Ge=nooooo!

[SoulfishHawk]

#=trash comment.
Let's see Ge-noooo hit one of our wide receivers I stride for a change, so dk locket and jsn don't have to make a spectacular catch to make him look good.

You mean like that laser over the middle on 3rd down to JSN? IN STRIDE. Now you're just making stuff up.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

61/94 659 yards, 6 TDs, 1 INT 102.2 passer rating

That's Geno in 2.5 games behind our starting O-line this year.

Boy, look at those horrible numbers. Clearly Geno is "trash"

This thread makes a Fade take look good.

 

[Ozzy]

Well it's a little bit of both. 17 touchdowns and 9 picks and we have two games left. Is that really a statline that makes any criticism of him a terrible take? I also think people are being a little tough on him(myself included at times) because like Soulfish above points out when the line is healthy he's played well and he's also had some very good games. This debate has turned into every other debate that has two sides. Never conceeding an ounce to the other side and its us vs them. Social media and "P's" have ruined discourse.

 

[LastRideOut]

Again another reply from a stat guy that has Ge-noooo as his avatar. Go figure ️

What does Russ do in the vid post #77? With a free rusher running at him?

A. Take the sack
B. Take the sack
C. Run around in circles, then take the sack
D. Take the sack


Hmmm tough one, I think I'll go with C.

 

[Welshers2]

Again another reply from a stat guy that has Ge-noooo as his avatar. Go figure ️

Are you really so miserable that you have to go on a message board to write insults about a QB after he leads a team you're supposedly a fan of on a game winning drive? Sad!

 

[SoulfishHawk]

This ^^^

Winning sucks!!!! I'll say it again, I think some people WANT players to fail so they can pump their chests out and say "I told you"

How pathetic.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Well it's a little bit of both. 17 touchdowns and 9 picks and we have two games left. Is that really a statline that makes any criticism of him a terrible take? I also think people are being a little tough on him(myself included at times) because like Soulfish above points out when the line is healthy he's played well and he's also had some very good games. This debate has turned into every other debate that has two sides. Never conceeding an ounce to the other side and its us vs them. Social media and "P's" have ruined discourse.

Most of the Geno praise in this thread has just been an attempt to disprove outlandish claims about Geno's perceived futility, as in "he cannot operate under pressure," or "he takes more sacks than he has a right to," or "Geno cannot hit receivers in stride."

This puts reasonable people who don't think Geno is above reproach or the best quarterback alive into a corner because they have to be constantly like "that's... literally just not true" and defend him.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Good points. He's absolutely better than I ever expected, and that's a good thing. While I'd like to see him AND the offense get a hell of a lot better in the red zone, he still got it done when it mattered. Some of those throws were absolute nails. Claiming he can't hit guys in stride just flat out isn't true.
Look how many crossers he throws on the money. IN STRIDE.

 

[Ozzy]

Most of the Geno praise in this thread has just been an attempt to disprove outlandish claims about Geno's perceived futility, as in "he cannot operate under pressure," or "he takes more sacks than he has a right to," or "Geno cannot hit receivers in stride."

This puts reasonable people who don't think Geno is above reproach or the best quarterback alive into a corner because they have to be constantly like "that's... literally just not true" and defend him.

Nah that's giving your side of the debate all the benefit of the doubt and none to the other side which doesn't foster honest dialogue either.

17 touchdowns in 15 games is just not good. I know someone claimed earlier touchdown numbers is an archaic way to judge a QB but is it really? No. He's been VERY average and anyone on either polar end of the spectrum is just as wrong as the other end. We have some hope as he's been better when the line is healthy and like I've said a few times I sort of expect Geno to ball out these last two weeks. Saying he's "average" accounts for his excellent games which he has and some of his bad games as well. He's obviously capable of playing very well, saying he's average doesn't mean that's not true.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Average QB who can be pretty damn good when he's on. Limited expectations from either of your QB's. Doesn't mean he sucks. Doesn't mean people don't like him.
QB is the most scrutinized position in football, always will be. He has his moments, we need more. That's not a shot at him at all. Just hope that we get more.
Four good quarters of football on a consistent basis. Then again, how often do we see that under Pete?

 

[Ozzy]

Average QB who can be pretty damn good when he's on. Limited expectations from either of your QB's. Doesn't mean he sucks. Doesn't mean people don't like him.
QB is the most scrutinized position in football, always will be. He has his moments, we need more. That's not a shot at him at all. Just hope that we get more.
Four good quarters of football on a consistent basis. Then again, how often do we see that under Pete?

THis is pretty spot on.

 

[knownone]

Total TDs are a terrible way to evaluate QB performance. Full stop. Is 17 TDs great? No. Geno's per/game TD pace is about average. However, his efficiency, on the whole, is above average. Efficiency in any system is a better performance measurement than a volatile metric like TD passes.

 

[Ozzy]

Total TDs are a terrible way to evaluate QB performance. Full stop. Is 17 TDs great? No. Geno's per/game TD pace is about average. However, his efficiency, on the whole, is above average. Efficiency in any system is a better performance measurement than a volatile metric like TD passes.

You can't just say full stop touchdowns are a terrible measuring stick when the vast majority would disagree. In today's modern NFL no one throws 20 touchdowns for a season and is considered a top 7-8 or even top 10.

What are you using to say he's well above average? Not being snarky honestly curious. QBR? 14th, average. Passer rating? 17th. Slighty below average. Completion %? 16th slightly below. TD/INT ratio? 10th slightly above although we're also claiming touchdowns aren't a good measuring stick.

Also in the Purdy debate you argued his efficiency numbers aren't a good indicator of how good he is right? If I misunderstood you then let me know.

To make this easier I think Geno is in the 14-20 range overall which is where most metrics seem to put him and hopefully if the line gets right he has an outside shot of being in the 10-14 range for me which is good. Do you think that's ridiculous?

 

[Fresno Hawk]

Are you really so miserable that you have to go on a message board to write insults about a QB after he leads a team you're supposedly a fan of on a game winning drive? Sad!

So now I'm miserable because I think the guy is trash ok, and supposedly a fan. Right, that makes alot of sense.

 

[Fresno Hawk]

What does Russ do in the vid post #77? With a free rusher running at him?

A. Take the sack
B. Take the sack
C. Run around in circles, then take the sack
D. Take the sack


Hmmm tough one, I think I'll go with C.

Point being.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Nah that's giving your side of the debate all the benefit of the doubt and none to the other side which doesn't foster honest dialogue either.

17 touchdowns in 15 games is just not good. I know someone claimed earlier touchdown numbers is an archaic way to judge a QB but is it really? No. He's been VERY average and anyone on either polar end of the spectrum is just as wrong as the other end. We have some hope as he's been better when the line is healthy and like I've said a few times I sort of expect Geno to ball out these last two weeks. Saying he's "average" accounts for his excellent games which he has and some of his bad games as well. He's obviously capable of playing very well, saying he's average doesn't mean that's not true.

Whatever you say. Go ahead and look at the title of the thread and tell me, with a straight face, that this thread was meant to foster an honest dialogue.

It wasn't, and the primary instigators throughout this thread weren't interested in that dialogue, either.

I'm starting to think you may not be interested in an honest dialogue either, given that the body of your post is arguing against a point I'm not making at all in the entirety of this thread regarding 17 TDs being a good figure.

Every point I've argued against in this thread has been a ridiculous point with nothing to back it up. I haven't been hounding people for saying they think Geno is average.

 

[Ozzy]

You realize you're not the only person in the thread right? You can easil go back literally 2 posts and see I'm arguing with someone else about the touchdowns. Come on man.

Of course the title wasn't about fostering honest debate, doesn't mean every participant in the thread sees it that way either and again you know this.

 

[keasley45]

Well it's a little bit of both. 17 touchdowns and 9 picks and we have two games left. Is that really a statline that makes any criticism of him a terrible take? I also think people are being a little tough on him(myself included at times) because like Soulfish above points out when the line is healthy he's played well and he's also had some very good games. This debate has turned into every other debate that has two sides. Never conceeding an ounce to the other side and its us vs them. Social media and "P's" have ruined discourse.

I posted stills of ints against Arizona and Cincy that were without a doubt, not his fault. One to Bobo and one to DK. On both, the wr was errant in either giving up on a route DK, or not reading it correctly - Bobo.

One of his first of the season to JSN was also covered, and also not on Geno. JSN, should have ran a hot and didn't.

Those 3 were indisputably not Geno's fault...nor were 2 of the almost picks that came on throws to Fant and JSN on outs.

And those aren't the only ones. Just those that again, without a doubt, were not his fault.

So, take away 3 and without even contemplating what might have been on those drives if they'd continued, he's at 17 - 6., almost 3 to 1. If you assume he would have at least thrown the tds Lock did in the games he missed, and he's 19 - 6.

And I'm not saying he should get credit for any of the above. Just that zeroing in on 'flaws' and ignoring the actual circumstances doesn't paint an accurate picture.

On the flip, one thing is for sure. We can't live off of the low probability throws he's hitting. Even the throw that won the game last week. I love his confidence. But the more we put those plays on tape, the more DBs will be ready for them. And Geno has shown a tendency to trust his arm too much at times and force throws on routes that are getting jumped. It happened in the Dallas game on the out to Tyler and on a few others.

If he and Shane can't scheme up a little more creativity or if Geno can't bail on those plays or get the ball out faster... things likely won't end well.

 

[Maelstrom787]

You realize you're not the only person in the thread right? You can easil go back literally 2 posts and see I'm arguing with someone else about the touchdowns. Come on man.

Of course the title wasn't about fostering honest debate, doesn't mean every participant in the thread sees it that way either and again you know this.

Well, yeah, but I assumed I was implicated in that since the response was to me.

There are a few Geno fans, but most Geno slobberers are only labeled so due to relatively mild praise. Especially in this thread - most of the Geno praise is limited to his go-ahead touchdown stat and the specific scenario in the Titans game, isn't it? Other than some arguing about what we should expect TD wise, but I think that was more of a semantic argument than literally stating 17 TDs is good enough.

 

[knownone]

You can't just say full stop touchdowns are a terrible measuring stick when the vast majority would disagree. In today's modern NFL no one throws 20 touchdowns for a season and is considered a top 7-8 or even top 10.

What are you using to say he's well above average? Not being snarky honestly curious. QBR? 14th, average. Passer rating? 17th. Slighty below average. Completion %? 16th slightly below. TD/INT ratio? 10th slightly above although we're also claiming touchdowns aren't a good measuring stick.

Also in the Purdy debate you argued his efficiency numbers aren't a good indicator of how good he is right? If I misunderstood you then let me know.

To make this easier I think Geno is in the 14-20 range overall which is where most metrics seem to put him and hopefully if the line gets right he has an outside shot of being in the 10-14 range for me which is good. Do you think that's ridiculous?

I don't care what the majority of people believe. Football isn't complicated mathematically. Volatile stats are volatile. Efficiency is not. For example, all else being equal, if you convert half of Seattle's RZ rushing TDs into TD passes, Geno's pace is 28 TDs. Would that change your perception of him down-to-down? It shouldn't.

There are 32 teams in the NFL, so let's reconsider your averages. For example, by your analysis, 14th would be slightly above average. 16th would be dead on average. And 10th would be well above average. As for crucial efficiency stats, Geno's currently 11th in dropback EPA, 10th in success rate, 13th in adjusted comp%, and 8th in Cmp%/Expected. Similarly, he has a PFF score of 80.2, which is well above average.

My argument against Purdy is that it's unlikely he's one of the greatest QBs of all time, which is where he's currently ranked statistically. Thus, I don't see his current level of performance as sustainable. I mean, he has the highest YAC% of any QB in NFL history and the fewest PAs in the league among day-one starters. If ever there were a poster child for supporting casts and playcalling carrying a QB, it's Brock Purdy. Could I be wrong? Absolutely.

Where you choose to rank Geno is fine by me. I disagree with the analysis behind it, but it doesn't bother me. I look at Geno's body of work over the last two seasons, factor in his three injuries and the 2nd toughest schedule, and place him somewhere in the 16-8 range. Keeping in mind, I think QB play is at an all-time low.