Do you believe this about Russell Wilson?

[Lagartixa]

The Steelers would thrilled to get 29 tds and 13 tos from their qb.

How will they feel about 50 sacks and 6-10 fumbles?

 

[Ozzy]

The oversimplification of Russ and his talents continues to baffle me. You don't have a 10 year stretch of HOF play and you can't read a defense or call any plays. We know this isn't true because our two minute offense was a massive success and it was ran solely by him often with amazing success. The hate of Russ and how easily it clouds people's opinions is truly bizarre imo.

Now there is an element of truth in that it wasn't a strength of his, just like many other successful QB's. Not everyone is Brady or Manning. But Russ for a long stretch of time was still one of the very best in the league and at 10 years in was one of the best ever to start a career. If he did have their ability to process and see the field pre-snap or quickly after Russ would've been even better. This constant need to say "he sucked" though is still odd to me. No one in history puts up his kind of numbers solely because of coaching or without having some ability to do what the article says he can't, its impossible and those guys wash out.

And Pete deserves more credit than me and many others gave him with Russ. He did do a great job maximizing "the terrible" Russ Wilson. I missed it early on but in hindsight Pete did a fantastic job. It's funny this came up though. Brock was talking on the radio yesterday about rookie Russ and how obvious it was he was a special player and that everyone in the building who knew football knew he was winning that job out of camp.

I know I'm not changing anyone in the "Russ was terrible" camps mind but to each their own I guess. I think its fine to hate how he left/it ended and still recognize he was a great player for a time too.

 

[RiverDog]

The oversimplification of Russ and his talents continues to baffle me. You don't have a 10 year stretch of HOF play and you can't read a defense or call any plays. We know this isn't true because our two minute offense was a massive success and it was ran solely by him often with amazing success. The hate of Russ and how easily it clouds people's opinions is truly bizarre imo.

Now there is an element of truth in that it wasn't a strength of his, just like many other successful QB's. Not everyone is Brady or Manning. But Russ for a long stretch of time was still one of the very best in the league and at 10 years in was one of the best ever to start a career. If he did have their ability to process and see the field pre-snap or quickly after Russ would've been even better. This constant need to say "he sucked" though is still odd to me. No one in history puts up his kind of numbers solely because of coaching or without having some ability to do what the article says he can't, its impossible and those guys wash out.

And Pete deserves more credit than me and many others gave him with Russ. He did do a great job maximizing "the terrible" Russ Wilson. I missed it early on but in hindsight Pete did a fantastic job. It's funny this came up though. Brock was talking on the radio yesterday about rookie Russ and how obvious it was he was a special player and that everyone in the building who knew football knew he was winning that job out of camp.

I know I'm not changing anyone in the "Russ was terrible" camps mind but to each their own I guess. I think its fine to hate how he left/it ended and still recognize he was a great player for a time too.

I wouldn't call Russ's 10 year stretch of QB play "HOF" worthy. He is, or was until the past couple of years, borderline HOF at best. One of the unwritten prerequisites for a QB in today's NFL to get a gold jacket is winning a SB MVP or league MVP, and Russell hasn't so much as gotten a single vote for league MVP. Amongst his peers, ie Brees, Brady, Rodgers, even Rothlisberger are better, more accomplished QB's that are more likely to get in. He is/was in the 2nd tier of QB's.

But I get your point. Russell has to be judged as a successful QB, and no one is going to succeed at that position in this league if they can't read defenses or call plays.

 

[Ozzy]

I wouldn't call Russ's 10 year stretch of QB play "HOF" worthy. He is, or was until the past couple of years, borderline HOF at best. One of the unwritten prerequisites for a QB in today's NFL to get a gold jacket is winning a SB MVP or league MVP, and Russell hasn't so much as gotten a single vote for league MVP. Amongst his peers, ie Brees, Brady, Rodgers, even Rothlisberger are better, more accomplished QB's that are more likely to get in. He is/was in the 2nd tier of QB's.

But I get your point. Russell has to be judged as a successful QB, and no one is going to succeed at that position in this league if they can't read defenses or call plays.

His first ten years in the league were among the top 5 ever for a first ten years in the league. His passer rating, TD/INT, 4thquarter, game winning drives, rushing ability and then you add in his playoff success as well and its not even debatable to me. Sure Brees, Brady, Rodgers are better but Roeth is worse if you ask me but even conceding the point its a short, short list. The MVP voting is goofy as its a one vote system and in hindsight he should've won it outright the year Cam won it to many people around the league. If you look at QB's who are in the HOF RUss has most of them beat statistically and matched when it comes to playoff success. For a long time if you had two SB appearances and you weren't Dilfer.

Anyway as I type this I realize I'm being a little argumentative which I don't mean to be. Your opinion is completely valid, and I don't think we're really as far apart on this as it may seem. I appreciate your input and reasonable take on this!

 

[nanomoz]

How will they feel about 50 sacks and 6-10 fumbles?

The turnover numbers included fumbles lost.

 

[Spin Doctor]

His first ten years in the league were among the top 5 ever for a first ten years in the league. His passer rating, TD/INT, 4thquarter, game winning drives, rushing ability and then you add in his playoff success as well and its not even debatable to me. Sure Brees, Brady, Rodgers are better but Roeth is worse if you ask me but even conceding the point its a short, short list. The MVP voting is goofy as its a one vote system and in hindsight he should've won it outright the year Cam won it to many people around the league. If you look at QB's who are in the HOF RUss has most of them beat statistically and matched when it comes to playoff success. For a long time if you had two SB appearances and you weren't Dilfer.

Anyway as I type this I realize I'm being a little argumentative which I don't mean to be. Your opinion is completely valid, and I don't think we're really as far apart on this as it may seem. I appreciate your input and reasonable take on this!

The NFL HOF is about narratives more than anything.

Another thing to consider about those numbers is they came in the modern NFL era where passing is much easier than it was in the 00s.

We also have to consider that Wilson was considered an accessory piece in the Seahawks SB win. In the second Bowl the major piece of rhetoric was “should’ve given Marshawn the ball”.

People for years have also noticed the inconsistent Seahawks offense which laid at the feet of Wilson.

If he retired today he’d be on the outside looking in, especially looking at his play and antics starting on the backside of 2020.

 

[Spin Doctor]

"... slump in his play that had lasted since the back half of 2020.."

The Seahawks were 12-4 and won the division in 2020. One of the most successful seasons in their history.

Who knows what was going on with Sean Payton last season.

But when your QB takes you on a 5 game win streak, including beating the eventual SB champions, it has to be more than

"he's not winning the right way",

And? Look at how he played in the final
half of 2020. He was putting up record numbers in the first half, but he looked like trash in the second half of the season.

Sean Payton didn’t like Wilson because he severely handicapped his offense. He had to rework everything to a rudimentary, bare bones offense for it to work for Wilson.

The Broncos also had an unprecedented amount of take aways on defense in that period of time.

At Wilson’s point in his career he isn’t that great anymore and the Broncos were paying top dollar for a 30+ year old QB that couldn’t run Payton’s offense. A 30+ year old QB that relied on his athleticism, an attribute that is now severely muted.

It isn’t about “winning the right way” it’s the fact that Wilson at this point in his career is a QB that is extremely limited with no upside given his price tag and age.

 

[Palmegranite]

And? Look at how he played in the final
half of 2020. He was putting up record numbers in the first half, but he looked like trash in the second half of the season.

C'mon now....They started with a 5 game win streak that year and finished very strong, winning 5 of their last 6 games...
In spite of Wilson's trash play, they won their last 4 games, one of them being a 40-3 thumping.

Yeah, just horrible.

 

[IndyHawk]

And? Look at how he played in the final
half of 2020. He was putting up record numbers in the first half, but he looked like trash in the second half of the season.

Sean Payton didn’t like Wilson because he severely handicapped his offense. He had to rework everything to a rudimentary, bare bones offense for it to work for Wilson.

The Broncos also had an unprecedented amount of take aways on defense in that period of time.

At Wilson’s point in his career he isn’t that great anymore and the Broncos were paying top dollar for a 30+ year old QB that couldn’t run Payton’s offense. A 30+ year old QB that relied on his athleticism, an attribute that is now severely muted.

It isn’t about “winning the right way” it’s the fact that Wilson at this point in his career is a QB that is extremely limited with no upside given his price tag and age.

Welcome back and missed the "Spinzone" ..

 

[Ozzy]

The NFL HOF is about narratives more than anything.

Another thing to consider about those numbers is they came in the modern NFL era where passing is much easier than it was in the 00s.

We also have to consider that Wilson was considered an accessory piece in the Seahawks SB win. In the second Bowl the major piece of rhetoric was “should’ve given Marshawn the ball”.

People for years have also noticed the inconsistent Seahawks offense which laid at the feet of Wilson.

If he retired today he’d be on the outside looking in, especially looking at his play and antics starting on the backside of 2020.

I don’t think he was an accessory piece and if they didn’t have him they’re not winning a SB. Go looks at his numbers rhe SB year he was a monster. He had multiple game winning drives that year too. His running ability and the read option was massive for their success along with Lynch too.

I’d also argue even considering the modern era it’s still one of the best 10 year starts ever. Mahomes has surpassed him in this modern era obviously but not many others if any at all.

I think he’s in and we’re all a little biased because of the hate towards him and his stint in Denver. Very, very few guys are super consistent. The HOF isn’t just Brady/Manning/Mahomes.

I guess we will see but if it wasn’t for the public narrative they he’s corny or whatever and we changed the name on his jersey I don’t think it’s debated.

 

[RiverDog]

His first ten years in the league were among the top 5 ever for a first ten years in the league. His passer rating, TD/INT, 4thquarter, game winning drives, rushing ability and then you add in his playoff success as well and its not even debatable to me. Sure Brees, Brady, Rodgers are better but Roeth is worse if you ask me but even conceding the point its a short, short list. The MVP voting is goofy as its a one vote system and in hindsight he should've won it outright the year Cam won it to many people around the league. If you look at QB's who are in the HOF RUss has most of them beat statistically and matched when it comes to playoff success. For a long time if you had two SB appearances and you weren't Dilfer.

Anyway as I type this I realize I'm being a little argumentative which I don't mean to be. Your opinion is completely valid, and I don't think we're really as far apart on this as it may seem. I appreciate your input and reasonable take on this!

In 2015, the year Cam Newton won the MVP, his Panthers had one of the best regular season records in the history of the game and he was the catalyst. He was the top player on the best team in the league, so IMO he deserved it if for nothing else, the way his team performed. Drew Brees had the best statistical year that season, but they weren't going to give it to a player who had a 7-8 record as a starter.

But even if we were to eliminate Cam from the balloting, there's no way that an objective person would vote for Russell. His Hawks were just 10-6 and the last wild card seed. He ranked 12th in the league in passing yardage. Heck, Carson Palmer was more deserving as his Cards went 13-3 and he was one of the top ranked QB's that season. The GOAT was the 3rd ranked QB and the Pats went 12-4. That's why Russell has never received even a single vote for MVP as there was always 3-4 players more deserving.

I don't disagree about the MVP voting being a little goofy, but one can make that argument about any award, HOF balloting, etc.

You are correct that we tend to agree on the basic premise, that a lot of people harbor a very strong bias against Russell to the point that they'll believe anything negative written about him. Russell likely won't make the HOF, but he's the best QB we've ever had in franchise history.

 

[chris98251]

In 2015, the year Cam Newton won the MVP, his Panthers had one of the best regular season records in the history of the game and he was the catalyst. He was the top player on the best team in the league, so IMO he deserved it if for nothing else, the way his team performed. Drew Brees had the best statistical year that season, but they weren't going to give it to a player who had a 7-8 record as a starter.

But even if we were to eliminate Cam from the balloting, there's no way that an objective person would vote for Russell. His Hawks were just 10-6 and the last wild card seed. He ranked 12th in the league in passing yardage. Heck, Carson Palmer was more deserving as his Cards went 13-3 and he was one of the top ranked QB's that season. The GOAT was the 3rd ranked QB and the Pats went 12-4. That's why Russell has never received even a single vote for MVP as there was always 3-4 players more deserving.

I don't disagree about the MVP voting being a little goofy, but one can make that argument about any award, HOF balloting, etc.

You are correct that we tend to agree on the basic premise, that a lot of people harbor a very strong bias against Russell to the point that they'll believe anything negative written about him. Russell likely won't make the HOF, but he's the best QB we've ever had in franchise history.

No he isn't statistically he may have numbers but put Matt, Dave, Warren and Jim in front of him for leadership, team mate, and pretty much everything else that isn't a statistic on the field.

 

[RiverDog]

No he isn't statistically he may have numbers but put Matt, Dave, Warren and Jim in front of him for leadership, team mate, and pretty much everything else that isn't a statistic on the field.

Thanks for your opinion. I disagree with it...completely.

 

[chris98251]

Thanks for your opinion. I disagree with it...completely.

Which is your prerogative, but his selfish me first attitude I think was the influence that caused the no Handoff and divided a team that could have been a dynasty. Aside from being fake he has no sake of team or allegiance to it's members. He wants to be above the Common player so to speak which is why Lynch, Sherman and others had issues plus he has no ability to take criticism and accepting his faults.

 

[Jac]

And? Look at how he played in the final
half of 2020. He was putting up record numbers in the first half, but he looked like trash in the second half of the season.

Sean Payton didn’t like Wilson because he severely handicapped his offense. He had to rework everything to a rudimentary, bare bones offense for it to work for Wilson.

The Broncos also had an unprecedented amount of take aways on defense in that period of time.

At Wilson’s point in his career he isn’t that great anymore and the Broncos were paying top dollar for a 30+ year old QB that couldn’t run Payton’s offense. A 30+ year old QB that relied on his athleticism, an attribute that is now severely muted.

It isn’t about “winning the right way” it’s the fact that Wilson at this point in his career is a QB that is extremely limited with no upside given his price tag and age.

Yep, many things can be true at the same time. For example, Wilson had far more success than many/most of the celebrated first round QBs over the last several years will ever have. But there was just a shelf life on that style of play. Fortunately this was a case where we sold a year early before Denver figured that out.

 

[Ozzy]

Which is your prerogative, but his selfish me first attitude I think was the influence that caused the no Handoff and divided a team that could have been a dynasty. Aside from being fake he has no sake of team or allegiance to it's members. He wants to be above the Common player so to speak which is why Lynch, Sherman and others had issues plus he has no ability to take criticism and accepting his faults.

So the handoff to Lynch was Wilson's fault? ALso I think the idea the team was divided had more to do with Sherman than Wilson as we've seen a ton of evidence since then. Lynch just came out and said he loves Wilson like a brother. He talked about how they are so different they 're probably never going to hang out but he respected Wilson on the field becaue he put it all out there for his team and said WIlson was one of his best teammates ever because of it. People hate Wilson so they twist every little thing into this weird narrative that Wilson was basically ARod and he never was. He's a giant goofball, his exit from Seattle was handled terribly by him but to claim he was selfish and didn't care about winning or the team is bizarre.

All of Wilson's Denver teammates spoke highly of him too, seems odd if he's such a terrible teammate and selfish player no?

You mentioned SHerman while ignoring his selfish acts and Lynch(my favorite player ever) who was also selfish at times while killing Wilson. I think you're a little biased here.

 

[Ozzy]

While I disagree with Riverdog on the HOF stuff he's take is reasonable and I can understand why he holds it even while disagreeing. People claiming Wilson didn't care about winning or the team is what I will never understand.

 

[chris98251]

While I disagree with Riverdog on the HOF stuff he's take is reasonable and I can understand why he holds it even while disagreeing. People claiming Wilson didn't care about winning or the team is what I will never understand.

Not about Winning or the team, it was about his team mates and while winning is supporting his legacy he thinks of the players around him as just tools to achieve greater heights for himself. He would not sabotage the staff and other players if he cared, he would not have went to Jody and said Me or Pete basically. Yes it was about MVP versus Lynch in the Super Bowl and his once again Legacy.

I am biased, I cannot stand phony and Wilson presented that and what he presented many here bought as gospel, and seemingly still do.

 

[Spin Doctor]

So the handoff to Lynch was Wilson's fault? ALso I think the idea the team was divided had more to do with Sherman than Wilson as we've seen a ton of evidence since then. Lynch just came out and said he loves Wilson like a brother. He talked about how they are so different they 're probably never going to hang out but he respected Wilson on the field becaue he put it all out there for his team and said WIlson was one of his best teammates ever because of it. People hate Wilson so they twist every little thing into this weird narrative that Wilson was basically ARod and he never was. He's a giant goofball, his exit from Seattle was handled terribly by him but to claim he was selfish and didn't care about winning or the team is bizarre.

All of Wilson's Denver teammates spoke highly of him too, seems odd if he's such a terrible teammate and selfish player no?

You mentioned SHerman while ignoring his selfish acts and Lynch(my favorite player ever) who was also selfish at times while killing Wilson. I think you're a little biased here.

Wilson is a bit like AROD. He forced his way out of Seattle and threw everyone under the bus in the process. He scorned one of his biggest defenders, Carroll.

Wilson is no longer a giant goofball. He’s a calculated politician type that is more concerned about his brand than perfecting his craft in his later years.

 

[Ozzy]

Not about Winning or the team, it was about his team mates and while winning is supporting his legacy he thinks of the players around him as just tools to achieve greater heights for himself. He would not sabotage the staff and other players if he cared, he would not have went to Jody and said Me or Pete basically. Yes it was about MVP versus Lynch in the Super Bowl and his once again Legacy.

I am biased, I cannot stand phony and Wilson presented that and what he presented many here bought as gospel, and seemingly still do.

Pete and Bevel made that call, to blame Wilson for the call is odd. And if it’s because you think they felt “pressured” then you should be clowning Carroll for falling prey to it. Sherman publicly threw Carroll under the bus multiple times. Lunch refused to practice and also threw a fit and wouldn’t get on the bus yet they get passes.