Another negative Pete Carroll thread

[toffee]

I like to think Pete will one day go into Canton, that said, I think of of Pete's weaknesses as a head coach would be his inability to identify, hire, and keep good coaches. Following was Bill Walsh's coaching tree, most coaches worked directly under him became head coaches in the league and even carried teams into super bowls, and won too. Pete hasn't been able to duplicate that, with Quinn as an exception. Either Pete didn't have eyes for great coaching talent, or his insecurity prevented him to hire them, or those folks preferred not to coach under Pete.

Our coaching staff has been mediocre at best, especially in recent seasons, some good/great players experienced regression the longer they stayed in Seattle. That's coaching, isn't it?

 

[rjdriver]

Yeah, Walsh is the Abraham of coaches.

This is the year it will be different for Pete, the slew of new coordinators he'll have to hire to deflect accountability will be outstanding to be sure.

Plus, who wouldn't want to come here? Everyone loves playing for a coach who handcuffs you into a "just keep it close for 50 minutes, then try to win" offense and who is willing to show you the exit and "reset", when for some reason, that strategy doesn't pan out.

 

[Grahamhawker]

To be fair, I think the things that made Pete a great coach are mostly things that can't really be 'taught' or even transferred to different personalities in different situations. Comparing his tree to that of an offensive innovator and 'genius' system-creator like Walsh seems destined for obvious failure.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Its apparent, going back to his time as USC, that Pete hires and keeps coordinators based on criteria far different than most HCs (or at least the priorities are very different).

Loyalty and obedience seem to be more prized than expertise or ability.

In the past, it worked because Pete was so good at things that most coaches and even GMs struggle with - it offset. That does not seem to be the case now so these weaknesses are more glaring.


Nothing is new about Pete tending to keep terrible OCs and DCs too long.

What might change is that now the picture is emerging that maybe those DCs and OCs were not so terrible, as they were hamstrung by Pete demanding things that made it impossible for them to independently deliver.

 

[jammerhawk]

Prove it Twisted, this nonsense that expertise or ability is irrelevant to Carroll. This is yet another unfounded attack without any provable basis in fact save for the inability of the team to play acceptable D, and the O is inconsistent, again. All of course created by the great evil, Carroll.

This is yet another Pete is God thread where the coordinators are irrelevant, and only Pete makes every decision on every matter rendering those on his coaching staff mere puppets who really do nothing. I'm not seeing how that could be possible or reasonable in terms of the time needed to truly do everything. There is no doubt you want Carroll gone and I understand the sensible arguments to have that happen as significant change seems to be needed but these fallacious arguments are just that, fallacious.

 

[Wheetie]

Its apparent, going back to his time as USC, that Pete hires and keeps coordinators based on criteria far different than most HCs (or at least the priorities are very different).

Loyalty and obedience seem to be more prized than expertise or ability.

In the past, it worked because Pete was so good at things that most coaches and even GMs struggle with - it offset. That does not seem to be the case now so these weaknesses are more glaring.


Nothing is new about Pete tending to keep terrible OCs and DCs too long.

What might change is that now the picture is emerging that maybe those DCs and OCs were not so terrible, as they were hamstrung by Pete demanding things that made it impossible for them to independently deliver.

Nailed it.

 

[Wheetie]

Prove it Twisted, this nonsense that expertise or ability is irrelevant to Carroll. This is yet another unfounded attack without any provable basis in fact save for the inability of the team to play acceptable D, and the O is inconsistent, again. All of course created by the great evil, Carroll.

This is yet another Pete is God thread where the coordinators are irrelevant, and only Pete makes every decision on every matter rendering those on his coaching staff mere puppets who really do nothing. I'm not seeing how that could be possible or reasonable in terms of the time needed to truly do everything. There is no doubt you want Carroll gone and I understand the sensible arguments to have that happen as significant change seems to be needed but these fallacious arguments are just that, fallacious.

How 'bout the Offenses and Defenses have looked almost the same under different Coordinators's? How 'bout the failures of Hurtt were the same as Norton's? How 'bout the soft zone defense has been the increasingly failed scheme of choice year after year for the past several years? How 'bout Carroll admitting in his book he needs to have absolute control, (or something to that effect...I heard it's in his book). Evidence is pretty clear for anyone willing to acknowledge it.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Pete is very much in the Walsh philosophy of keeping his coaching hires promoting from within.

Which is not unique to Pete, most long tenured successful coaches do this. Belichick, Old Shanahan, Andy Reid, etc. Most hired and promoted from within.

It's a way to keep philosophical and scheme continuity. Pete's problem is that it's no longer leading to success. Or at least not sustained high levels of success.

Which is why once you've exhausted your coaching tree and refuse to change in order to adapt and change? Yeah man, that means it's time to hang up the Double Bubble and Nike Monarchs.

 

[jammerhawk]

Maybe so Sarg., but the nonsense that is attributed to PC as being in charge of everything so there is no air to breath around him and it is him alone that has screwed everything up is just that, nonsense.

 

[Palmegranite]

What we have here is the classic Tom Coughlin paradox. Win Superbowls, followed by the inevitable decline and back to back 6-10 seasons.

The last few years of his tenure, everyone was on tenterhooks, not wanting to disrespect the HOF coach. Not wanting to push him out.

Perhaps Seattle has entered this phase with Pete. But what do I know. Ol' Pete may still have the energy, the experience, to make another run.

I just pray that I'm in that good of health at Pete's age.

 

[toffee]

Yeah, Walsh is the Abraham of coaches.

I might have shared with this group that I was an ex-neighbor of George Seifert, while George didn't like to talk football with us. Some neighbors did talk to him and share results with the rest of us, so following are all heresy:

1. Bill really really care about his coaching tree.
2. Bill was a bit of a control freak, as he dictate no only the offense stuff, but all defense.
3. Bill wouldn't allow his coaches to talk with media, everything came from him.

All sounded like working under Bill wasn't all fun, but he did identified a bunch of capable guys, including our own Mike Holmgren, a super bowl winner.

In Pete's case, he hasn't picked any future super bowl winning coaches on his staff list.

 

[Maelstrom787]

It's looking up a little bit these days. Canales is a Pete lifer who has done extremely well already, his son Brennan is doing great as Jedd Fisch's OC in Arizona, and Dan Quinn is a stud.

Its not a great coaching tree, but there are some little sprouts here and there that are starting to develop.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Maybe so Sarg., but the nonsense that is attributed to PC as being in charge of everything so there is no air to breath around him and it is him alone that has screwed everything up is just that, nonsense.

How is it an unfounded attack?

I was very complementary of Pete in his ability to do things that most coaches & even GMs struggle with. But ask any USC fan about some of his coordinators.

This was literally a weakness people were concerned about when he got here. Its just more glaring now that Pete isn't offsetting it.

 

[ZagHawk]

What we have here is the classic Tom Coughlin paradox. Win Superbowls, followed by the inevitable decline and back to back 6-10 seasons.

This. Superbowl wins buy you time, and for those who are thinking people are being impatient...how many superbowls was under Belichick's reign and this is arguably his second to last year as well..

 

[jammerhawk]

It's clear we disagree but I doubt seriously the comment that loyalty and obedience are more important to PC than expertise or ability.

He's quick to can guys who don't have any expertise or ability. To me Hurrt who was thought to have some understanding of the 3-4 scheme desired to be implemented and now after two seasons of dismal failure upon dismal failure I suspect Hurrt is canned too. The Oline with some improvement may just save the Waldron's job.

 

[hinton]

It's looking up a little bit these days. Canales is a Pete lifer who has done extremely well already, his son Brennan is doing great as Jedd Fisch's OC in Arizona, and Dan Quinn is a stud.

Its not a great coaching tree, but there are some little sprouts here and there that are starting to develop.

I wouldn't be surprised if Shotty gets a HC shot sometime soon... but I'm not sure I'd put him necessarily under the 'Peter Carroll Coaching Tree' any more than simply an OC who had a few seasons under Pete. Could be argued either way.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

I wouldn't be surprised if Shotty gets a HC shot sometime soon... but I'm not sure I'd put him necessarily under the 'Peter Carroll Coaching Tree' any more than simply an OC who had a few seasons under Pete. Could be argued either way.

Agreed.

Schotty has bounced around and wasn’t strictly a Carroll protégé. He’s been an OC in the league on a few teams and had a go here. To claim him as a Pete disciple would be disingenuous.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

Dan Quinn is a stud.

Dan Quinn is an adequate coach who benefited from a stacked Seattle defense in the LOB while in Seattle.

His time in Atlanta is suspect because after Kyle Shannahan left his team, especially his offensive, fell apart and his defenses were never world breakers.

In Dallas he has arguably one of the best defensive players in the league in Micah Parsons, he’d elevate any DC he had. Not to mention when Dallas went up again more stout teams, his defense did nothing.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Dan Quinn is an adequate coach who benefited from a stacked Seattle defense in the LOB while in Seattle.

His time in Atlanta is suspect because after Kyle Shannahan left his team, especially his offensive, fell apart and his defenses were never world breakers.

In Dallas he has arguably one of the best defensive players in the league in Micah Parsons, he’d elevate any DC he had. Not to mention when Dallas went up again more stout teams, his defense did nothing.

Dan Quinn has never not been a wonderful coordinator, and Micah had some questions coming out. Not sure he would've instantly put it together elsewhere like he did with Quinn.

I think our bar for success might be a tad bit high if we're negging guys like Quinn for not being the undeniable best in the world. He's a worthy part of any tree, and better than quite a few names on that Walsh tree.

For me, any coach who can go out and coach multiple good to great defenses, churning them out yearly while also updating his scheme, is a stud. He did make a Super Bowl. Most head coaches never do, and he did right away, even if it did end in a hurtful fashion. Atlanta hasn't sniffed much of any success without him. Hard org to win with.

 

[Ozzy]

Maybe so Sarg., but the nonsense that is attributed to PC as being in charge of everything so there is no air to breath around him and it is him alone that has screwed everything up is just that, nonsense.

I would argue the alternative that you seem to think is happening is just as absurd. You paint this picture of Pete as almost helpless. He sees the results of the defense dating back multiple years now but he never steps in and just “ah shucks” it after every game, week after week and now year after year. So he sees week after week his team failing at the tune of the worst defense in football and yet he never steps in, he’s not in the planning process, doesn’t hear a single thing in the headset and poor Pete is just at the mercy of not one but multiple bad DC’s? I think both extremes seems flawed and biased towards whether or not you love Pete.

And again I’m not being snarky and I think some of your argument has merit for sure. I guess I just don’t understand the argument that tries to defense Pete but almost unknowingly paints a worse picture of Pete who appears powerless and helpless in it all if that makes sense?