Cody Barton is the ideal modern inside linebacker

[pcbball12]

Reading through this thread, here’s a few of my thoughts.

Loved Barton’s tape. Those wringing their hands about linebackers being able to stack and shed blocks at the college level aren’t seeing the whole picture. It’s the biggest mistake I have made over the years while evaluating linebackers. Kuechly could not get off blocks in college either, neither could Wagner. It’s the reason I wasn’t as high on either of those guys coming out, but I’ve learned my lesson. If guys can cover in the passing game, diagnose in the run game, and slip blocks, then they usually translate very well. A middle linebackers job in the run game depends greatly on the guys up front. Ideally you have at least one guy that can eat up blocks, keeping your backers clean so they can diagnose and make plays. It’s a big key to Kuechlys success as well as Wagners. On top of that, Barton shows more ability to stack and shed than either of those guys did coming out, although not the athlete. The best guys I’ve seen at the college level getting off blocks and able to plug in the run game usually never translate...because they are huge thumpers that can’t move sideline to sideline or cover. Those guys wash out pretty quickly in today’s day and age.

Barton obviously won’t start this year, barring injury. He will be a huge special teams guy for the next few years. Bobby probably gets extended an additional 2 to 3 years and then I expect Barton is the guy when he is done. BBK’s skill set is much more conducive for WILL than Barton. I expect BBK to slide in at WILL after this year, not Barton.

Put on the Wagner Auburn tape. It is a clinic for going head up against OL and shedding directly. Barton isn't remotely close to being anywhere near as effective as Wagner in that department coming out of college and Keuchly still can't stack and shed to this day. You're also not necessarily forced to choose between a huge lumberer vs a pass coverage backer. That's an extreme argument to fit a narrative.

My point was that it is rare for backers that can cover and move sideline to sideline to come out of college with the ability to stack and shed. I’ve rarely seen it. The guys I have seen come out that were great in that area in college didn’t move very well and were one dimensional. I’m sure you can pluck a game here or there where Wagner took on blocks and made plays in the run game in college. Overall, he was poor in that regard in college. Was a great athlete that could cover, move sideline to sideline, and although was a physical player he got washed out in the run game often. Kuechly still struggles with it, which is why they always are huge up front. But he still remains one of the top 2 LBs in all of football....that proves my point.

 

[vin.couve12]

Reading through this thread, here’s a few of my thoughts.

Loved Barton’s tape. Those wringing their hands about linebackers being able to stack and shed blocks at the college level aren’t seeing the whole picture. It’s the biggest mistake I have made over the years while evaluating linebackers. Kuechly could not get off blocks in college either, neither could Wagner. It’s the reason I wasn’t as high on either of those guys coming out, but I’ve learned my lesson. If guys can cover in the passing game, diagnose in the run game, and slip blocks, then they usually translate very well. A middle linebackers job in the run game depends greatly on the guys up front. Ideally you have at least one guy that can eat up blocks, keeping your backers clean so they can diagnose and make plays. It’s a big key to Kuechlys success as well as Wagners. On top of that, Barton shows more ability to stack and shed than either of those guys did coming out, although not the athlete. The best guys I’ve seen at the college level getting off blocks and able to plug in the run game usually never translate...because they are huge thumpers that can’t move sideline to sideline or cover. Those guys wash out pretty quickly in today’s day and age.

Barton obviously won’t start this year, barring injury. He will be a huge special teams guy for the next few years. Bobby probably gets extended an additional 2 to 3 years and then I expect Barton is the guy when he is done. BBK’s skill set is much more conducive for WILL than Barton. I expect BBK to slide in at WILL after this year, not Barton.

Put on the Wagner Auburn tape. It is a clinic for going head up against OL and shedding directly. Barton isn't remotely close to being anywhere near as effective as Wagner in that department coming out of college and Keuchly still can't stack and shed to this day. You're also not necessarily forced to choose between a huge lumberer vs a pass coverage backer. That's an extreme argument to fit a narrative.

My point was that it is rare for backers that can cover and move sideline to sideline to come out of college with the ability to stack and shed. I’ve rarely seen it. The guys I have seen come out that were great in that area in college didn’t move very well and were one dimensional. I’m sure you can pluck a game here or there where Wagner took on blocks and made plays in the run game in college. Overall, he was poor in that regard in college. Was a great athlete that could cover, move sideline to sideline, and although was a physical player he got washed out in the run game often. Kuechly still struggles with it, which is why they always are huge up front. But he still remains one of the top 2 LBs in all of football....that proves my point.

There is no plucking a game. It was clearly evident when I was scouting Mike backers after we knew Heater wasn't coming back. Wagner was THE Mike backer. Every other player had tradeoffs. I knew that our new Mike would have to be adept at taking on blocks due to our defense, where he lined up, and that there was an emphasis of every man doing their job per their gap responsibility. Keuchly was almost immediately discarded due to his constantly giving ground and running away from blocks so he could make tackles downfield. You couldn't count on him to stay in his gap. The only other player I considered that year was Hightower, but he was a 4.65 guy, if I remember right, and wasn't going to be able to cover enough geound necessary in a cover 3 because you only have 2 zone LBs in the middle of the field in a conservative defense that dictated 3 men deep. It's a defense that is harder on non-flat zone LBs.

Enter Bobby wagner tapes and you clearly see that you have to sacrifice nothing.

The fact that you're saying what you are tells me you never watched these "tapes" and went off scouting reports to afraid to step onto the small school ledge. Either that or extremely influenced by them. There are 3 vs games on youtube for Barton, which is every play he was in on those games. I've watched all 3 twice over now and he has trouble, flat out. His playing weight was supposedly 227 spread out over 6'2 and a half with below average explosion numbers and it clearly shows.

Edit: There was also Kendricks that year, but I said he was going to end up a WLB too. There was a stanford game that put the nail in that coffin. He's fine when he can use explosion to meet an OL, but if he's not running at them then he would get engulfed.

 

[pcbball12]

Reading through this thread, here’s a few of my thoughts.

Loved Barton’s tape. Those wringing their hands about linebackers being able to stack and shed blocks at the college level aren’t seeing the whole picture. It’s the biggest mistake I have made over the years while evaluating linebackers. Kuechly could not get off blocks in college either, neither could Wagner. It’s the reason I wasn’t as high on either of those guys coming out, but I’ve learned my lesson. If guys can cover in the passing game, diagnose in the run game, and slip blocks, then they usually translate very well. A middle linebackers job in the run game depends greatly on the guys up front. Ideally you have at least one guy that can eat up blocks, keeping your backers clean so they can diagnose and make plays. It’s a big key to Kuechlys success as well as Wagners. On top of that, Barton shows more ability to stack and shed than either of those guys did coming out, although not the athlete. The best guys I’ve seen at the college level getting off blocks and able to plug in the run game usually never translate...because they are huge thumpers that can’t move sideline to sideline or cover. Those guys wash out pretty quickly in today’s day and age.

Barton obviously won’t start this year, barring injury. He will be a huge special teams guy for the next few years. Bobby probably gets extended an additional 2 to 3 years and then I expect Barton is the guy when he is done. BBK’s skill set is much more conducive for WILL than Barton. I expect BBK to slide in at WILL after this year, not Barton.

Put on the Wagner Auburn tape. It is a clinic for going head up against OL and shedding directly. Barton isn't remotely close to being anywhere near as effective as Wagner in that department coming out of college and Keuchly still can't stack and shed to this day. You're also not necessarily forced to choose between a huge lumberer vs a pass coverage backer. That's an extreme argument to fit a narrative.

My point was that it is rare for backers that can cover and move sideline to sideline to come out of college with the ability to stack and shed. I’ve rarely seen it. The guys I have seen come out that were great in that area in college didn’t move very well and were one dimensional. I’m sure you can pluck a game here or there where Wagner took on blocks and made plays in the run game in college. Overall, he was poor in that regard in college. Was a great athlete that could cover, move sideline to sideline, and although was a physical player he got washed out in the run game often. Kuechly still struggles with it, which is why they always are huge up front. But he still remains one of the top 2 LBs in all of football....that proves my point.

There is no plucking a game. It was clearly evident when I was scouting Mike backers after we knew Heater wasn't coming back. Wagner was THE Mike backer. Every other player had tradeoffs. I knew that our new Mike would have to be adept at taking on blocks due to our defense, where he lined up, and that there was an emphasis of every man doing their job per their gap responsibility. Keuchly was almost immediately discarded due to his constantly giving ground and running away from blocks so he could make tackles downfield. You couldn't count on him to stay in his gap. The only other player I considered that year was Hightower, but he was a 4.65 guy, if I remember right, and wasn't going to be able to cover enough geound necessary in a cover 3 because you only have 2 zone LBs in the middle of the field in a conservative defense that dictated 3 men deep. It's a defense that is harder on non-flat zone LBs.

Enter Bobby wagner tapes and you clearly see that you have to sacrifice nothing.

The fact that you're saying what you are tells me you never watched these "tapes" and went off scouting reports to afraid to step onto the small school ledge. Either that or extremely influenced by them. There are 3 vs games on youtube for Barton, which is every play he was in on those games. I've watched all 3 twice over now and he has trouble, flat out. His playing weight was supposedly 227 spread out over 6'2 and a half with below average explosion numbers and it clearly shows.

Edit: There was also Kendricks that year, but I said he was going to end up a WLB too. There was a stanford game that put the nail in that coffin. He's fine when he can use explosion to meet an OL, but if he's not running at them then he would get engulfed.

You’re barking up the wrong tree with the comment about not looking at the “tapes”. I have been intensely evaluating college players since 2011. Keeping legitimate databases on every player in each draft. While I can’t get to every player in the draft every year because I work a minimum of 40 hours a week and have a family, I watch 3-5 games on 200-250 draft eligible players a year. Just because I don’t get onto this site with an air horn showing everyone how much i know doesn’t mean I don’t put in the work. I browse this site rarely, and comment when I feel a need to. I use different platforms for my hobby.

I did watch Wagner. I had a late 2nd round grade on him, and it would have been higher had I thought he was better in the run game. I actually had the same grade on Kuechly as well for the same reasons. I also was bullish on Hightower, but he definitely was not a sideline to sideline guy and while he covered better than I expected, it wasn’t at all a strength. Hightower was my top rated backer in that draft, and that was a mistake obviously. The only reason I brought those two up in the first place was to talk about my mistake in their evaluations and me learning from that mistake. I used to put way too much into the ability to get off blocks in my linebacker evaluations, and every year I see guys that struggle with it come into the league and light the league on fire. I want to say Jim Nagy even made a similar comment on twitter not too long ago about linebacker evaluations. We disagree on our past Wagner evaluations, that’s fine and that is common in scouting/evaluating players. It’s what makes the process so great really.

 

[Jville]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BradyHenderson/status/1131286070283317248[/tweet]

 

[vin.couve12]

Put on the Wagner Auburn tape. It is a clinic for going head up against OL and shedding directly. Barton isn't remotely close to being anywhere near as effective as Wagner in that department coming out of college and Keuchly still can't stack and shed to this day. You're also not necessarily forced to choose between a huge lumberer vs a pass coverage backer. That's an extreme argument to fit a narrative.

My point was that it is rare for backers that can cover and move sideline to sideline to come out of college with the ability to stack and shed. I’ve rarely seen it. The guys I have seen come out that were great in that area in college didn’t move very well and were one dimensional. I’m sure you can pluck a game here or there where Wagner took on blocks and made plays in the run game in college. Overall, he was poor in that regard in college. Was a great athlete that could cover, move sideline to sideline, and although was a physical player he got washed out in the run game often. Kuechly still struggles with it, which is why they always are huge up front. But he still remains one of the top 2 LBs in all of football....that proves my point.

There is no plucking a game. It was clearly evident when I was scouting Mike backers after we knew Heater wasn't coming back. Wagner was THE Mike backer. Every other player had tradeoffs. I knew that our new Mike would have to be adept at taking on blocks due to our defense, where he lined up, and that there was an emphasis of every man doing their job per their gap responsibility. Keuchly was almost immediately discarded due to his constantly giving ground and running away from blocks so he could make tackles downfield. You couldn't count on him to stay in his gap. The only other player I considered that year was Hightower, but he was a 4.65 guy, if I remember right, and wasn't going to be able to cover enough geound necessary in a cover 3 because you only have 2 zone LBs in the middle of the field in a conservative defense that dictated 3 men deep. It's a defense that is harder on non-flat zone LBs.

Enter Bobby wagner tapes and you clearly see that you have to sacrifice nothing.

The fact that you're saying what you are tells me you never watched these "tapes" and went off scouting reports to afraid to step onto the small school ledge. Either that or extremely influenced by them. There are 3 vs games on youtube for Barton, which is every play he was in on those games. I've watched all 3 twice over now and he has trouble, flat out. His playing weight was supposedly 227 spread out over 6'2 and a half with below average explosion numbers and it clearly shows.

Edit: There was also Kendricks that year, but I said he was going to end up a WLB too. There was a stanford game that put the nail in that coffin. He's fine when he can use explosion to meet an OL, but if he's not running at them then he would get engulfed.

You’re barking up the wrong tree with the comment about not looking at the “tapes”. I have been intensely evaluating college players since 2011. Keeping legitimate databases on every player in each draft. While I can’t get to every player in the draft every year because I work a minimum of 40 hours a week and have a family, I watch 3-5 games on 200-250 draft eligible players a year. Just because I don’t get onto this site with an air horn showing everyone how much i know doesn’t mean I don’t put in the work. I browse this site rarely, and comment when I feel a need to. I use different platforms for my hobby.

I did watch Wagner. I had a late 2nd round grade on him, and it would have been higher had I thought he was better in the run game. I actually had the same grade on Kuechly as well for the same reasons. I also was bullish on Hightower, but he definitely was not a sideline to sideline guy and while he covered better than I expected, it wasn’t at all a strength. Hightower was my top rated backer in that draft, and that was a mistake obviously. The only reason I brought those two up in the first place was to talk about my mistake in their evaluations and me learning from that mistake. I used to put way too much into the ability to get off blocks in my linebacker evaluations, and every year I see guys that struggle with it come into the league and light the league on fire. I want to say Jim Nagy even made a similar comment on twitter not too long ago about linebacker evaluations. We disagree on our past Wagner evaluations, that’s fine and that is common in scouting/evaluating players. It’s what makes the process so great really.

Fair enough and apologies. For reference, however, that Auburn tape was significant due to validation against quality of competition. Auburn OL vs SDSU OL and such. Agree to disagree though...