Holy Crap: Browns nearly traded with 49ers for Jim Harbaugh

[Popeyejones]

As for the appearance of instability, I'd be lying if I said that didn't concern me. It does. I think Harbaugh gets extended, but I have no idea what's gonna happen between Baalke and Harbaugh. Does Harbaugh leave? Does Baalke? Do they just hate each other but continue to work together anyway? Does the whole thing get blown up? Is it overblown?

Who knows. Makes me nervous though.

Sure does, and it should make any 9ers fans nervous.

FWIW in the short term I think Harbaugh is more important than Baalke and Paraag, but in the long term I think it's the reverse.*

If it comes down to one side having to leave, I'm going to always be a 9ers fan, so I'm more interested in the long term and want Harbaugh gone.

Likewise, Hawks fans want the 9ers as ineffective as possible during this run, so of the sides they'd probably want Harbaugh gone too if it comes to that.

This might be something we can all agree on.



*The thinking here: I think success and failure in drafting (hits and busts) are more or less random events. I don't believe in draft whisperers, and like people do with almost all decision making under uncertainty I think they overestimate the "magic touch" of some individuals over others based on limited data and confirmation bias. Basically past some certain threshold (which almost every NFL decision maker is probably over now that Al Davis is gone) probability is MUCH, MUCH more important than ability. Instead, you want to look at strategy. I adore Paraag and Trent's approach to the salary cap and draft. I think it's an exceptional long-term strategy. It also significantly butts up against Harbaugh priorities, as he wants to be compensated what he's worth and this year is more important than next year, and MUCH more important than five years down the line to him (e.g. Stop trading back and stockpiling picks, I need talent now! Stop trying to get later value by drafting injusted redshirt players, I need talent now!).

 

[volsunghawk]

Either way, the entire Niner organization takes on the appearance of instability, which is just fine with me. Even if Harbaugh signs an extension in San Fran, every single time he acts the ass, every perceived disagreement with Baalke, every disagreement with the media takes on extra signifigance. I love it.

It certainly smells like something fishy in that front office. It never really came to light why they abruptly dismissed Scot McCloughan either. York mostly dodged the media on that topic. It came out that it was due to “personal” reasons. But it was also speculated at the time that Marathe, York’s personal advisor, wanted more power in personnel decisions.

The 49ers have never been specific, but the rumors out here were that he had issues with Alcohol. He supposedly showed up late to the combine and was drunk in meetings.

Maybe working with Baalke is so difficult that McCloughan had to drink to stand it.

Maybe Harbaugh's actually a saint and all those ridiculous faces he makes are just the result of him trying to deal with Baalke! :mrgreen: :stirthepot:

/packs bags and prepares to get booted off of .NET

 

[Popeyejones]

With McCloughan, they just never specified what happened. It was always the rumor that there were substance issues with Scot but the 49ers of course never commented on it.

Nobody on the team ever said anything publicly about it (nor should they have!), but I thought that all leaked out?

He had a major alcohol problem and was missing things, showing up late to things, and showing up drunk to things. Along with this he was also having an affair that was tearing apart his home life to the point where it was effecting his work life.

Haven't heard a word of any problems since he went to Seattle, so assuming he's in recovery and got his life back on track, I'm happy for him.

 

[Marvin49]

Either way, the entire Niner organization takes on the appearance of instability, which is just fine with me. Even if Harbaugh signs an extension in San Fran, every single time he acts the ass, every perceived disagreement with Baalke, every disagreement with the media takes on extra signifigance. I love it.

It certainly smells like something fishy in that front office. It never really came to light why they abruptly dismissed Scot McCloughan either. York mostly dodged the media on that topic. It came out that it was due to “personal” reasons. But it was also speculated at the time that Marathe, York’s personal advisor, wanted more power in personnel decisions.

The 49ers have never been specific, but the rumors out here were that he had issues with Alcohol. He supposedly showed up late to the combine and was drunk in meetings.

Maybe working with Baalke is so difficult that McCloughan had to drink to stand it.

Maybe Harbaugh's actually a saint and all those ridiculous faces he makes are just the result of him trying to deal with Baalke! :mrgreen: :stirthepot:

/packs bags and prepares to get booted off of .NET

I'll say this...I was NOT happy when McCloughan was let go. He had his misses too (Kentwan Balmer), but he largely drafted and signed very well in SF. My guess is that at some point he'll be a GM again.

 

[Marvin49]

With McCloughan, they just never specified what happened. It was always the rumor that there were substance issues with Scot but the 49ers of course never commented on it.

Nobody on the team ever said anything publicly about it (nor should they have!), but I thought that all leaked out?

He had a major alcohol problem and was missing things, showing up late to things, and showing up drunk to things. Along with this he was also having an affair that was tearing apart his home life to the point where it was effecting his work life.

Haven't heard a word of any problems since he went to Seattle, so assuming he's in recovery and got his life back on track, I'm happy for him.

Correct on all counts.

It's just never been verified though and I'm sure nobody would ever speak on the record about it.

 

[rigelian]

Where does Jim get off thinking he should be the highest paid coach in the league when he hasn't attained the highest victory?

If you want to be paid as the best, you need to actually be the best at some point.

Because he's Jim "Fricken" Harbaugh that's why. Besides if they don't come through with the cash he's going to whine about it until they cave.

 

[rigelian]

Peter King's only source is York. So, he's basically just parroting what York is spreading through Niner-approved media.

Mike Sando heard rumblings of "sensational stories" about the Niners before PFT broke their story:

A high-ranking NFL personnel evaluator I ran across at the NFL scouting combine Thursday morning said he was hearing sensational stories about the San Francisco 49ers. He would not elaborate because the stories were unsubstantiated, but we can assume at least one of them found its way into the news over the weekend.

There is sensational, and then there is trade-the-head-coach sensational. Harbaugh to the Cleveland Browns by trade? The 49ers initially denied ever discussing such a transaction. The Browns issued a non-denial before their owner, Jimmy Haslam, confirmed that such discussions took place. The particulars matter less at this point than the gathering idea that Harbaugh might not be part of the longer-term future for San Francisco. It's no secret that Harbaugh and the team's executives have been unable to make progress toward a contract extension amid rumblings of friction.

So essentially York is a big fat liar and the model organization in Cleveland who's been through several head coaches, just fired most of their front office, and has an owner under indictment are the ones who are the bastions of truth.

Right.

Minus new information, I think we might have taken this conversation as far as it can go.

One could easily conclude that York isn't lying but is being rather diplomatic or even lawyer like in the use of his language. The blanket claim that the story isn't true could be based on a simple disagreement about what it means to seriously consider an offer etc.

As for the Cleveland organization, you are right... they are an organization filled with questions in their front office and ownership. However, I see the 49ers having a much higher incentive to discredit this story than the Browns have to lie about it. I mean, how does this story help the Browns?

 

[Marvin49]

Peter King's only source is York. So, he's basically just parroting what York is spreading through Niner-approved media.

Mike Sando heard rumblings of "sensational stories" about the Niners before PFT broke their story:

A high-ranking NFL personnel evaluator I ran across at the NFL scouting combine Thursday morning said he was hearing sensational stories about the San Francisco 49ers. He would not elaborate because the stories were unsubstantiated, but we can assume at least one of them found its way into the news over the weekend.

There is sensational, and then there is trade-the-head-coach sensational. Harbaugh to the Cleveland Browns by trade? The 49ers initially denied ever discussing such a transaction. The Browns issued a non-denial before their owner, Jimmy Haslam, confirmed that such discussions took place. The particulars matter less at this point than the gathering idea that Harbaugh might not be part of the longer-term future for San Francisco. It's no secret that Harbaugh and the team's executives have been unable to make progress toward a contract extension amid rumblings of friction.

So essentially York is a big fat liar and the model organization in Cleveland who's been through several head coaches, just fired most of their front office, and has an owner under indictment are the ones who are the bastions of truth.

Right.

Minus new information, I think we might have taken this conversation as far as it can go.

One could easily conclude that York isn't lying but is being rather diplomatic or even lawyer like in the use of his language. The blanket claim that the story isn't true could be based on a simple disagreement about what it means to seriously consider an offer etc.

As for the Cleveland organization, you are right... they are an organization filled with questions in their front office and ownership. However, I see the 49ers having a much higher incentive to discredit this story than the Browns have to lie about it. I mean, how does this story help the Browns?

Thats EXACTLY what I thought...

...Until Haslem confirmed the "opportunity". Why even answer the question? The only thing that makes any sense is if he thinks that them having a chance at a big name coach makes the organization look better.

 

[rigelian]

Peter King's only source is York. So, he's basically just parroting what York is spreading through Niner-approved media.

Mike Sando heard rumblings of "sensational stories" about the Niners before PFT broke their story:

A high-ranking NFL personnel evaluator I ran across at the NFL scouting combine Thursday morning said he was hearing sensational stories about the San Francisco 49ers. He would not elaborate because the stories were unsubstantiated, but we can assume at least one of them found its way into the news over the weekend.

There is sensational, and then there is trade-the-head-coach sensational. Harbaugh to the Cleveland Browns by trade? The 49ers initially denied ever discussing such a transaction. The Browns issued a non-denial before their owner, Jimmy Haslam, confirmed that such discussions took place. The particulars matter less at this point than the gathering idea that Harbaugh might not be part of the longer-term future for San Francisco. It's no secret that Harbaugh and the team's executives have been unable to make progress toward a contract extension amid rumblings of friction.

So essentially York is a big fat liar and the model organization in Cleveland who's been through several head coaches, just fired most of their front office, and has an owner under indictment are the ones who are the bastions of truth.

Right.

Minus new information, I think we might have taken this conversation as far as it can go.

One could easily conclude that York isn't lying but is being rather diplomatic or even lawyer like in the use of his language. The blanket claim that the story isn't true could be based on a simple disagreement about what it means to seriously consider an offer etc.

As for the Cleveland organization, you are right... they are an organization filled with questions in their front office and ownership. However, I see the 49ers having a much higher incentive to discredit this story than the Browns have to lie about it. I mean, how does this story help the Browns?

Thats EXACTLY what I thought...

...Until Haslem confirmed the "opportunity". Why even answer the question? The only thing that makes any sense is if he thinks that them having a chance at a big name coach makes the organization look better.

My guess would be that Haslem or someone else high up in the organization was the initial leak. That when York provided the denial he had to confirm the initial story to maintain his credibility. Because of the incentives I think the story has some basis.

 

[Popeyejones]

Where does Jim get off thinking he should be the highest paid coach in the league when he hasn't attained the highest victory?

If you want to be paid as the best, you need to actually be the best at some point.

Fair question but any agent who is asking for what he's actually hoping to get is a really crappy agent.

I have to imagine they're asking for "top" and want top 5.

Likewise, given that a) he has been underpaid and took significantly less money over the last three years to coach the 9ers than he could have gotten w/ the Dolphins, and b) he was quite literally two end-of-game plays away from three SB appearances in three years and one more end-of-game play away from at least one SB win with those three appearances I'm totally fine with them making him the highest paid coach in the league*, and think they should.**

I'd say the same thing for PC if the Hawks came up a bit short rather than blowing out the Broncs this year. You pay for what you think someone will achieve, not retroactively for what they have achieved, and regardless of what happened against the Broncs all signs are pointing positive for the PC led Hawks.

*This is of course bracketing out the wild card of internal relationships. If your coach and your GM won't speak to each other and everyone in the FO blames the coach, that of course adds a variable, to say the least.

* "should" != "will." I suspect John York is the exact same team ruining cheapskate he has always been, and fully believe that the "he hasn't won a SB" is just BS, and that if the pass to Crabs against Baltimore was completed Harbaugh would still be getting low-balled by John York.

 

[Popeyejones]

Going big picture for a second, I think the important part of this story worth considering is that in the last six months two college teams and a pro team have gone after Harbaugh. If that's about money, about relationships, or both, there have been enough sharks circling the water to know that there's certainly some trouble in paradise. We can get bogged down in the details of each case as much as we want, but in the very least three teams have sniffed around a coach who is under contract for two more years. That's atypical. That tells us something.

 

[DavidSeven]

His achievements are somewhat clouded by the fact that he walked into an absolutely loaded roster. Certainly, he is a very good coach who helped turn Alex Smith's career around and then launched Kaepernick. However, he's an offensive coach who has won games for three years through his studs on defense. Not to take anything away from him -- I definitely hope he leaves the division. But does he deserve to be paid like the best? I don't know, but I can't really blame Baalke and York for hesitating, especially if he isn't the easiest guy to work with.

 

[Marvin49]

So essentially York is a big fat liar and the model organization in Cleveland who's been through several head coaches, just fired most of their front office, and has an owner under indictment are the ones who are the bastions of truth.

Right.

Minus new information, I think we might have taken this conversation as far as it can go.

One could easily conclude that York isn't lying but is being rather diplomatic or even lawyer like in the use of his language. The blanket claim that the story isn't true could be based on a simple disagreement about what it means to seriously consider an offer etc.

As for the Cleveland organization, you are right... they are an organization filled with questions in their front office and ownership. However, I see the 49ers having a much higher incentive to discredit this story than the Browns have to lie about it. I mean, how does this story help the Browns?

Thats EXACTLY what I thought...

...Until Haslem confirmed the "opportunity". Why even answer the question? The only thing that makes any sense is if he thinks that them having a chance at a big name coach makes the organization look better.

My guess would be that Haslem or someone else high up in the organization was the initial leak. That when York provided the denial he had to confirm the initial story to maintain his credibility. Because of the incentives I think the story has some basis.

I suppose that's possible, but seems like a stretch.

I'm sure thaere was some basis for the story BTW. I'm sure the topic was discussed, but I think the level of interest from the Browns was FAR greater than the level of interest for the 49ers.

If Shefter is to be believed, the Browns didn't even offer a 1st round pick.

I seriously think the trade stuff is much ado about nothing, but that the underlying issues in regards to Harbaugh/Baalke are real.

Lost all respect I ever had for Florio BTW. Now he's attacking Jed York and saying that reporters essentially give him a pass. If you read all of Florios comments on this he's really making himself look like an a$$.

First he made the claim and said the 49ers couldn't make an official denial because the story was true. Then York responds with "report isn't true" he's silent for hours. When Haslem says there was an "opportunity" Florio goes on the attack again calling that a "confirmation". What kind of freakin reporting is that?

Now he's attacking York. York is saying that the report that the "deal was in place" and that Harbaugh nixed it isn't true...so his tweet is correct.

Florio needs to chill. He's turning into TMZ.

The worst part? When I posted on his site on his article saying essentially that Yorks comments were true, HE DELETED THE COMMENT FROM HIS COMMENT SECTION. He only leaves the people there who are calling York a liar.

Its his site and his decision what message is delivered there, but I'll certainly be keeping that in mind everytime I read something he writes about any other team.

Just look at what he left in the comments section....

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... nt-3180265

 

[Scottemojo]

Where does Jim get off thinking he should be the highest paid coach in the league when he hasn't attained the highest victory?

If you want to be paid as the best, you need to actually be the best at some point.

Fair question but any agent who is asking for what he's actually hoping to get is a really crappy agent.

I have to imagine they're asking for "top" and want top 5.

Likewise, given that a) he has been underpaid and took significantly less money over the last three years to coach the 9ers than he could have gotten w/ the Dolphins, and b) he was quite literally two end-of-game plays away from three SB appearances in three years and one more end-of-game play away from at least one SB win with those three appearances I'm totally fine with them making him the highest paid coach in the league*, and think they should.**

I'd say the same thing for PC if the Hawks came up a bit short rather than blowing out the Broncs this year. You pay for what you think someone will achieve, not retroactively for what they have achieved, and regardless of what happened against the Broncs all signs are pointing positive for the PC led Hawks.

*This is of course bracketing out the wild card of internal relationships. If your coach and your GM won't speak to each other and everyone in the FO blames the coach, that of course adds a variable, to say the least.

* "should" != "will." I suspect John York is the exact same team ruining cheapskate he has always been, and fully believe that the "he hasn't won a SB" is just BS, and that if the pass to Crabs against Baltimore was completed Harbaugh would still be getting low-balled by John York.

How was Harbaugh underpaid at 5 mil per with no pro experience as a HC? And no GM duties? Compared to many first time head coaches, that was a damn fine contract. Singletary had been making 2.5 mil per.

 

[Popeyejones]

How was Harbaugh underpaid at 5 mil per with no pro experience as a HC? And no GM duties? Compared to many first time head coaches, that was a damn fine contract. Singletary had been making 2.5 mil per.

I think about it two ways:

1) He was underpaid by definition given that the Dolphins would have paid him significantly more.

2) We can compare Pete Carroll and Jim Harbaugh.

*Caroll had already flamed out in the NFL, was coming off a 5-4 season in the Pac 10 and #22 ranking, a close win in the Emerald bowl, and was in need of an escape hatch b/c USC had been banned from bowl games for two years and had 30 scholarships taken away. He got 6.7 million per from the Hawks.

* Harbaugh was coming off an 8-1 season in the Pac 10, a #4 national ranking, a blow-out win in the Orange Bowl, and already had the best QB in the nation committed for another season. He got 5 million per year.

I think at the time Harbaugh was a more valuable commodity than Carroll* (the Dolphins obviously thought so too) so by definition either Carroll was overpaid or Harbaugh was underpaid. I go with the later.

*"at the time" being key. Carroll has of course proven to be verrrrrrry valuable.

 

[Scottemojo]

Not even close. As a secondary coach, Pete had known NFL chops. Carroll was also team president, plays the head role in personnel, helped select the GM, and had a pretty damn big contract already at his college.

Also, on point one. If they offered more in Miami, he should have taken that job. Or made San Fran offer more. Can't call him underpaid when he didn't have to take the offer.

Define crazy: Takes lower offer, then claims to be underpaid.

 

[kearly]

Like Scott, I think Harbaugh's deal was fair at the time it happened. Greg Schiano was hired from the college ranks and made just $3 million per year in the NFL. Bobby Petrino was a highly coveted college coach when he went to Atlanta, who paid him $4.8 million per. Nick Saban signed for roughly $4.5 million a year. Paying $5 million per year for a guy with a very good but also very short college coaching resume is more than fair.

Really the only college HC I can find who's paid significantly more than Harbaugh is Carroll, and Carroll had a ton of NFL experience. Not just as a two-time HC, but as a highly accomplished NFL assistant coach going back to the 80s. There is also the important detail that Seattle was more than a little desperate when they signed Carroll, and Carroll had been rejecting NFL offers for years, it wasn't exactly a position of bargaining that called for lowballing. Especially not with a billionaire owner who had been diagnosed with cancer two months prior.

 

[DavidSeven]

Carroll was far more valued coming out of college. He was the biggest name in CFB. He was Nick Saban, but even more idolized and with a better track record within the NFL ranks. He was coming off a decade-long run of dominance, which resulted in multiple National Titles. Turned down multiple offers for NFL jobs, including from the 49ers themselves. There's a reason why Paul Allen gave him complete control over the organization.

Harbaugh had a great run at Stanford, but it was short, and he was still viewed as an up-and-comer.

 

[drdiags]

The number of leaks in the various organizations is another issue, though these leaks can be used to push an agenda. Not sure how the 9ers talks with Jim H will turn out but I am sure if I was a fan I would hope the side-show ended soon. Otherwise the attention will remain on this issue all off-season, until the next shiny object shows up.

"Until the next shiny object shows up? Shiny object? They haven't had a shiny object show up there since the mid-90s. With this dysfunction, who knows how long it'll be before the next one does.

Thinking more about new stories that will have the NFL community all abuzz. Last off-season it was the "Arms race". This year it was Michael Sam, now Harbaugh. Until something new and shinier shows up, would imagine this story gets told several times over.

 

[Evil_Shenanigans]

Misplayed the game of coaching musical chairs. Alienated an organization in doing so. And now he's stuck. Bad JuJu!