Can we talk Bevell?

[dontbelikethat]

Another thing to think about, is Bates is a huge part of the reason we won the playoff game against the Saints in 2010.

I forgot how he left and on what terms, but I think he was the reason Alex Gibbs wanted to retire.

 

[RolandDeschain]

I don't think we ever got very many details on that whole thing, or if we did, I didn't catch them; but yeah, what I do recall is they butted heads. I'd be curious to know more about what happened there. I'd love to bring Bates back right now, though...

 

[pehawk]

He left because McDaniel's became available, and they made a play for him.

That's my own theory, and I'm alone in it, but I'd put a paycheck on it.

 

[SirTed]

Boy was I glad to see not one, but TWO half back screens in this game. INCREDIBLE.

Does anyone know why we wouldn't utilize these more, considering defense's propensity blitz recently.

 

[CEHawk]

Boy was I glad to see not one, but TWO half back screens in this game. INCREDIBLE.

Does anyone know why we wouldn't utilize these more, considering defense's propensity blitz recently.

^^ One of my points too!

 

[ivotuk]

Jeremy Bates was fired because he ignored the run game and tried to get Hasselbeck to throw downfield. Remember the Falcons Babineaux getting the sack/td on Matt? That was a throw downfield according to Matt, "Obomanu was open for a TD down the field."

I thought he was a very ingenious play caller but he called too many pass plays. Bevell is a very good play caller and got to the NFCC with a very good Vikings team.

He's easily good enough to get this team to a Super Bowl win but I would like to see more screens and roll outs for Russell. Play pocket passer when you're going against an average line with a complete O-Line, NOT when you are going against one of the best Defenses in the NFL with a makeshift O-Line.

 

[seedhawk]

Could it be that Cable, not Bevell should be our whipping boy/coach? Seems to me Cable's "zone scheme" is designed to help guy's like Lynch at the expense of guy's like Wilson.

I'm not sure I understand what one thing has to do with the other? The way we run block hurts our passing game?

Give Bevell freedom to do anything he wants, and I bet our offense looks entirely different. :twocents:

I think the problem is Bevell isn't giving Russ enough freedom, not vice-versa. It still feel like Bevell has the training wheels on #3 and isn't letting Russ run the game from the field the way he did to end last season.

1) No, the way we run block has no effect on our pass game, however, Cables "zone scheme" does not efficiently open passing lanes.

2) Is it really Bevell who isn't giving Russ enough freedom, or PC not giving Bevell enough freedom to turn Russ loose? Or, to further the arguement, do Cables block schemes limit what Bevell can do with Russ?

 

[ivotuk]

seedhawk has a point about the blocking, it hasn't been up to snuff so neither has the running game and that effects the passing game.

 

[General Manager]

Bevell is always going to be handcuffed by Wilson's height and the limited offensive talent on this team, but he does have room to improve.

What Wilson needs is a monster center and a great TE, no disrespect to Unger and Miller but they need better for Wilson to be at his best.

 

[TDOTSEAHAWK]

Has anyone considered that maybe our offensive line is not that effective in pass blocking...and by not that effective - I mean horrendous?

How does one develop a passing game when you can't keep the QB off the turf? How do you get a QB out of the pocket against a wide edge rush 3-4? How do you call a 5-7 step drop when you have the defensive player of the year against a makeshift middle offensive line? Remember, you need at least 5 step drops with Russell. Moreover, much of our offense this year was going to be based around quick backfield stuff with Harvin - mainly because of Wilson's inability to throw quick slants. Of course, that is out the window now. So we have a coordinator, who can't execute the variant offense he wants because he doesn't have the ponies and can't run a more conventional gameplan because he doesn't have the ponies.

The recurring theme is that he doesn't have the ponies.

Moreover, am I the only one that thinks Bevell did a decent job on Sunday? Our initial gameplan obviously didn't work because it was blown up by a great defense. This is a recurring theme because we have played 3 of the best front 7s in the league and our offensive line needs a lot of help.

A great military saying is that no plan survives first contact with the enemy. I think we have so much trouble planning because it is difficult to predict how bad our offensive line will play and that opens up much of the opposition's defensive playbook. I would be much more concerned with Bevell if we didn't make those second half adjustments but I think he has done an admirable job with what he has.

I really think we need to address offensive line next year - plain and simple. Until our offensive line stays on the field and is effective - it will be very difficult to dominate games on offense. We simply won't. Moreover, when we get Harvin back - we may finally get to see the looks I know Bevell will run to open up that quick passing game.

Lastly, the Bates talk is borderline absurd. If Bates was such a fantastic co-ordinator - why didn't he get another OC job right away? Or job in general? But at the end of the day, that argument could never be had which is the point of making such comments to begin with. They are safe. "Bates is better...and you can't prove that I am wrong." The grass is greener. I appreciate he had one amazing game and did well with what he had, and I have no reason to believe that he would have done much worse than Bevell. But there is certainly a paucity of evidence that he would have done better. At the end of the day, I am pretty sure he was fired because he did not want to commit to the running game which is mandated by Carroll.

Rant over.

 

[pehawk]

All I said was I appreciated Bates passing attack. What are you talking about, Sugarplum?

 

[DavidSeven]

Has anyone considered that maybe our offensive line is not that effective in pass blocking...and by not that effective - I mean horrendous?

How does one develop a passing game when you can't keep the QB off the turf? How do you get a QB out of the pocket against a wide edge rush 3-4? How do you call a 5-7 step drop when you have the defensive player of the year against a makeshift middle offensive line? Remember, you need at least 5 step drops with Russell. Moreover, much of our offense this year was going to be based around quick backfield stuff with Harvin - mainly because of Wilson's inability to throw quick slants. Of course, that is out the window now. So we have a coordinator, who can't execute the variant offense he wants because he doesn't have the ponies and can't run a more conventional gameplan because he doesn't have the ponies.

The recurring theme is that he doesn't have the ponies.

Moreover, am I the only one that thinks Bevell did a decent job on Sunday? Our initial gameplan obviously didn't work because it was blown up by a great defense. This is a recurring theme because we have played 3 of the best front 7s in the league and our offensive line needs a lot of help.

A great military saying is that no plan survives first contact with the enemy. I think we have so much trouble planning because it is difficult to predict how bad our offensive line will play and that opens up much of the opposition's defensive playbook. I would be much more concerned with Bevell if we didn't make those second half adjustments but I think he has done an admirable job with what he has.

I really think we need to address offensive line next year - plain and simple. Until our offensive line stays on the field and is effective - it will be very difficult to dominate games on offense. We simply won't. Moreover, when we get Harvin back - we may finally get to see the looks I know Bevell will run to open up that quick passing game.

Lastly, the Bates talk is borderline absurd. If Bates was such a fantastic co-ordinator - why didn't he get another OC job right away? Or job in general? But at the end of the day, that argument could never be had which is the point of making such comments to begin with. They are safe. "Bates is better...and you can't prove that I am wrong." I appreciate he had one amazing game and did well with what he had, and I have no reason to believe that he would have done much worse than Bevell. But there is certainly a paucity of evidence that he would have done better. At the end of the day, I am pretty sure he was fired because he did not want to commit to the running game which is mandated by Carroll.

Rant over.

This. All of it.

 

[Scottemojo]

There is no need to romanticize the truly awful Bates in order to discredit Bevell. Does anyone remember the 15 yard fades on 4th and short? The Saints playoff game aside, Bates did not get the memo on how this team was going to be bad ass.

 

[kearly]

There is no need to romanticize the truly awful Bates in order to discredit Bevell. Does anyone remember the 15 yard fades on 4th and short? The Saints playoff game aside, Bates did not get the memo on how this team was going to be bad ass.

Have to differ here. Our short yardage run game was maybe the worst in the NFL that season. I think those playcalls were more by necessity than by preference.

 

[AbsolutNET]

Could it be that Cable, not Bevell should be our whipping boy/coach? Seems to me Cable's "zone scheme" is designed to help guy's like Lynch at the expense of guy's like Wilson.

I'm not sure I understand what one thing has to do with the other? The way we run block hurts our passing game?

Give Bevell freedom to do anything he wants, and I bet our offense looks entirely different. :twocents:

I think the problem is Bevell isn't giving Russ enough freedom, not vice-versa. It still feel like Bevell has the training wheels on #3 and isn't letting Russ run the game from the field the way he did to end last season.

1) No, the way we run block has no effect on our pass game, however, Cables "zone scheme" does not efficiently open passing lanes.

2) Is it really Bevell who isn't giving Russ enough freedom, or PC not giving Bevell enough freedom to turn Russ loose? Or, to further the arguement, do Cables block schemes limit what Bevell can do with Russ?

I don't think you understand what "zone blocking scheme" means, to be perfectly honest. Zone blocking is a method of teaching run blocking. You can use a zone concept in some pass protections, but there's only so many ways to pass protect. I would venture that our pass pro schemes are not what is causing our passing game to suffer. The talent executing them, sure, but it's not like we are not accounting for defenders in pass pro.

 

[Scottemojo]

There is no need to romanticize the truly awful Bates in order to discredit Bevell. Does anyone remember the 15 yard fades on 4th and short? The Saints playoff game aside, Bates did not get the memo on how this team was going to be bad ass.

Have to differ here. Our short yardage run game was maybe the worst in the NFL that season. I think those playcalls were more by necessity than by preference.

If they had worked, we could say that. They were prayers.

Bevell started to go down this road too, with no huddle. In a loss to the 'Boys, Pete and Cable re established that running would be the identity. Winning that game became inconsequential, claiming identity was paramount. Bevell got onboard. (IMO, that game will prove to be the most pivotal of Pete's tenure in Seattle.) Bates never could get that. If Bates had been an insufferable fool who got Pete's vision, I suspect he would still be here, or be head coaching elsewhere. It was never about what we could and could not do in the running game in 2010, it was about not having the will to try. Bates didn't have the will. Beastquake wasn't evidence Bates could call plays, it was damning proof that all season they should have been establishing that very identity.

In Carolina last year, Chud has been accused of ignoring the team's needs to boost his chances to be a HC somewhere else. I feel like Bates was doing that very thing in Seattle, it just didn't work.

Since that game in Dallas, Pete has been very protective of that identity. We will run the ball. IF it isn't there, we will try to run the ball. Run or die trying, the street fight mentality identity of his team depends on it.

 

[olyfan63]

I don't think you understand what "zone blocking scheme" means, to be perfectly honest. Zone blocking is a method of teaching run blocking. You can use a zone concept in some pass protections, but there's only so many ways to pass protect. I would venture that our pass pro schemes are not what is causing our passing game to suffer. The talent executing them, sure, but it's not like we are not accounting for defenders in pass pro.

Someone correct me if this is not correct, but isn't it true our OL talent acquisition priorities are:
1) Monster Run blocking
2) Beastly Run blocking
3) Road Grader Run blocking
... and oh yeah, you'll need to learn to pass-pro at least half-assed average somewhere along the way, and if you don't, by about the 3rd season or so, we'll bring in a big, athletic rookie to replace you.

And then our OL development coaching effort prioritizes...
1) Monster Run blocking
2) Beastly Run blocking
3) Road Grader Run blocking
4) ...uh let's work on some pass-pro; OK, Russell, get ready do your scrambling thing!

I swear, every game, Wilson looks more and more like Fran Tarkenton in his prime. Same Houdini moves, getting out of unbelievable situations unscathed. Mostly. Except for the numerous times he got flattened vs Houston, that is.

OK, to be fair, Russell Okung was just a flat-out talent, and involved a nod to the passing game. James Carpenter... running game. J.R. Sweezy, total running game, 7th round project. Max Unger, pre-PC/JS. Then there's John Moffitt, who just flat out doesn't sound like a Pete Carroll type of player, even coming out of college. Why the hell did they even draft him? No wonder they gave him away.

John Moffitt pre-draft profile excerpts, From NFL.com:
"lacks the strength and overall athleticism to be effective at the next level against faster and stronger athletes. He loses leverage off the line and struggles to generate a good push at the point of attack. Moffitt also lacks a killer instinct and sometimes looks defeated on film in tough games. "
Strengths: ... Moffitt is tall and well built with adequate speed. Heady player that recognizes stunts and blitzes quickly to thwart the pass rush.
Weaknesses: Lacks explosion off the ball and struggles to make blocks against athletic defensive lineman. Plays too high and is not a powerful drive blocker despite his size. Lunges at times making him susceptible to double moves. Does not look comfortable blocking in a zone scheme. Does not show a mean streak."

So we prioritize run blocking in our OL talent acquisition, and let a serviceable pass pro guy like Moffitt go, so that we can load up on more run-blocking freaks for our zone blocking OL. Maybe by the last year of Wilson's rookie contract we'll have an offensive line that can pass block.

Anyway, back on topic, Bevell is dealing with an OL that is built around run-game zone blocking, and not so much around pass protection. I am excited to see how Bevell will use Harvin as part of this, basically creating opportunities for Harvin to take advantage of run blocking in space and turn 5 yard catches into 50 yarders. It does seem like Bevell could be more creative and flexible with his game plans, but I also think he is working within a "box" defined by Pete that limits what he can initially do. The way it looks to me is that Pete demands that Bevell try to establish the run, and maintain an overall physical identity on offense intended to wear down opponents over the course of the game. Pete says there will be no 3-and-out of all soft pass plays; let's get some smacks in on the LB's and safeties, and maybe a corner or two, and not allow them to just drop into pass coverage and thus miss being repeatedly "contacted" by 300 pounders.

It appears that Pete then gives Bevell much more latitude with in-game adjustments, based on what actually is and isn't working on a particular day against a particular opponent.

 

[TJH]

To be fair, Bevell doesn't deserve all the criticism. If you go back and watch the all-22 of the Texans game for instance, there were a lot of open receivers Wilson just did not see. He's a little spooked right now, and righfuly becaus eof the pressure. He seems to be reverting to locking on to his first read and if he is covered immediately scrambling out.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

I thought the gameplan at Houston was fundamentally sound -- run the ball, try and take out some of the pass rush threat.

Unfortunately, sometimes you just can't stop a guy with 4/5th's of your line being switched.

The big issue for me was failing to switch until the end of the third. They stuck with the conservative approach too long. But, ultimately, they won.

 

[Sarlacc83]

Bevell is always going to be handcuffed by Wilson's height and the limited offensive talent on this team, but he does have room to improve.

What Wilson needs is a monster center and a great TE, no disrespect to Unger and Miller but they need better for Wilson to be at his best.

Dude, what? Unger was an All-Pro last year. What else do you want?