If Russ doesn't care...

[WmHBonney]

I would take any article referencing Tom Brady's low salary in NE with a grain of salt. I would say with what is known about NE's willingness to do "whatever it takes" it is more likely than not that Brady received whatever the going rate for QB was in other ways.

It seems that I read in The Magazine once that Brady received a substantial amount of cash from the Patriots that wasn't included in his contract. Somehow, they wrote it up as coming from other sources or something. I can't remember the details, but if that article was true, then the Patriots simply found another loophole to take advantage of.

 

[rcaido]

Man some of you guys are just pathetic. Didnt improve. I guess 40 tds and over 4000 yards is underachieving. You guys are honestly the biggest bunch of crybaby losers I have ever seen. I guess your right though...avoiding an entire offensive scheme change he should have had 7000 yards on the season with 60 tds.
Some of you people on here...shouldnt even speak...with your low and very counter productive arguments.

Raw numbers, totals...he improved. By percentages...not really. The individual 2020 numbers are a result of more passing plays overall. His Comp%, TD%, Int%, Y/A, Y/C, Sack% are essentially all in line with his career averages. There is really little in the data to consider "improvement" over his entire career, actually. The gross production increase over time jives almost perfectly with his increase in pass attempts, over time, and NOT any per-pass-attempt "improvement". Because there is literally zero per-pass-attempt improvement over his entire career.

Comp% TD% INT% Y/A Y/C Sack%
2012: 64.1 6.6 2.5 7.9 12.4 7.7
careeer: 65.1 6.2 1.9 7.8 12.0 8.3
2020: 68.8 7.2 2.3 7.5 11.0 7.8

When you have data like this, with career averages bracketed on both ends by rookie and 2020 season averages....it's really, really difficult to make any argument about improvement over the course of a now 9-year career.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... lsRu00.htm

This is what improvement looks like in those exact same categories. (same website, this time for Josh Allen's 3-year career):

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... leJo02.htm

You really want to compare a guy who only had 3 season and 2 of the seasons were not good at all...To a guy playing high level for 9 seasons?

Marino first 4 years were his best, does that mean he was no longer hall fame qb who did not improve?

I'm not comparing the players, I'm comparing how they have improved over their careers. Comparing their improvement, their maturation, their growth...using basic QB metrics. Granted, Josh is only 3 years in...but over the course of those three seasons, he has absolutely, noticeably improved in all metrics mentioned above. Vast, huge strides from year 1 to year 2, then again from year 2 to year 3...to the point where his stats this season- with almost identical pass attempts as RW- have put him at at least the same level as RW, probably higher. He had a better season than RW in 2020 because he IMPROVED IMMENSELY over each of his first two seasons. IMMENSELY.

RW has not improved over the course of his career like this- he's just been able to throw the ball more often. His 2020 metrics aren't much different AT ALL than his ROOKIE 2012 campaign metrics. AND...his 9-year averages are all the same as well.

Sure he has improved at some aspects of his game...but the data doesn't lie: his actual production growth has only occurred because he is passing more often. All of his "per pass attempt" numbers are essentially the same every season. Almost zero improvement.

Lets look at Wilson Rookie season stats and compare that with top5 QBs career record
Wilson Comp% TD% INT% Y/A Y/C Sack%
2012: 64.1 6.6 2.5 7.9 12.4 7.7

Brady

COMP% 64
TD% 5.5
INT% 1.8
Y/A 7.5
Y/C 11.7
Sack % 4.7

Brees
COMP% 67.7
TD% 5.4
INT% 2.3
Y/A 7.7
Y/C 11.3
Sack % 3.8

Rodgers
COMP% 65.1
TD% 6.3
INT% 1.4
Y/A 7.8
Y/C 12
Sack % 6.6

Manning
COMP% 65.3
TD% 5.7
INT% 2.7
Y/A 7.7
Y/C 11.7
Sack % 3.1

Wilson rookie stats is comparable or even better than the best that played the game in last 20years. Since you say he has not improved, he would still be consider all time best when comparing stats. Wont even mention his rushing stats or his combackwins.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Not worth it, trust me.
Truly like clapping with one hand.

 

[AROS]

This is the most talent Russell's had around him in his entire tenure with the Hawks.

So I'm not buying what you're selling on this topic. Pete, Schotty and Russ, that's who's to blame for how terrible the offense has looked over the last half of the season.

They knew good defenses figured them out, and either they all were stubborn to change, or they failed miserably in how to change schematically and tactically to counteract what defenses were doing.

What we saw Saturday was the worst playoff loss in Pete's time here, and they all need to own whatever garbage game plan they rolled out.

Hell, even Adam Gase said he knew that the ONLY key to tell Darnold when they played the Rams was one thing and one thing only.................GET THE BALL OUT. So what do we do? Same stupid slow plodding run the playclock down predictable line up and get punched in the mouth by a far more talented and nasty defense play after play after play.

Just freaking awful gameplan and playcalling.

Spot. On. This is precisely how I feel. A stubborn refusal to adjust accordingly to what defenses were doing against us was the reason we were one and done this year. That's coaching.

 

[LoneHawkFan]

Raw numbers, totals...he improved. By percentages...not really. The individual 2020 numbers are a result of more passing plays overall. His Comp%, TD%, Int%, Y/A, Y/C, Sack% are essentially all in line with his career averages. There is really little in the data to consider "improvement" over his entire career, actually. The gross production increase over time jives almost perfectly with his increase in pass attempts, over time, and NOT any per-pass-attempt "improvement". Because there is literally zero per-pass-attempt improvement over his entire career.

Comp% TD% INT% Y/A Y/C Sack%
2012: 64.1 6.6 2.5 7.9 12.4 7.7
careeer: 65.1 6.2 1.9 7.8 12.0 8.3
2020: 68.8 7.2 2.3 7.5 11.0 7.8

When you have data like this, with career averages bracketed on both ends by rookie and 2020 season averages....it's really, really difficult to make any argument about improvement over the course of a now 9-year career.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... lsRu00.htm

This is what improvement looks like in those exact same categories. (same website, this time for Josh Allen's 3-year career):

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... leJo02.htm

You really want to compare a guy who only had 3 season and 2 of the seasons were not good at all...To a guy playing high level for 9 seasons?

Marino first 4 years were his best, does that mean he was no longer hall fame qb who did not improve?

I'm not comparing the players, I'm comparing how they have improved over their careers. Comparing their improvement, their maturation, their growth...using basic QB metrics. Granted, Josh is only 3 years in...but over the course of those three seasons, he has absolutely, noticeably improved in all metrics mentioned above. Vast, huge strides from year 1 to year 2, then again from year 2 to year 3...to the point where his stats this season- with almost identical pass attempts as RW- have put him at at least the same level as RW, probably higher. He had a better season than RW in 2020 because he IMPROVED IMMENSELY over each of his first two seasons. IMMENSELY.

RW has not improved over the course of his career like this- he's just been able to throw the ball more often. His 2020 metrics aren't much different AT ALL than his ROOKIE 2012 campaign metrics. AND...his 9-year averages are all the same as well.

Sure he has improved at some aspects of his game...but the data doesn't lie: his actual production growth has only occurred because he is passing more often. All of his "per pass attempt" numbers are essentially the same every season. Almost zero improvement.

Lets look at Wilson Rookie season stats and compare that with top5 QBs career record
Wilson Comp% TD% INT% Y/A Y/C Sack%
2012: 64.1 6.6 2.5 7.9 12.4 7.7

Brady

COMP% 64
TD% 5.5
INT% 1.8
Y/A 7.5
Y/C 11.7
Sack % 4.7

Brees
COMP% 67.7
TD% 5.4
INT% 2.3
Y/A 7.7
Y/C 11.3
Sack % 3.8

Rodgers
COMP% 65.1
TD% 6.3
INT% 1.4
Y/A 7.8
Y/C 12
Sack % 6.6

Manning
COMP% 65.3
TD% 5.7
INT% 2.7
Y/A 7.7
Y/C 11.7
Sack % 3.1

Wilson rookie stats is comparable or even better than the best that played the game in last 20years. Since you say he has not improved, he would still be consider all time best when comparing stats. Wont even mention his rushing stats or his combackwins.

You keep comparing players. I'm talking about answering the question:

"How much has Russell improved as a QB since 2012?"

You said he really improved this year. Did he? Or are his career best totals a product of merely making more pass attempts? I think its a fair analysis.

I believe that Russell is a stud. I was doing flips when we drafted him. I love Russ. I'm not a Russ hater...that being said...I started with a very basic exercise trying to determine how much better Russell Wilson is right now versus his rookie year. Because YOU prompted me to consider if he's really even improving.

I know all of his stats are great- upper echelon, elite. That isn't the argument. My argument is that he hasn't improved those metrics materially over the course of his 9-year career. So how do you determine if he is really a BETTER QB than he was in the SB run?

I want to know the answer to the above question. I want some hard evidence that says those metrics just don't tell the story. I'm a scientist; I deal with scientific data and data analysis all day, every day. I understand it, I know how to read into it. I know that when numbers like these don't change over the course of several iterations (seasons), that something is amiss. Why have none of these metrics improved materially over the course of his career?

 

[rcaido]

You really want to compare a guy who only had 3 season and 2 of the seasons were not good at all...To a guy playing high level for 9 seasons?

Marino first 4 years were his best, does that mean he was no longer hall fame qb who did not improve?

I'm not comparing the players, I'm comparing how they have improved over their careers. Comparing their improvement, their maturation, their growth...using basic QB metrics. Granted, Josh is only 3 years in...but over the course of those three seasons, he has absolutely, noticeably improved in all metrics mentioned above. Vast, huge strides from year 1 to year 2, then again from year 2 to year 3...to the point where his stats this season- with almost identical pass attempts as RW- have put him at at least the same level as RW, probably higher. He had a better season than RW in 2020 because he IMPROVED IMMENSELY over each of his first two seasons. IMMENSELY.

RW has not improved over the course of his career like this- he's just been able to throw the ball more often. His 2020 metrics aren't much different AT ALL than his ROOKIE 2012 campaign metrics. AND...his 9-year averages are all the same as well.

Sure he has improved at some aspects of his game...but the data doesn't lie: his actual production growth has only occurred because he is passing more often. All of his "per pass attempt" numbers are essentially the same every season. Almost zero improvement.

Lets look at Wilson Rookie season stats and compare that with top5 QBs career record
Wilson Comp% TD% INT% Y/A Y/C Sack%
2012: 64.1 6.6 2.5 7.9 12.4 7.7

Brady

COMP% 64
TD% 5.5
INT% 1.8
Y/A 7.5
Y/C 11.7
Sack % 4.7

Brees
COMP% 67.7
TD% 5.4
INT% 2.3
Y/A 7.7
Y/C 11.3
Sack % 3.8

Rodgers
COMP% 65.1
TD% 6.3
INT% 1.4
Y/A 7.8
Y/C 12
Sack % 6.6

Manning
COMP% 65.3
TD% 5.7
INT% 2.7
Y/A 7.7
Y/C 11.7
Sack % 3.1

Wilson rookie stats is comparable or even better than the best that played the game in last 20years. Since you say he has not improved, he would still be consider all time best when comparing stats. Wont even mention his rushing stats or his combackwins.

You keep comparing players. I'm talking about answering the question:

"How much has Russell improved as a QB since 2012?"

You said he really improved this year. Did he? Or are his career best totals a product of merely making more pass attempts? I think its a fair analysis.

I believe that Russell is a stud. I was doing flips when we drafted him. I love Russ. I'm not a Russ hater...that being said...I started with a very basic exercise trying to determine how much better Russell Wilson is right now versus his rookie year. Because YOU prompted me to consider if he's really even improving.

I know all of his stats are great- upper echelon, elite. That isn't the argument. My argument is that he hasn't improved those metrics materially over the course of his 9-year career. So how do you determine if he is really a BETTER QB than he was in the SB run?

I want to know the answer to the above question. I want some hard evidence that says those metrics just don't tell the story. I'm a scientist; I deal with scientific data and data analysis all day, every day. I understand it, I know how to read into it. I know that when numbers like these don't change over the course of several iterations (seasons), that something is amiss. Why have none of these metrics improved materially over the course of his career?

You're trying to compare 1 season his rookie season, which most QBs dont have very good ones at that. Wilson just happens to be great as soon as he entered the league. For scientist i dont understand why you would try to do that. If anything, why not his first 5 years. Wouldn't that make more sense? Or better yet his 3years as a so called "game manager" to this season...Ill do both for scientific reasons

First 5 years

Comp% 64.2 vs 68.8%
TD% 5.64 vs 7.2
INT% 1.98 vs 2.3
Y/A 8.0 vs 7.5
Y/C 12.38 vs 11
Sack% 8.6 vs 7.8


First 3 years as "game manager
63.4 vs 68.8
5.8 vs 7.2
2 vs 2.3
7.9 vs 7.5
12.5 vs 11
8.6 vs 7.8

You dont think those are improvements? Almost 5% more accurate, way better TD ratio? This without Lynch, so main focus is on Wilson...Crappy oline...

 

[OrangeGravy]

I would take any article referencing Tom Brady's low salary in NE with a grain of salt. I would say with what is known about NE's willingness to do "whatever it takes" it is more likely than not that Brady received whatever the going rate for QB was in other ways.

I don't think there's any doubt about that. His company had a "contract" with the team for some service that I don't recall off hand. How that is allowable is beyond me. A player shouldn't be able to be compensated in any other way by the team, period. Maybe there is no rule covering something like that. If so, every org should be setting that up yesterday with their franchise QBs.

 

[Scorpion05]

I second that using Tom Brady is a poor example!

As much as I couldn't stand the Patriots, there's important difference between Russ and Tom Brady:

Tom put his ego aside and took $20 LESS per year for the good of his team. This article specifically states Tom Brady's $15 million salary versus Russell Wilson's 35 million:

https://www.businessinsider.com/tom-bra ... mel-2019-5

Tom recognized the financial aspect of the salary cap and said it was worth taking less money and paying for good players around him. An added benefit would be enhanced loyalty by teammates not to mention setting an example of "Team first".

I didn't like the Patriots but I respect that Tom put his money where is mouth was. Like he says in the article, "How much money do you really need?"

I also like his modesty regarding publicity and appreciate his dedication to football. He seems to be a private person and not trying to glam it up with constant media contributions via social posts.

His wife is a 10 figure Super Model. Russell is a player trying to change the fortunes of his family for generations to come. These two things are not the same.

Brady got a fully guaranteed, 50 million contract from the Bucs. Him taking less money wasn’t about his ego, it was about what the Patriots required. The Patriots will never pay a QB top dollar with Belichick. This narrative is especially tired because EVERY..OTHER..QB in the league has taken top money. Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees. So unless you just want to hold Wilson to a double standard it’s a completely silly argument.

 

[Scorpion05]

The LOB called Wilson out for being the coach pet.

What did Wilson in was getting too close to Paul Allen.

Wilson started aspiring to be Allen instead of a great football player. Then came tons of startups, projects, etc.

You can do that stuff. Montana did a ton of startups, interviews, etc. But he did it after his career was done and he did it after the regular season.

Brady does it all the time, but he EARNED that right. Wilson has not earned it.

The day Wilson starts to make demands and publicly rebuke/shake off Pete - is the day we get better.

But it is hard to demand attention, focus, and greatness from your teammates for the playoffs when you don't do those things.

The LOB was right about Wilson. So was Lynch. Wilson was coddled and he dutifully followed Pete even when it hurt the team.

Is does not mean that Wilson is not amazing. Just that he lost the chance to really take that next step. A number of other QBs have now passed him. He isn't close to the #2 QB now. Maybe #4. Mahomes, Allen, and Rodgers are all above him now and by a large margin.

He is now on the downside of his career and really only has 2 SB that are more the product of a great defense and incredible run game than him. He never really reached that Aaron Rodgers / Joe Montana / Steve Young level of carrying a team to the SB as the primary weapon.

Which is still the greatest QB in Seahawk history, just a little bit of a bummer because yes he left that on the table.

The LOB calling Wilson a coach’s pet, too close to Allen, etc. has far more to do with players who expect black quarterbacks to behave a certain way. To be “part of them,” and not “above them.” Hence the “not black enough” claim, which far too many of you don’t seem to be as disturbed by. I guarantee none of those players would have ever said something like that about Matt Flynn, let alone Aaron Rodgers. Hence, most QBs are expected to be above the team. Including Trevor Lawrence and most QBs that will be drafted.

McNabb and Wilson are the only ones to have this nastiness thrown at them. Cam Newton, Lamar, Vick were all “cool enough” though. So no, the attacks on Wilson from the LOB were 100% bs. He is, and always has been a high character person for us.

 

[evergreen]

The problem with all the stats is that right now, or the last half of the season we all saw him not be awesome. Period.

That's a tough pill to swallow. He can't just start sucking, but the eye test is there. It's not Pete keeping hime from hitting open receivers quickly. I know he has his limitations, but he's Benn ice cold. He's a cooler now. Man we better hope he gets right again.

There is the historical trend and Russ is a very big common denominator in all our playoff losses since 2013. He's done a great job of not being labeled by that fateful play. He should get more credit against Minnesota in 2015 because that play he made on the high snap is incredible and I think his finest playoff play after the glory years.

 

[Scorpion05]

If Wilson had the talent surrounding him that the Rams do he would be so much better. Running for your life every play gets old. If Pete and John cared and worked as hard as Wilson, we wouldn't have lost the the Rams Saturday.

As good as Rus is a a NFL QB, he is an even better person and outstanding role model for young people everywhere.

The people who say "we don't know this" or "we don't know this is true" truly don't believe that an offensive coach...who would draft mainly for the offense, investing in the O-line. They really don't believe Russ would succeed in that situation. It's absurd.

 

[Chapow]

I second that using Tom Brady is a poor example!

As much as I couldn't stand the Patriots, there's important difference between Russ and Tom Brady:

Tom put his ego aside and took $20 LESS per year for the good of his team. This article specifically states Tom Brady's $15 million salary versus Russell Wilson's 35 million:

https://www.businessinsider.com/tom-bra ... mel-2019-5

Tom recognized the financial aspect of the salary cap and said it was worth taking less money and paying for good players around him. An added benefit would be enhanced loyalty by teammates not to mention setting an example of "Team first".

I didn't like the Patriots but I respect that Tom put his money where is mouth was. Like he says in the article, "How much money do you really need?"

I also like his modesty regarding publicity and appreciate his dedication to football. He seems to be a private person and not trying to glam it up with constant media contributions via social posts.

We've been over this before...

Please see this thread http://www.seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=153442

And here is my response in that thread to the question "Should Russell Wilson Take A Tom Brady Like Deal?"

Sure, and then the Seahawks should just do what the Patriots do with Tom Brady since apparently that's completely fine.

The Patriots, in an unusual departure from National Football League practice, have created a revenue stream for a private business owned by their franchise quarterback, Tom Brady, and a partner who faced federal sanctions after falsely presenting himself as a medical doctor and deceptively promoting nutritional supplements.

The NFL says it is aware of the arrangement and has taken no action, despite questions from some specialists in sports law and economics about whether teams should pay for services by for-profit companies owned by their active players and whether the relationship provides value to Brady that should be counted against the club’s salary cap.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015 ... story.html

Just sign Wilson to a way below market value contract but pay companies he owns for their "goods and services" however much the difference would be between his contract and his actual market value.




What?

You all thought Brady was actually playing for far below his market value so that the Patriots would have more money to pay other players, thus making it possible to field a better team and have a better shot a championships out of the goodness of his heart? Or because he cares about winning more than making his full market value?

:lol:

Nope. Brady is still getting his. And with this "arrangement" nobody really knows how much he is getting from the Patriots. And apparently the NFL doesn't care.

Gotta wonder how that would go over with the NFL if the Texans tried pulling that with Watson, or the Chiefs tried it with Mahomes, or the Seahawks tried it with Russ.

You're right about one thing though, Tom Brady is a very smart man. He's got a lot of people fooled. :2thumbs:

 

[HawkRiderFan]

Re, the post above, that is why I roll my eyes so much then that Tom Brady sacrificed for the team narrative pops up. Re the outside interests hurting Russ. For anyone who truly believes that why did his play start declining when he started the podcast? I heard Bill Simmons and Cousin Sal joke that Bill jinxed Russ cause his stats starting going down after being on Bills show, and at that point Russ had been doing his for a while. I did fear when I first heard Russ was doing a podcast that if the offense started going south there would be a backlash.

If the Rams swarm the Packers O this weekend and Rodgers is inneffective I doubt because he goes on the Pat McAfee show every Tuesday.

 

[John63]

This whole thread is garbage. I bunch of people who have always hated Wilson and now are making crap up they cant prove. What next Wilson is the reason it rains.