Dan Kelly quotes I wish got stapled to Bevell's forehead

WindCityHawk

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2Cool4School":3gfvs7z6 said:
sdog1981":3gfvs7z6 said:
Bevell has never been a part of or a key member of an innovative or effective offense. Brett Farve simi-fired him as OC with the Vikings.
Well he was the OC when the seahawks made 2 superbowls. So you are incorrect.

Are you familiar with the term "Correlation does not imply causation?" It's clear by now that Bevell had about as much to do with our getting to the SB as Clint Gresham's longsnapping over the same span. Wilson is continuously lauded on his improvisation when the play breaks down, which means Wilson is at his best when he's allowed to abandon the plan and pull something out of his butt. To say that another way: stuff a QB makes up on the spot is better than the OC's plan.

This "Bevell was present at a SB" argument is a glaring fallacy and needs to stop.
 

mrt144

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WindCityHawk":dhrujyo7 said:
2Cool4School":dhrujyo7 said:
sdog1981":dhrujyo7 said:
Bevell has never been a part of or a key member of an innovative or effective offense. Brett Farve simi-fired him as OC with the Vikings.
Well he was the OC when the seahawks made 2 superbowls. So you are incorrect.

Are you familiar with the term "Correlation does not imply causation?" It's clear by now that Bevell had about as much to do with our getting to the SB as Clint Gresham's longsnapping over the same span. Wilson is continuously lauded on his improvisation when the play breaks down, which means Wilson is at his best when he's allowed to abandon the plan and pull something out of his butt. To say that another way: stuff a QB makes up on the spot is better than the OC's plan.

This "Bevell was present at a SB" argument is a glaring fallacy and needs to stop.

It's apparent that his offense doesn't work at all when the offensive line is as bad as it is. And it's also apparent that he hasn't figured a way out of it. With a few more personnel shifts, we'll start seeing more signal to noise what he's capable of. I'm a pretty big Bevell hater but I'm hopeful he figures it out and grows as a coach. Something that I give a huge benefit to with RW is that he's still young and learning and has the potential to grow. I really want to have that same hope with Bevell and especially because it's limited to purely cognitive function.

At some point his talents are exactly what the output of the offense is - Gase in Chicago is the latest example of what a change in eyes can do to performance.

Ultimately it boils down to whether you replace Bevell or RW in 3 to 4 years. Maybe sooner on Bevell since I doubt the FO is prepared to go fish with new QB hunt at this point.
 

Siouxhawk

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WindCityHawk":pwx31rr0 said:
2Cool4School":pwx31rr0 said:
sdog1981":pwx31rr0 said:
Bevell has never been a part of or a key member of an innovative or effective offense. Brett Farve simi-fired him as OC with the Vikings.
Well he was the OC when the seahawks made 2 superbowls. So you are incorrect.

Are you familiar with the term "Correlation does not imply causation?" It's clear by now that Bevell had about as much to do with our getting to the SB as Clint Gresham's longsnapping over the same span. Wilson is continuously lauded on his improvisation when the play breaks down, which means Wilson is at his best when he's allowed to abandon the plan and pull something out of his butt. To say that another way: stuff a QB makes up on the spot is better than the OC's plan.

This "Bevell was present at a SB" argument is a glaring fallacy and needs to stop.
It doesn't need to stop at all. In fact it's absurd beyond belief to totally dismiss his role in getting to two straight Super Bowls and winning one. Totally adolescent ignorance.
There were countless plays the offense made during the course of the season and in the postseason to set us up. And as I said before, even when Russ is in scramble mode, he's been trained by the OC and the staff on what to do in those situations, as are the other players on the field.
Anyhow, Doug Baldwin just came out and said there's not a darn thing wrong with Bevell's plays. I'll take his word for it.
 

Sports Hernia

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WindCityHawk":t6i3jfcu said:
2Cool4School":t6i3jfcu said:
sdog1981":t6i3jfcu said:
Bevell has never been a part of or a key member of an innovative or effective offense. Brett Farve simi-fired him as OC with the Vikings.
Well he was the OC when the seahawks made 2 superbowls. So you are incorrect.

Are you familiar with the term "Correlation does not imply causation?" It's clear by now that Bevell had about as much to do with our getting to the SB as Clint Gresham's longsnapping over the same span. Wilson is continuously lauded on his improvisation when the play breaks down, which means Wilson is at his best when he's allowed to abandon the plan and pull something out of his butt. To say that another way: stuff a QB makes up on the spot is better than the OC's plan.

This "Bevell was present at a SB" argument is a glaring fallacy and needs to stop.
BINGO!!!!!
 

olyfan63

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theENGLISHseahawk":33tf9vas said:
redhawk253":33tf9vas said:
Bevells biggest weakness.. he doesnt know how to utilize the talent around him. His ego wants to prove that his scheme is a winner at the cost of the team and the players.

Or maybe, just maybe, when he's being told to run the best scrambling offense that features ball control and conservatism but also uses a constantly improvising quarterback within an offense that needs to throw a ton to a mobile tight end who can't block but is expected too while making the run game its focal point while somebody else calls the run plays and coaches/develops the O-line which is also highly lacking in talent...

This is actually a harder job than people want to give him credit for.

Post of the Week!

Much as I hate Bevell at times, this lays it out beautifully.
 

Sports Hernia

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Siouxhawk":1wjhmrwa said:
WindCityHawk":1wjhmrwa said:
2Cool4School":1wjhmrwa said:
sdog1981":1wjhmrwa said:
Bevell has never been a part of or a key member of an innovative or effective offense. Brett Farve simi-fired him as OC with the Vikings.
Well he was the OC when the seahawks made 2 superbowls. So you are incorrect.

Are you familiar with the term "Correlation does not imply causation?" It's clear by now that Bevell had about as much to do with our getting to the SB as Clint Gresham's longsnapping over the same span. Wilson is continuously lauded on his improvisation when the play breaks down, which means Wilson is at his best when he's allowed to abandon the plan and pull something out of his butt. To say that another way: stuff a QB makes up on the spot is better than the OC's plan.

This "Bevell was present at a SB" argument is a glaring fallacy and needs to stop.
It doesn't need to stop at all. In fact it's absurd beyond belief to totally dismiss his role in getting to two straight Super Bowls and winning one. Totally adolescent ignorance.
There were countless plays the offense made during the course of the season and in the postseason to set us up. And as I said before, even when Russ is in scramble mode, he's been trained by the OC and the staff on what to do in those situations, as are the other players on the field.
Anyhow, Doug Baldwin just came out and said there's not a darn thing wrong with Bevell's plays. I'll take his word for it.
What do you expect Baldwin to say??? Bevell sucks????? LOL.

He would get ZERO passes thrown in his direction and he wouldn't be on the roster very long. Go to your boss at work and tell him he sucks and see how long you are employed.

Since your posts seem to indicate you give DB most of the credit for going to back to back Super Bowls, LOGIC says you should give him most of the blame to him for the 4-5 start and this anemic offense, right?.... Or is it always someone else's fault, and DB has never made a bad play call ????
 

Siouxhawk

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Siouxhawk":19ylvsic said:
WindCityHawk":19ylvsic said:
2Cool4School":19ylvsic said:
sdog1981":19ylvsic said:
Well he was the OC when the seahawks made 2 superbowls. So you are incorrect.

Are you familiar with the term "Correlation does not imply causation?" It's clear by now that Bevell had about as much to do with our getting to the SB as Clint Gresham's longsnapping over the same span. Wilson is continuously lauded on his improvisation when the play breaks down, which means Wilson is at his best when he's allowed to abandon the plan and pull something out of his butt. To say that another way: stuff a QB makes up on the spot is better than the OC's plan.

This "Bevell was present at a SB" argument is a glaring fallacy and needs to stop.
It doesn't need to stop at all. In fact it's absurd beyond belief to totally dismiss his role in getting to two straight Super Bowls and winning one. Totally adolescent ignorance.
There were countless plays the offense made during the course of the season and in the postseason to set us up. And as I said before, even when Russ is in scramble mode, he's been trained by the OC and the staff on what to do in those situations, as are the other players on the field.
Anyhow, Doug Baldwin just came out and said there's not a darn thing wrong with Bevell's plays. I'll take his word for it.
What do you expect Baldwin to say??? Bevell sucks????? LOL.

He would get ZERO passes thrown in his direction and he wouldn't be on the roster very long. Go to your boss at work and tell him he sucks and see how long you are employed.

Since your posts seem to indicate you give DB most of the credit for going to back to back Super Bowls, LOGIC says you should give him most of the blame to him for the 4-5 start and this anemic offense, right?.... Or is it always someone else's fault, and DB has never made a bad play call ????
First of all, we all know ADB to be a straight shooter. So yeah, I do believe the sincerity of his words. He knows better than anyone what is the root of the problem and even though he didn't identify that, he did give his blanket statement on what ISN"T the reason our season has started the way it has.

And way to misinterpret me again. I've never said Bev was the primary reason we've gone to back-to-back Super Bowls. I've said he's an important cog in getting that done. But go ahead and make up your fables.

What I have said is that there are many variables to why we've started the way we have and since football is a team game, Bevell shares a portion of that responsibility. He's said as much. But it's my belief that once we get adequate production from our offensive line, our offense will be churning again. San Francisco should be a good opponent to get that done.
 

mrt144

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Sports Hernia":1phbctyd said:
Since your posts seem to indicate you give DB most of the credit for going to back to back Super Bowls, LOGIC says you should give him most of the blame to him for the 4-5 start and this anemic offense, right?.... Or is it always someone else's fault, and DB has never made a bad play call ????

Infallible football genius is what it is
 

Sgt Largent

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Siouxhawk":2qtvrxzp said:
sdog1981":2qtvrxzp said:
Siouxhawk":2qtvrxzp said:
sdog1981":2qtvrxzp said:
Bevell has never been a part of or a key member of an innovative or effective offense. Brett Farve simi-fired him as OC with the Vikings.
This is totally false any way you slice it.


How do you figure? His time at Wisconsin under Barry Alvarez and Brad Childress when they ran the ball 45 times a game? When his was the QB coach in Green Bay and commanded so little respect from Farve that he was the student and Farve was the teacher? Oh I know when he took over as the Vikings OC when they had one of the best defenses in the league and was ranked 20th and lower in 3rd down conversions?


Oh and here is a Football Outsiders article shredding Bevell and his predicable play calls.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/audibl ... -bowl-xlix


Also here are the stats from the NFL you can see that a Bevell run offense is always ranked below 20th completing 34 percent or lower on 3rd downs keeping very good defenses on the field until they collapse in the 4th qtr. This link starts in 2006 you can just go to every year till now.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... PERCENTAGE


And my final fact based comment is also from football outsiders showing how stupid easy our passing game is to stop and bad Tom Cable is at line development.


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/files/ ... Sample.pdf


None of the articles or links to stats that you supplied mean squat. The Football Outsiders stuff is akin to the very forum we are on. The stats are what they are and come as no surprise to anyone who has been discussing our offense this year. But boiling it down, our offense has hindered by the development of our offensive line first and foremost and our overall stats have suffered.

But when it comes to the Vikings, I don't know what you're trying to get at. With Bevell calling the offense, the Vikes were one poorly-thrown Favre ball from making the Super Bowl. Bevell's offense,in fact, kept Minnesota in the game despite the fact that it fumbled the ball away five times -- 3 alone by Adrian Peterson.
The offense there was similar to what the identity of the Hawks have been the last 2 years and what we're striving for today ... defense and run-heavy ground game. Swap out Adrian for Marshawn and a turnover-hawking defense that kept the opponents off the board and that Viking team of 2009 was pretty similar to what the Hawks have put out there the last 2 years.
Bevell is the perfect OC for what Pete is trying to do here. If the Hawks decide to change the identity of what kind of offense they want to run, that's the only time you could even consider a change.
But as I said before, Bevell is the best choice possible to be part of the solution going forward. And Pete knows that.

It's interesting that you use Minnesota's run as evidence for Bevell success and Farve as the failure. What do we know about Farve? Gunslinger? Improvisational? A little sandlot in him? Take out the gunslinger part and now we might as well be talking about Wilson.

So, couldn't the argument be made that Bevell's successes to this point have relied as much on his QB's just "makiing it up on the fly" as much as anything he is doing? Farve played with an absence of rhythm and timing, and alot of improvisation. Exactly what we see here. Now, I will concede that Farve played that way on his own, and only the strongest coaches could reign him in.

I believe Wilson is much more coachable (read correctable) than Favre was. So why does it look exactly the same, minus the frequent high risk throws?
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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RolandDeschain":3ggnz2bj said:
theENGLISHseahawk":3ggnz2bj said:
PS

DVOA on Football Outsiders gave Seattle a top ten offense in 2014. They're currently at #11.

But announcers...
You know damn well what quadrant of the league Bevell would be in if FO gave a DVOA value to offensive coordinators, English. Don't try to mislead.


A what?

How is it misleading to highlight that Seattle had a top 10 offense according to DVOA last season and are currently ranked at #11 in 2015.

Or is it misleading because it doesn't fit the agenda of some posters to hammer Bevell at every opportunity?

Optimus25":3ggnz2bj said:
You have got to be kidding.
This is where you can pull your head out of stat land and face the reality of an eye test.

Use your dvoa to defend the nfccg please. Or the one before that. Or sb 49. Took a nobody receiver to rescue Bevell then.

NFC Championship game -- where Jermaine Kearse spilled several passes that were tipped and picked off. Or the pass where RW forced it downfield. My eye test tells me the players fudged that game and then rescued it at the end.

Super Bowl 49. Where Bevell and the staff decided to feature Matthews to catch New England off guard after the initial plan didn't work with major results.

See. It's as easy to make any argument based on 'eye tests' as it is 'stats'.

Keep scapegoating people.
 

Scottemojo

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English, I can give you 5 plays right now that players got blamed for in the first half Sunday night that where they were in a bad situation because either the call was bad or the Cards knew exactly what the play was, which is sometimes, but not always a ding on the OC.
I can also cite a couple of first half play callss that were damn good, and showed where Seattle had weaknesses to exploit, but simply didn't go back to until the 2nd half. And it wasn't all because we were behind the sticks.

The two worst first half plays were screens. We are an awful screen team. The one thing we should be good at, with the athletic linemen Seattle has, screens, and ours have all the rhythm of an unfolding lawn chair. Russell's butt fumble buffoonery gets laid at his feet, but it was a shitty screen where his only target got locked up. There was no secondary target. None. Laloosh posted a nice screen call vs the 'Boys with a secondary target that went for a good gain. The other near safety was also a failed screen with no secondary target, where Lynch had to throw a chip block before his route, and predictably was locked up by a Cards player leaving Russ zero options. I might add that it was the first time all game we had an ISO of Graham as the far left WR, and we used him as a decoy route that went away from the roll out.

I want to repeat one thing I just wrote. With our athletic line, the one thing we should be really good at is screens. We can say whatever we want about the inexperience of this group, but Seattle has been bad at screens for years. being well rehearsed at the execution of screens would remove a bit of the pressure off this group and use their one really good trait, their down field athleticism, to it's best.

Also, I want to point out that Bevell cited the penalties as a reason the offense was stagnant. True. However, one of those holding penalties lies at Bevell's feet. from 4 wide they motioned Willson to off left tackle for a run play, to stop a clear middle blitz by a Cards DB. I have no idea why they just didn't change the play, the matchups on the WRs were very favorable, but Willson was never ever going to get from off left tackle to square up a blitz in the middle of the line. He held, but he was put in position to fail. Just like Lynch on the two failed screens.



Seattle's extreme ineptitude at screens lies squarely on the coaching and design of the plays. If Marshawn is the only target on those plays, then having him chip block or be in position to get held up is inexcusable. That isn't scapegoating, that is a tell the truth ding on a specific play call. Screen calls are so very much on schedule when you are behind the sticks, but those two were so poorly designed that our QB looked like an idiot, when in actuality he had zero targets.

It is maddening to watch our offense in part because the ability to do really good things is so very clear. When Seattle finally got into a no huddle, stopped shuttling personnel on and off the field, lined up consecutive snaps in 4 wide with multiple speed threats, the Cards defense dissolved.

As far as the two superbowls thing, NFL history is littered with good teams and good QBs who outgrew coaches and coordinators. Dan Reeves nurtured a highly mobile Elway from day one, and took him to 3 SBs, but eventually lost his job because it was so clear that the rev limiter on the Broncos offense was the my way or no way Dan Reeves. The Super Bowls ceased to matter at some point, and that point was when it became clear that while his coaching had nurtured the growth of his QB, who needed that structure at first, his coaching had become a hindrance to future growth. I lived in Denver's fanbase at the time, many fans were pissed and cited 3 superbowls! as why Dan needed to stay, but history did show that his rigidity was a hindrance. It is my opinion that our offense is equally rigid. It is also my opinion that Pete, who says he believes in self scouting very much, better recognize that and change it before he is the next Dan Reeves.

As far as DVOA rankings on offense being some kind of indicator of genius, I don't buy it, for two reasons. Seattle's ranking was rooted in it's rushing, which was an outlier and it has been well stated multiple times that Cable coaches the run game, and could be viewed as unsustainable when your QB is going to eat a huge percentage of your cap. Organize those rankings into tiers, and Seattle ends up not so much different in passing efficiency than Miami. We hardly label that offense as awesome, do we? Take Russell's pass attempts turned scrambles off the rushing numbers and we suddenly don't look so efficient.

The MVP of the team being the field goal kicker is an indictment of the OC.
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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Some fair points Scotte. And I'm not pro-Bevell so much as I'm just not anti-Bevell. I think he's an easy target. An easy person to vent at or to blame when things go wrong. It's common in sports fandom. Things go wrong, someone has to be fired or blamed. And nobody wants Carroll gone. Or Wilson. So that leaves Bevell.

But I'll post this again because I think it's important:

Or maybe, just maybe, when he's being told to run the best scrambling offense that features ball control and conservatism but also uses a constantly improvising quarterback within an offense that needs to throw a ton to a mobile tight end who can't block but is expected to while making the run game its focal point while somebody else calls the run plays and coaches/develops the O-line which is also highly lacking in talent...

This is actually a harder job than people want to give him credit for.
 

Sports Hernia

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Siouxhawk":1ew7dqz8 said:
Siouxhawk":1ew7dqz8 said:
WindCityHawk":1ew7dqz8 said:
2Cool4School":1ew7dqz8 said:
Well he was the OC when the seahawks made 2 superbowls. So you are incorrect.

Are you familiar with the term "Correlation does not imply causation?" It's clear by now that Bevell had about as much to do with our getting to the SB as Clint Gresham's longsnapping over the same span. Wilson is continuously lauded on his improvisation when the play breaks down, which means Wilson is at his best when he's allowed to abandon the plan and pull something out of his butt. To say that another way: stuff a QB makes up on the spot is better than the OC's plan.

This "Bevell was present at a SB" argument is a glaring fallacy and needs to stop.
It doesn't need to stop at all. In fact it's absurd beyond belief to totally dismiss his role in getting to two straight Super Bowls and winning one. Totally adolescent ignorance.
There were countless plays the offense made during the course of the season and in the postseason to set us up. And as I said before, even when Russ is in scramble mode, he's been trained by the OC and the staff on what to do in those situations, as are the other players on the field.
Anyhow, Doug Baldwin just came out and said there's not a darn thing wrong with Bevell's plays. I'll take his word for it.
What do you expect Baldwin to say??? Bevell sucks????? LOL.

He would get ZERO passes thrown in his direction and he wouldn't be on the roster very long. Go to your boss at work and tell him he sucks and see how long you are employed.

Since your posts seem to indicate you give DB most of the credit for going to back to back Super Bowls, LOGIC says you should give him most of the blame to him for the 4-5 start and this anemic offense, right?.... Or is it always someone else's fault, and DB has never made a bad play call ????
First of all, we all know ADB to be a straight shooter. So yeah, I do believe the sincerity of his words. He knows better than anyone what is the root of the problem and even though he didn't identify that, he did give his blanket statement on what ISN"T the reason our season has started the way it has.

And way to misinterpret me again. I've never said Bev was the primary reason we've gone to back-to-back Super Bowls. I've said he's an important cog in getting that done. But go ahead and make up your fables.

What I have said is that there are many variables to why we've started the way we have and since football is a team game, Bevell shares a portion of that responsibility. He's said as much. But it's my belief that once we get adequate production from our offensive line, our offense will be churning again. San Francisco should be a good opponent to get that done.
Please link any audio or quotes where DB took any personal responsibility for his anemic offense this season or his super bowl screw up..... he is usually too busy throwing his players under the bus to own up and take any blame.
 

Siouxhawk

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Siouxhawk":2lodp2ms said:
sdog1981":2lodp2ms said:
Siouxhawk":2lodp2ms said:
sdog1981":2lodp2ms said:
How do you figure? His time at Wisconsin under Barry Alvarez and Brad Childress when they ran the ball 45 times a game? When his was the QB coach in Green Bay and commanded so little respect from Farve that he was the student and Farve was the teacher? Oh I know when he took over as the Vikings OC when they had one of the best defenses in the league and was ranked 20th and lower in 3rd down conversions?


Oh and here is a Football Outsiders article shredding Bevell and his predicable play calls.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/audibl ... -bowl-xlix


Also here are the stats from the NFL you can see that a Bevell run offense is always ranked below 20th completing 34 percent or lower on 3rd downs keeping very good defenses on the field until they collapse in the 4th qtr. This link starts in 2006 you can just go to every year till now.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... PERCENTAGE


And my final fact based comment is also from football outsiders showing how stupid easy our passing game is to stop and bad Tom Cable is at line development.


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/files/ ... Sample.pdf


None of the articles or links to stats that you supplied mean squat. The Football Outsiders stuff is akin to the very forum we are on. The stats are what they are and come as no surprise to anyone who has been discussing our offense this year. But boiling it down, our offense has hindered by the development of our offensive line first and foremost and our overall stats have suffered.

But when it comes to the Vikings, I don't know what you're trying to get at. With Bevell calling the offense, the Vikes were one poorly-thrown Favre ball from making the Super Bowl. Bevell's offense,in fact, kept Minnesota in the game despite the fact that it fumbled the ball away five times -- 3 alone by Adrian Peterson.
The offense there was similar to what the identity of the Hawks have been the last 2 years and what we're striving for today ... defense and run-heavy ground game. Swap out Adrian for Marshawn and a turnover-hawking defense that kept the opponents off the board and that Viking team of 2009 was pretty similar to what the Hawks have put out there the last 2 years.
Bevell is the perfect OC for what Pete is trying to do here. If the Hawks decide to change the identity of what kind of offense they want to run, that's the only time you could even consider a change.
But as I said before, Bevell is the best choice possible to be part of the solution going forward. And Pete knows that.

It's interesting that you use Minnesota's run as evidence for Bevell success and Farve as the failure. What do we know about Farve? Gunslinger? Improvisational? A little sandlot in him? Take out the gunslinger part and now we might as well be talking about Wilson.

So, couldn't the argument be made that Bevell's successes to this point have relied as much on his QB's just "makiing it up on the fly" as much as anything he is doing? Farve played with an absence of rhythm and timing, and alot of improvisation. Exactly what we see here. Now, I will concede that Farve played that way on his own, and only the strongest coaches could reign him in.

I believe Wilson is much more coachable (read correctable) than Favre was. So why does it look exactly the same, minus the frequent high risk throws?
Without a doubt there are parallels in the style of game that both quarterbacks play/ed. That is interesting. But having said that, the full-out scramble happened, what, in 10 of the 80 or so offensive plays in the game? And in Favre's younger days, he was given the type of keeper plays that Russ runs now to take advantage of that elusiveness
The difference there is the period of time Bev came in contact with both. Favre's was a veteran and thus he had full latitude to check out of a play depending on what he recognized on defense. He had a magical 2009, coming up with many clutch plays en route to the NFCCG. Bevell helped him with a crash course in getting to know the playbook ... and the audibles in the playbook. I think Bevell understood when Favre checked out of plays. As a future Hall of Famer, he had earned that right. It was Childress who wasn't so much in favor of that.
With Russell, Bevell has worked with the Chapter One version of Favre. That difference in youth translates to Bevell putting more focus on using Russell's legs and run-option skills through those first 3 years. This year, they've tasked him to calling his own pass protect and giving him more freedom to check out of a play depending on what the defense is showing. I think an emphasis has been placed organization wide on getting Russ to use the pocket more to prolong his health, so Bevell is helping him there too. It's been quite a transition year for Russell.
But to say both of those quarterbacks are just the wind-them-up-and-let-them-play types and overlooking the role Bevell has and is playing with each vastly oversimplifies his contributions.
 

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theENGLISHseahawk":2k6a9d8c said:
Some fair points Scotte. And I'm not pro-Bevell so much as I'm just not anti-Bevell. I think he's an easy target. An easy person to vent at or to blame when things go wrong. It's common in sports fandom. Things go wrong, someone has to be fired or blamed. And nobody wants Carroll gone. Or Wilson. So that leaves Bevell.

But I'll post this again because I think it's important:

Or maybe, just maybe, when he's being told to run the best scrambling offense that features ball control and conservatism but also uses a constantly improvising quarterback within an offense that needs to throw a ton to a mobile tight end who can't block but is expected to while making the run game its focal point while somebody else calls the run plays and coaches/develops the O-line which is also highly lacking in talent...

This is actually a harder job than people want to give him credit for.

There is no doubt about that.
I am a bit conflicted about Russell's role in this whole thing. I don't think him and Bevell are a good marriage, but Pete is ultimately responsible for the be a playmaker Russ, but don't turn it over, ever, mixed message. Being a playmaker contains an element of risk Pete is uncomfortable with.

This is as good an opportunity as any to dispute something that has been stated on this board before. It has been stated on here that players have options on the routes they run based on defensive looks. If that is true, either Seattle has dullards at WR or it is only true on a handful of plays. There may be a number of auto checks based on looks, but for the most part the routes themselves appear to be pretty rigid. I watch teams on all 22 that really do have this option in their offense, and players end up sitting in zones so often that it is clear the burden of finding the hole in the zone was on the route runner. In our offense, route runners so often eschew holes in zones, unexplainably, that it is pretty clear the route is the route and has to be run just so. The real freedom in our offense to run only comes after the play breaks down.

It is also my opinion that Russell's ability to audible is rather limited. Whether that is him or the staff is hard to tell, but our tendency to get calls in late and be against the play clock is most definitely on the coaching staff and absolutely limits audibles. Plays like the one where Willson got called for the hold lead me to think that it is the staff that limits the audibling, on that particular play changing to to a pass would have exploited great matchups, but the only audible was to motion Willson to a blocking position(which created a one on one on the left side, seemingly a higher percentage pass than running into the 6 blockers on 8 run stoppers play we did actually run). That leads me to think that Wilson's ability to just change to a play more suited to the matchup is rather limited. (Ultimately, it was Dan Reeves trying to limit John Elway's ability to completely change a play on the field that cost Reeves his job)
We also shuttle personnel more than almost any team in the league, and the result is a lack of time on the play clock, and that is absolutely on the coaching staff. I think it would be a tremendous step in the right direction to find that best personnel group and keep it on the field for several plays in a row. It would afford Russell 10 extra seconds to look over a defense, potentially change a play, and perhaps get the D to tip it's hand. Right now we do the QB a huge disservice with the way we put him against the clock. It is my own very disputable opinion that this constant shuttling is also making it very difficult to get into any kind of rhythm, but I think it is equally indisputable that over time, what we do in certain personnel groups is a huge tell to the D as to what is coming.
 

Optimus25

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theENGLISHseahawk":vsl6tawr said:
Some fair points Scotte. And I'm not pro-Bevell so much as I'm just not anti-Bevell. I think he's an easy target. An easy person to vent at or to blame when things go wrong. It's common in sports fandom. Things go wrong, someone has to be fired or blamed. And nobody wants Carroll gone. Or Wilson. So that leaves Bevell.

But I'll post this again because I think it's important:

Or maybe, just maybe, when he's being told to run the best scrambling offense that features ball control and conservatism but also uses a constantly improvising quarterback within an offense that needs to throw a ton to a mobile tight end who can't block but is expected to while making the run game its focal point while somebody else calls the run plays and coaches/develops the O-line which is also highly lacking in talent...

This is actually a harder job than people want to give him credit for.

That's fair talk. I think OC is one of the most challenging roles in football. I definitely don't root against Bevell for the sake of bias. On Sundays I'm his biggest supporter, on Mondays often I'm his biggest detractor. When i see the product on the field for nfccg(s), sb49, and through losses this year, i seriously question how it could get worse. IMO the offense is only producing exactly what you'd expect these guys to produce in a backyard football game. I literally, honestly, for the sake of the team can't see many coordinators working an offseason with russ and putting out a worse product.

Coordinator is the only thing we can change since Bevell has proven he won't change himself. The line can't be vastly improved for years. Russ is the guy. Third round and below receivers paired with Jimmy is our new recipe. Our offensive woes in crunch time this year reminds me of insanity.... Doing the same things and expecting different results.

I mean more than once i recall third and less five and we throw some kind of intermediate to deep fade.... To kearse :34853_doh:

Someone making one of the most difficult jobs in the nfl more difficult for himself and the team needs to either demote or walk away.
 

OkieHawk

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Scottemojo":1x53crit said:
We also shuttle personnel more than almost any team in the league, and the result is a lack of time on the play clock, and that is absolutely on the coaching staff. I think it would be a tremendous step in the right direction to find that best personnel group and keep it on the field for several plays in a row. It would afford Russell 10 extra seconds to look over a defense, potentially change a play, and perhaps get the D to tip it's hand. Right now we do the QB a huge disservice with the way we put him against the clock. It is my own very disputable opinion that this constant shuttling is also making it very difficult to get into any kind of rhythm, but I think it is equally indisputable that over time, what we do in certain personnel groups is a huge tell to the D as to what is coming.

This has bugged me for a bit now. I get that the coaches want to shuffle players depending on the play, but they should realize that it's adversely affecting the offensive rhythm. I'm all for going no huddle from here on out to see how that works. Let Russ do his magic and put more of it on him, because I'm fairly certain he and the rest of the offense can do it.
 

MontanaHawk05

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theENGLISHseahawk":1n872ias said:
Some fair points Scotte. And I'm not pro-Bevell so much as I'm just not anti-Bevell. I think he's an easy target. An easy person to vent at or to blame when things go wrong. It's common in sports fandom. Things go wrong, someone has to be fired or blamed. And nobody wants Carroll gone. Or Wilson. So that leaves Bevell.

But I'll post this again because I think it's important:

Or maybe, just maybe, when he's being told to run the best scrambling offense that features ball control and conservatism but also uses a constantly improvising quarterback within an offense that needs to throw a ton to a mobile tight end who can't block but is expected to while making the run game its focal point while somebody else calls the run plays and coaches/develops the O-line which is also highly lacking in talent...

This is actually a harder job than people want to give him credit for.

I fully believe this is true, Rob...Russell Wilson is the toughest QB in the league to design an offense around. And we've been sapped of a lot of our best talent over the years (Sidney Rice, Golden Tate, Zach Miller, Max Unger, even James Carpenter).

Unfortunately, I see it as only more reason for Bevell to be gone. Like it or not, we're in the situation we're in. We cut loose some of our best offensive talent, we're left with Jimmy Graham, a raw O-line, and a bunch of shrimps at WR...we need someone who can handle that situation.

And while you could argue that it's a tall order, when ordinary fans are pointing out ways that it could be done (like, I dunno, stick to the run? Which Bevell has consistently struggled with even when the OL isn't committing penalties?), and when ordinary fans are seeing major structural flaws with his play designs, I'm not so sure he's the guy for us.

And I used to ascribe to the "two Super Bowls" and "look at our DVOA" thinking. But the more I think about it, the more I ask how much of both (including the explosive plays) is down to Wilson's improvisation on broken plays, and how much Bevell can take credit. I acknowledge that much of a Super Bowl's offense is improvisation anyway, but how much? And when our play designs have such basic problems, can we do better at OC?
 

mrt144

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Scottemojo":10786gh0 said:
theENGLISHseahawk":10786gh0 said:
Some fair points Scotte. And I'm not pro-Bevell so much as I'm just not anti-Bevell. I think he's an easy target. An easy person to vent at or to blame when things go wrong. It's common in sports fandom. Things go wrong, someone has to be fired or blamed. And nobody wants Carroll gone. Or Wilson. So that leaves Bevell.

But I'll post this again because I think it's important:

Or maybe, just maybe, when he's being told to run the best scrambling offense that features ball control and conservatism but also uses a constantly improvising quarterback within an offense that needs to throw a ton to a mobile tight end who can't block but is expected to while making the run game its focal point while somebody else calls the run plays and coaches/develops the O-line which is also highly lacking in talent...

This is actually a harder job than people want to give him credit for.

There is no doubt about that.
I am a bit conflicted about Russell's role in this whole thing. I don't think him and Bevell are a good marriage, but Pete is ultimately responsible for the be a playmaker Russ, but don't turn it over, ever, mixed message. Being a playmaker contains an element of risk Pete is uncomfortable with.

This is as good an opportunity as any to dispute something that has been stated on this board before. It has been stated on here that players have options on the routes they run based on defensive looks. If that is true, either Seattle has dullards at WR or it is only true on a handful of plays. There may be a number of auto checks based on looks, but for the most part the routes themselves appear to be pretty rigid. I watch teams on all 22 that really do have this option in their offense, and players end up sitting in zones so often that it is clear the burden of finding the hole in the zone was on the route runner. In our offense, route runners so often eschew holes in zones, unexplainably, that it is pretty clear the route is the route and has to be run just so. The real freedom in our offense to run only comes after the play breaks down.

It is also my opinion that Russell's ability to audible is rather limited. Whether that is him or the staff is hard to tell, but our tendency to get calls in late and be against the play clock is most definitely on the coaching staff and absolutely limits audibles. Plays like the one where Willson got called for the hold lead me to think that it is the staff that limits the audibling, on that particular play changing to to a pass would have exploited great matchups, but the only audible was to motion Willson to a blocking position(which created a one on one on the left side, seemingly a higher percentage pass than running into the 6 blockers on 8 run stoppers play we did actually run). That leads me to think that Wilson's ability to just change to a play more suited to the matchup is rather limited. (Ultimately, it was Dan Reeves trying to limit John Elway's ability to completely change a play on the field that cost Reeves his job)
We also shuttle personnel more than almost any team in the league, and the result is a lack of time on the play clock, and that is absolutely on the coaching staff. I think it would be a tremendous step in the right direction to find that best personnel group and keep it on the field for several plays in a row. It would afford Russell 10 extra seconds to look over a defense, potentially change a play, and perhaps get the D to tip it's hand. Right now we do the QB a huge disservice with the way we put him against the clock. It is my own very disputable opinion that this constant shuttling is also making it very difficult to get into any kind of rhythm, but I think it is equally indisputable that over time, what we do in certain personnel groups is a huge tell to the D as to what is coming.

I agree with all of this but especially the bolded - you can see it on zone coverage, you can see it on man coverage - on almost any long developing play almost the entirety of eligible receivers doesn't even look back towards RW because their routes are seemingly that long developing. It's like there is no adaptation by the WRs to the reality that most the time if you're running more than 10 yards, RW is going to be under duress.

That and some of the route combos themselves really don't afford awareness like that. The window where some of these plays can be successful is so small and yes, RW can do better in making them work - but that only opens the window a bit.

As to audibling, that requires practice to ensure that when the audible is called it doesn't result in a tire fire and I simply don't think given all the other holes on offense that they spend much time on it. It is a luxury to spend time on running audible plays - thinking about all the times there have been audibles it's mostly come on a Cover-0 and RW has made the big throw several times over the top.
 
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