Cassius Marsh...conditioning = phenomenal.

[HansGruber]

The bench press is the silliest measurement of strength possible outside of bicep curls. I heard a strength and conditioning coach say in an interview that they basically just use the benchpress to gauge someone's overall fitness and commitment to lifting, as young guys tend to focus on pectorals in the gym.

If I was a GM and could only use one or two exercises to measure a person's strength, I'd be much more interested in their squat and deadlift numbers. Both give you a far better idea of core strength, and specifically glute and lower-body (quad, etc) strength, explosiveness, etc. Deadlifts give you a great idea of strength proportional to body mass.

Bench presses? Great for getting a beach body. Pretty much worthless when it comes to "real-world" or athletic strength.

Check out the list of bench press records in the Combine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Scouti ... ss_records

Not exactly a list of all-time NFL greats. There's only one or two names I even recognize on that list. Pretty hilarious that Brock Lesnar is one of them. He couldn't even sustain any real success in MMA, even with his massive weight advantage.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Big Walt used to push around an SUV for training in the off-season. THAT is some serious strength.

 

[Tech Worlds]

So Hans... What's your bench?

 

[Basis4day]

I vaguely recall an interview with Michael Bennett where he said he rarely benches as it has very limited effect on meaningful strength for a pass rusher.

Dave Wyman has said on a couple of occasions that he was always able to bench more than Tez during his playing years.

 

[bmorepunk]

The bench press is the silliest measurement of strength possible outside of bicep curls. I heard a strength and conditioning coach say in an interview that they basically just use the benchpress to gauge someone's overall fitness and commitment to lifting, as young guys tend to focus on pectorals in the gym.

If I was a GM and could only use one or two exercises to measure a person's strength, I'd be much more interested in their squat and deadlift numbers. Both give you a far better idea of core strength, and specifically glute and lower-body (quad, etc) strength, explosiveness, etc. Deadlifts give you a great idea of strength proportional to body mass.

Bench presses? Great for getting a beach body. Pretty much worthless when it comes to "real-world" or athletic strength.

Check out the list of bench press records in the Combine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Scouti ... ss_records

Not exactly a list of all-time NFL greats. There's only one or two names I even recognize on that list. Pretty hilarious that Brock Lesnar is one of them. He couldn't even sustain any real success in MMA, even with his massive weight advantage.

The bench press is a bad measure of overall strength, although I wouldn't say that it's the silliest next to curls. There are a lot of assistance exercises that get more emphasis than they should and people somehow think they're strong because they supposedly have a big number. How many people claim that they are strong because they can leg press some stupid number (partial range of motion on a machine)?

If they would replace the bench with the squat at the combine it would probably be more useful in gauging players. I also am amazed at the slop that passes for a bench press at the combine; the bounce off the chest these guys do is insane.

Strength can be best measured by squats and deadlifts as you stated. If you want to measure full-body strength through the entire kinetic chain, overhead pressing is the ultimate tool (and I'm not talking about seated or behind the neck or whatever less useful/more risk variations people choose to do at the gym).

Unfortunately, too much emphasis on the bench press in recent decades has caused most people to stop doing overhead pressing altogether. Bench pressing is one of the four most important compound lifts (squat, deadlift, OH press, bench press) but is also the least important out of the four for strength development. There is no other lift that is going to develop the upper body as completely as the bench press; it doesn't just adapt triceps and pectorals like some people think. Unfortunately, focusing on it causes a strength imbalance in the shoulder that should be countered with overhead pressing.

Although it's use and the use of curls is a disease by "bros" in the gym who have skinny legs and don't squat, it certainly shouldn't be ignored. I wouldn't leave it out of a football player's lifting because when the power movement is over it becomes a strength grind somewhere between a bench and overhead press when you're grappling with another player.

 

[HansGruber]

So Hans... What's your bench?

3 sets @ 10-12 reps, 125-140lbs - 1x / week on flat bench. Dumbbell pushup rows actually give a better (and more complete) workout if you're looking to improve pectoral strength and function, as it also develops the latissimi dorsi which is just as essential to the movements affected by the pectoralis major.


Here's some accurate info on what your pectoralis major actually does:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectoralis ... e#Function

The only advantage of bench press to a football player would be slightly improved strength when lifting a person straight up into the air, or when blocking as you bring your arms up from your hips to shoulder level.

Even then, if you have two athletes square off and push into each other in such a foward, upward movement - the athlete with better lower body and core strength will win easily every time. An athlete like Michael Bennett, who plants his feet and then explodes upward, would see a vastly greater improvement by focusing on deadlifts and squats - especially deadlifts.

 

[HansGruber]

The bench press is a bad measure of overall strength, although I wouldn't say that it's the silliest next to curls. There are a lot of assistance exercises that get more emphasis than they should and people somehow think they're strong because they supposedly have a big number. How many people claim that they are strong because they can leg press some stupid number (partial range of motion on a machine)?

If they would replace the bench with the squat at the combine it would probably be more useful in gauging players. I also am amazed at the slop that passes for a bench press at the combine; the bounce off the chest these guys do is insane.

Strength can be best measured by squats and deadlifts as you stated. If you want to measure full-body strength through the entire kinetic chain, overhead pressing is the ultimate tool (and I'm not talking about seated or behind the neck or whatever less useful/more risk variations people choose to do at the gym).

Unfortunately, too much emphasis on the bench press in recent decades has caused most people to stop doing overhead pressing altogether. Bench pressing is one of the four most important compound lifts (squat, deadlift, OH press, bench press) but is also the least important out of the four for strength development. There is no other lift that is going to develop the upper body as completely as the bench press; it doesn't just adapt triceps and pectorals like some people think. Unfortunately, focusing on it causes a strength imbalance in the shoulder that should be countered with overhead pressing.

Although it's use and the use of curls is a disease by "bros" in the gym who have skinny legs and don't squat, it certainly shouldn't be ignored. I wouldn't leave it out of a football player's lifting because when the power movement is over it becomes a strength grind somewhere between a bench and overhead press when you're grappling with another player.

An excellent post, which I agree with almost in entirety.

However, overhead presses are losing popularity because they are extremely risky and are the #1 cause of shoulder injuries such as labral tears. When doing an overhead press, one must be EXTREMELY vigilant about proper form and make sure the core is as tight as possible. Further, it should not be a regular part of your cycle. Repeated stress to the rotator cuff, and specifically the labrum, is the #1 way to take yourself out of commission (and trust me, I've done it a few times, and it is NOT fun).

Although you are definitely correct in that the overhead squat and overhead press are two excellent workouts that can really improve one's core and functional strength dramatically. And they are by far a better display of overall strength than a measly bench press, especially one in which someone is just bouncing the weight off the chest.

That's why you see these workouts at the core of the crossfit movement - deadlifts, squats, overhead press/squat, and rows. Yes, the press can still be somewhat useful in developing core strength, but as I said earlier, a dumbbell pushup row is still a better (more complete) workout due to the fact that you are building your latissimi in concert. The pectoralis major will always be limited by the latissimi dorsi and vice-versa.

 

[ManBunts]

So Hans... What's your bench?

3 sets @ 10-12 reps, 125-140lbs - 1x / week on flat bench. Dumbbell pushup rows actually give a better (and more complete) workout if you're looking to improve pectoral strength and function, as it also develops the latissimi dorsi which is just as essential to the movements affected by the pectoralis major.


Here's some accurate info on what your pectoralis major actually does:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectoralis ... e#Function

The only advantage of bench press to a football player would be slightly improved strength when lifting a person straight up into the air, or when blocking as you bring your arms up from your hips to shoulder level.

Even then, if you have two athletes square off and push into each other in such a foward, upward movement - the athlete with better lower body and core strength will win easily every time. An athlete like Michael Bennett, who plants his feet and then explodes upward, would see a vastly greater improvement by focusing on deadlifts and squats - especially deadlifts.

The bench press is an absolutely worthless gauge of a person's functional strength - especially in a sport like football.

I'll grant you that benchpress isn't the best gauge of a player's overall strength. No singular exercise is as we're not talking about a static sport here, but I think it's an easily accepted and understood measurement. Lots of people don't understand the other drills like 3-cone or shuttle, so they point to something they can grasp when talking about a player's physicality.

That said, bench press is not a worthless work out for a lineman. The first contact you make is with your hands. Shoot 'em up from the hips, stand your opponent up, win the battle for center of gravity, but then you have to disengage. You can shove, swim, rip, whatever your move is, but that initial contact to stand the guy up is all arms. And lots of DE's come up from a 3-point stance like to use a stiff arm to shove a guy off balance and blow by. Again, strength involve, essentially, pushing the arms away from the chest. True, it's rarely straight out (if so you probably lost that battle), but the motion and muscles are still there.

 

[HansGruber]

So Hans... What's your bench?

3 sets @ 10-12 reps, 125-140lbs - 1x / week on flat bench. Dumbbell pushup rows actually give a better (and more complete) workout if you're looking to improve pectoral strength and function, as it also develops the latissimi dorsi which is just as essential to the movements affected by the pectoralis major.


Here's some accurate info on what your pectoralis major actually does:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectoralis ... e#Function

The only advantage of bench press to a football player would be slightly improved strength when lifting a person straight up into the air, or when blocking as you bring your arms up from your hips to shoulder level.

Even then, if you have two athletes square off and push into each other in such a foward, upward movement - the athlete with better lower body and core strength will win easily every time. An athlete like Michael Bennett, who plants his feet and then explodes upward, would see a vastly greater improvement by focusing on deadlifts and squats - especially deadlifts.

The bench press is an absolutely worthless gauge of a person's functional strength - especially in a sport like football.

I'll grant you that benchpress isn't the best gauge of a player's overall strength. No singular exercise is as we're not talking about a static sport here, but I think it's an easily accepted and understood measurement. Lots of people don't understand the other drills like 3-cone or shuttle, so they point to something they can grasp when talking about a player's physicality.

That said, bench press is not a worthless work out for a lineman. The first contact you make is with your hands. Shoot 'em up from the hips, stand your opponent up, win the battle for center of gravity, but then you have to disengage. You can shove, swim, rip, whatever your move is, but that initial contact to stand the guy up is all arms. And lots of DE's come up from a 3-point stance like to use a stiff arm to shove a guy off balance and blow by. Again, strength involve, essentially, pushing the arms away from the chest. True, it's rarely straight out (if so you probably lost that battle), but the motion and muscles are still there.

The majority of strength in a stiff arm type movement will come from the latissimi dorsi rather than the pectoralis - they are both used, but the latissimi moreso than the pectoralis. Marshawn Lynch has a workout video online where you can see the workout he claims gives him his stiff arm strength - which is essentially a dumbbell push row.

Further, while I agree that the pectoralis helps in developing push-off strength, i.e. a player pushing forward into another player, pushing him backward and upward - you will still find that most of that strength comes from lower-body strength, and the player will still see a bigger improvement from improving lower-body strength. It's a simple matter of physics.

By dropping into the flexor and driving upward, one can utilize the largest muscle group in your body - the gluteal group. In other words, the guy with the biggest butt will always win. Bigger butts are better than bigger chests. Sir Mix-a-lot was right.

 

[bmorepunk]

The bench press is a bad measure of overall strength, although I wouldn't say that it's the silliest next to curls. There are a lot of assistance exercises that get more emphasis than they should and people somehow think they're strong because they supposedly have a big number. How many people claim that they are strong because they can leg press some stupid number (partial range of motion on a machine)?

If they would replace the bench with the squat at the combine it would probably be more useful in gauging players. I also am amazed at the slop that passes for a bench press at the combine; the bounce off the chest these guys do is insane.

Strength can be best measured by squats and deadlifts as you stated. If you want to measure full-body strength through the entire kinetic chain, overhead pressing is the ultimate tool (and I'm not talking about seated or behind the neck or whatever less useful/more risk variations people choose to do at the gym).

Unfortunately, too much emphasis on the bench press in recent decades has caused most people to stop doing overhead pressing altogether. Bench pressing is one of the four most important compound lifts (squat, deadlift, OH press, bench press) but is also the least important out of the four for strength development. There is no other lift that is going to develop the upper body as completely as the bench press; it doesn't just adapt triceps and pectorals like some people think. Unfortunately, focusing on it causes a strength imbalance in the shoulder that should be countered with overhead pressing.

Although it's use and the use of curls is a disease by "bros" in the gym who have skinny legs and don't squat, it certainly shouldn't be ignored. I wouldn't leave it out of a football player's lifting because when the power movement is over it becomes a strength grind somewhere between a bench and overhead press when you're grappling with another player.

An excellent post, which I agree with almost in entirety.

However, overhead presses are losing popularity because they are extremely risky and are the #1 cause of shoulder injuries such as labral tears. When doing an overhead press, one must be EXTREMELY vigilant about proper form and make sure the core is as tight as possible. Further, it should not be a regular part of your cycle. Repeated stress to the rotator cuff, and specifically the labrum, is the #1 way to take yourself out of commission (and trust me, I've done it a few times, and it is NOT fun).

Although you are definitely correct in that the overhead squat and overhead press are two excellent workouts that can really improve one's core and functional strength dramatically. And they are by far a better display of overall strength than a measly bench press, especially one in which someone is just bouncing the weight off the chest.

That's why you see these workouts at the core of the crossfit movement - deadlifts, squats, overhead press/squat, and rows. Yes, the press can still be somewhat useful in developing core strength, but as I said earlier, a dumbbell pushup row is still a better (more complete) workout due to the fact that you are building your latissimi in concert. The pectoralis major will always be limited by the latissimi dorsi and vice-versa.

I don't agree on the press; legendary strength athletes/coaches like Bill Starr are quick to point out that the press was the premier lift before the 70s (and it's a shame that the clean and press was removed from the Olympics) before the bench press took over. They will tell you that shoulder injuries were quite rare then due to the use of the press to strengthen the shoulder girdle.

Presses get a bad reputation like squats because people are doing them wrong. I know a lot of people that will not squat because it "hurts their knees". What they need is proper coaching, but a lot of people just throw a bar on and do what seems to feel good. In fact, depending on the pathology a lot of people have used pressing and pull ups to rehab shoulder injuries quicker (it was instrumental for me in repairing a torn supraspinatus tendon from a serious impact injury).

I've never needed to focus on lats; deadlifting over 2x my bodyweight makes everything in my back big and strong (to a hunchback level which my wife gives me crap about). Pull ups as an assistance exercise probably help a lot as well.

 

[bmorepunk]

So Hans... What's your bench?

3 sets @ 10-12 reps, 125-140lbs - 1x / week on flat bench. Dumbbell pushup rows actually give a better (and more complete) workout if you're looking to improve pectoral strength and function, as it also develops the latissimi dorsi which is just as essential to the movements affected by the pectoralis major.


Here's some accurate info on what your pectoralis major actually does:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectoralis ... e#Function

The only advantage of bench press to a football player would be slightly improved strength when lifting a person straight up into the air, or when blocking as you bring your arms up from your hips to shoulder level.

Even then, if you have two athletes square off and push into each other in such a foward, upward movement - the athlete with better lower body and core strength will win easily every time. An athlete like Michael Bennett, who plants his feet and then explodes upward, would see a vastly greater improvement by focusing on deadlifts and squats - especially deadlifts.

The bench press is an absolutely worthless gauge of a person's functional strength - especially in a sport like football.

I'll grant you that benchpress isn't the best gauge of a player's overall strength. No singular exercise is as we're not talking about a static sport here, but I think it's an easily accepted and understood measurement. Lots of people don't understand the other drills like 3-cone or shuttle, so they point to something they can grasp when talking about a player's physicality.

That said, bench press is not a worthless work out for a lineman. The first contact you make is with your hands. Shoot 'em up from the hips, stand your opponent up, win the battle for center of gravity, but then you have to disengage. You can shove, swim, rip, whatever your move is, but that initial contact to stand the guy up is all arms. And lots of DE's come up from a 3-point stance like to use a stiff arm to shove a guy off balance and blow by. Again, strength involve, essentially, pushing the arms away from the chest. True, it's rarely straight out (if so you probably lost that battle), but the motion and muscles are still there.

The squat is the single exercise that could tell you about an athlete's overall strength accurately. Almost every athletic movement (football included) starts at the hips and generates outward. The squat trains everything in strongest part of the body in and around the hips.