A thought about " Culture "

[Ozzy]

If you evaluate an organization's culture based on free agency signings, you may not understand organizational culture or what it is. Culture is how you schedule your meetings, how you talk to your employees, how the hierarchy is structured, how conflicts are resolved, how discipline is levied, how beliefs and values are expressed and maintained throughout every level, etc., etc., etc. The product on the field is a product of that culture. And how appealing your team is to people on the outside is almost entirely irrelevant in a market.

I know many of you don't think Pete was a good coach. That's fine. But he helped build one of the NFL's most consistent and respectable organizations over the past decade and a half. If you think that's common, that it can be easily replicated, that the rest of the league has caught up, more power to you.

I’m not sure a single person said Pete isn’t or wasn’t ever a good coach. Thinking it’s time to move on (which apparently the league agrees with) isn’t married to the idea that he sucks as a coach, not sure why the argument keeps getting framed this way

 

[knownone]

I’m not sure a single person said Pete isn’t or wasn’t ever a good coach. Thinking it’s time to move on (which apparently the league agrees with) isn’t married to the idea that he sucks as a coach, not sure why the argument keeps getting framed this way

A quick look at the first page has you saying: "I think its overstated because the pro Pete crowd has a tough time selling Pete as an X&O's guy." What are the implications of a coach not being an "X&O's guy"? I've seen the notion that Pete was a curmudgeon stuck in his ways for years and that his coaching was holding the team back. Whether you like it or not, the subtext is that Pete is not a good coach, at least to some degree.

Here's a question: If Pete's culture is overstated and he's not an X&O guy. What exactly kept the Seahawks winning all of these years?

 

[Ozzy]

A quick look at the first page has you saying: "I think its overstated because the pro Pete crowd has a tough time selling Pete as an X&O's guy." What are the implications of a coach not being an "X&O's guy"? I've seen the notion that Pete was a curmudgeon stuck in his ways for years and that his coaching was holding the team back. Whether you like it or not, the subtext is that Pete is not a good coach, at least to some degree.

Here's a question: If Pete's culture is overstated and he's not an X&O guy. What exactly kept the Seahawks winning all of these years?

I haven’t heard anyone around the league refer to him as a band o’s savant and this included former players who have said that’s not his strength. There are dozens of factors that go into being a good coach and Pete was elite in multiple areas obviously.

Also culture……I don’t think it was always the way it appears to be the last couple of years and again former players like KJ have said the same thing so discounting it as crazy talk isn’t fair. The culture pre 2020 or so was incredible. Players played hard, tackled well, bought into the program etc. the past couple of years? There was signs that the messaging wasn’t butting its mark like it did early on. Does that mean Pete was a bad coach? No it means after 24 years and being 73 years old it got a little stale and it seemed like he lost his edge in doing what he is so good at.

Pete is an all time great HOF coach and it was time to move on. Both can be true.

 

[knownone]

I haven’t heard anyone around the league refer to him as a band o’s savant and this included former players who have said that’s not his strength. There are dozens of factors that go into being a good coach and Pete was elite in multiple areas obviously.

Also culture……I don’t think it was always the way it appears to be the last couple of years and again former players like KJ have said the same thing so discounting it as crazy talk isn’t fair. The culture pre 2020 or so was incredible. Players played hard, tackled well, bought into the program etc. the past couple of years? There was signs that the messaging wasn’t butting its mark like it did early on. Does that mean Pete was a bad coach? No it means after 24 years and being 73 years old it got a little stale and it seemed like he lost his edge in doing what he is so good at.

Pete is an all time great HOF coach and it was time to move on. Both can be true.

Okay? If not culture and X&Os, what are the multiple areas he was elite in?

 

[Ozzy]

Okay? If not culture and X&Os, what are the multiple areas he was elite in?

He was elite in culture as I stated. I would argue early on his defensive stuff was incredible as the league copied much of it. He was great at getting players to buy in and play hard. Often we were less talented but still won double digit games, he created an environment where Russell Wilson got a shot and was one of the best in the league for a decade. He taught technique that other teams taped and used themselves.

 

[pmedic920]

Yes the fact that Willson publicly stated his affection for Pete.

Many prior players have stated their unhappiness with some things Pete did. That does not negate this conversation about culture. You don't win SB's and college championships during a 30 year elite level of success in any league without the ability to build a great culture.

Some of you guys hate Pete so much you can't even see straight. Let it go dude.

I think he was talking about the LUKE Wilson interviews.

Edit: I also think his take on what Luke was saying is a bit askew. Although Luke did mention there were things that he (and others) didn’t like, I don’t believe he said or meant the entire “culture”.

 

[knownone]

He was elite in culture as I stated. I would argue early on his defensive stuff was incredible as the league copied much of it. He was great at getting players to buy in and play hard. Often we were less talented but still won double digit games, he created an environment where Russell Wilson got a shot and was one of the best in the league for a decade. He taught technique that other teams taped and used themselves.

Everything you've stated here, in my opinion, is culture. And I understand that you are saying it was elite. But the Seahawks are 37-30 since 2020, so if it's no longer what it used to be, as you've stated, it's unclear to me what you think is the driving force behind the team's sustained success.

Again, to elaborate on my above point. It's not that I believe Pete is irreplaceable. My point is that Seattle is at an inflection point with a great deal of uncertainty. And it seems to me that people are undervaluing the stability Pete brought to the organization. That doesn't mean we won't find an adequate replacement or that I think people are crazy for wanting to move on.

 

[CalgaryFan05]

I would just like to focus on the objective, observable facts instead of the subjective, ethereal musings we have about PC and Seahawks culture.

I have a few questions for those who believe PC was a great influencer of Seahawks culture. I'll give my answers and invite your counter argument.

1. I have often heard that players place the Seahawks at or near the top of their preferred employment choices. In the past ten years, how many blue-chip or top-tier Free Agents have come to the Seahawks? How many mid-tier FAs have signed at below-market compensation? How many replacement-level players have the Seahawks overpaid for? How many Seahawks FAs have re-signed here and given a 'hometown discount'? (The Seahawks have been unable to sign any top FAs. They have not brought in any above average players at a reasonable price. They have consistently overpaid for underperforming players. They have consistently overpaid their own FAs.)

2. Have the Seahawks found the correct balance between an individual-focused and a team-focused culture in terms of accountability and discipline? (I can't believe this is even a question. This is not a team culture we are seeing. The Seahawks are a collection of individuals that take the field and play as 11 guys instead of 1 team. There is no communication, no accountability, and no discipline. 'YOU BE YOU' has been taken to the extreme and the entire concept of TEAM (singular) has been pushed aside.)

2a. Does PC rely on the locker room to provide accountability, and what is his plan for when it is not working? (On his podcast, KJ has mentioned several times that whenever there was an issue with a player PC would go to one of his locker room leaders and ask him to confront the problem child and resolve it. Whenever the media asks PC a question he doesn't like he becomes a passive-aggressive snark master. When PC is let go, he throws shade at the lesser 'non-football' mere mortals who shouldn't be deciding his tenure. He oozes sarcasm when discussing JS's new responsibilities with "You asked for it. Good Luck!" PC is not good with confrontation. PC has lots of interpersonal skills. Constructive confrontation is not one of them, IMO. Sometimes peer accountability fails and top-down confrontation is required. PC has no effective strategy when this is the case.)

2b. Do you consider the Seahawks to be a disciplined team? (See 2a. The Seahawks have become one of the most undisciplined teams in the NFL. Penalties and missed assignments are the norm. Lack of effort has become common. Flat and lifeless is the product we now expect to see for most games.)

3. How many players do you see that unmistakably "leave it all on the field" or "give 100% on every play"? (DK. Spoon. Bobby. Charbs. ??? 2/11 on Defense and 2/11 on Offense isn't a good sign that the Seahawks players are motivated to play to their potential.)

4. What great coaching hires has PC made? How many of our coaches have been poached by other teams? (I have pages I could write here. I'll just stick with NONE.)

I have plenty to say about 'Seahawks Culture' but I'll just say it Ain't All That.

THIS.



Pete was a player's coach. Been one of those myself. Been burned for it.

Culture turned to coddling, and I've posted that before.

Looking forward to the new era - potentially.

 

[renofox]

He was elite in culture as I stated. I would argue early on his defensive stuff was incredible as the league copied much of it. He was great at getting players to buy in and play hard. Often we were less talented but still won double digit games, he created an environment where Russell Wilson got a shot and was one of the best in the league for a decade. He taught technique that other teams taped and used themselves.

This. PC was an innovator in regards to roster building and gameplanning, and excellent at developing players and implementing his desired culture. He was a top-3 HC for years.

Then he lost the roster building magic. Then he lost the innovative edge. Because of that the gameplanning soon suffered. Lately, the Seahawks have a bunch of players regressing instead of progressing. I won't even begin to address the uncorrected culture issues which lead to players half-assing it.

PC was a magnificent coach.

PC is still a good coach.

The Seahawks don't want a good coach. They want what PC was 10 years ago - a great coach.

 

[Ozzy]

Everything you've stated here, in my opinion, is culture. And I understand that you are saying it was elite. But the Seahawks are 37-30 since 2020, so if it's no longer what it used to be, as you've stated, it's unclear to me what you think is the driving force behind the team's sustained success.

Again, to elaborate on my above point. It's not that I believe Pete is irreplaceable. My point is that Seattle is at an inflection point with a great deal of uncertainty. And it seems to me that people are undervaluing the stability Pete brought to the organization. That doesn't mean we won't find an adequate replacement or that I think people are crazy for wanting to move on.

I think was was still a good coach. But Seattle had to be looking at this and thinking it’s gone stagnant and possibly regressing even though we’ve given him a ton of resources in an area he’s known for, defense. I would also guess his plan to fix it wasn’t convincing and probably revolved around what he said to Brock and Salk about just coaching it harder were close. That probably wasn’t good enough for them.

Also I don’t want to offend anyone because I know we have a lot of older fans who are great posters but if it’s stagnant and you know you have a couple of years at best because of his age it’s best to move on now and start the process sooner with some good young talent, at least I’m guessing that was their thought process.

Like you said they were a slightly better than .500 team with a coach near the end of the road. Unless someone thinks we really were going to take a massive jump next year then moving on from Pete makes a ton of sense and at worse it’s just a year or two early. They haven’t been winning playoff games in years.

Culture, I tried to make it clear and maybe it’s my fault with how I worded it, Pete was a master in building a culture but two things: it wasn’t the same in 2023 as it was in 2013 and it just didn’t appear to have the same results with the players it did a decade earlier. Also my other argument was it isn’t, at least in the current NFL, not as rare as it was a decade ago. A lot of these young coaches are doing similar stuff around the league which is awesome to see. When you lose that advantage you have to make it up somehow and I think it’s commendable the Seahawks took a chance and went for it.

 

[Ozzy]

This. PC was an innovator in regards to roster building and gameplanning, and excellent at developing players and implementing his desired culture. He was a top-3 HC for years.

Then he lost the roster building magic. Then he lost the innovative edge. Because of that the gameplanning soon suffered. Lately, the Seahawks have a bunch of players regressing instead of progressing. I won't even begin to address the uncorrected culture issues which lead to players half-assing it.

PC was a magnificent coach.

PC is still a good coach.

The Seahawks don't want a good coach. They want what PC was 10 years ago - a great coach.

And they may fail trying but as a fan I’m excited that they’re going for it. A lot of teams operate like the Vikings and have settled on good forever. I want a shot at great just like they did when they hired Pete.

 

[Jville]

I will speak about 'culture' from recent experience... Starting out with, I was raised in the 60s/70s in lower-working-class circumstances and all that entailed. Poverty, hard work, little to no reward, little to no chance of college (and getting out of that environment), etc. No regard whatsoever for 'culture' except the culture of 'suck it up, buttercup' and 'nobody gives a shit about your widdle feelings'.

I was sent from Puget Sound Naval Shipyard last fall to Norfolk Naval Shipyard in VA for 4 months starting in the middle of last August. When I got there, I was immediately struck by the toxic work environment and the sheer amount of errors being made by everyone there - engineers, shop workers, quality inspectors, project supervisors, the whole gang. It's no wonder all their projects are over budget, behind schedule, and often needing rework after the ship goes back to sea. Huge, unsustainable personnel turnover with people talking openly about wanting out and what jobs they were applying for elsewhere. Everyone aspiring to just barely make the minimum requirements of whatever they're doing. And, I was struck by the negative culture of the place. I guarantee most everyone goes home after work and drinks too much just to numb themselves after the day. What was kinda telling was how many people, both engineers like me and shop workers, who had ever temporarily been assigned to Puget wished their work place was like ours.

I tried to work there the same way I work here, and to treat the shop workers like we do instead of like they do, and I spent a great deal of my time just talking about how I thought they could get 'more like us'. You know, just being an example. (As I like to say, if your life can't be a shining example at least let it be a terrible warning. In this case I was trying for the former...) Before I left I was hit up by managers and department heads about my experience there, and I talked frankly (and without regard to the politics of the place) about their culture and what I call 'lack of ownership' of the equipment and processes.

Believe me, culture can make a huge difference to the product of your work. I don't see why it would be any less true for a football team than it is for a ship maintenance facility.

That's certainly has been borne out with the ongoing cultural collapse of the Boeing Company. Another week ... another story of parts failure with no end in sight.

And to think that Boeing once set the world wide cultural standard for quality and safety.

 

[Fade]

Pete staffs left a lot to be desired, undoing all of the good he brought to the table.

His blind-spots could've been easily covered had he been willing to go BIG TIME at the coordinator positions with Paul Allen money year after year if they were to get hired away, easily achievable.

But, no! Ken Norton & Clint Hurtt for 6 seasons, not firing Bevell after 49, etc. Loyalty to coaches that dragged the team down.

Always compete! (Expect with the coaching staff…) A great hypocrisy.

By year 3 of Norton I made the evaluation that Pete was no longer worth it, with the these crony coordinators attached at his hip. It took the Seahawks 3 more years to arrive at the same conclusion. It seems like the Seahawks were willing to continue with Carroll if he would fire Hurtt and look to upgrade the staff, but he disagreed. So Jody whipped it out and showed Pete who's boss!

The future is bright!

 

[knownone]

I think was was still a good coach. But Seattle had to be looking at this and thinking it’s gone stagnant and possibly regressing even though we’ve given him a ton of resources in an area he’s known for, defense. I would also guess his plan to fix it wasn’t convincing and probably revolved around what he said to Brock and Salk about just coaching it harder were close. That probably wasn’t good enough for them.

Also I don’t want to offend anyone because I know we have a lot of older fans who are great posters but if it’s stagnant and you know you have a couple of years at best because of his age it’s best to move on now and start the process sooner with some good young talent, at least I’m guessing that was their thought process.

Like you said they were a slightly better than .500 team with a coach near the end of the road. Unless someone thinks we really were going to take a massive jump next year then moving on from Pete makes a ton of sense and at worse it’s just a year or two early. They haven’t been winning playoff games in years.

Culture, I tried to make it clear and maybe it’s my fault with how I worded it, Pete was a master in building a culture but two things: it wasn’t the same in 2023 as it was in 2013 and it just didn’t appear to have the same results with the players it did a decade earlier. Also my other argument was it isn’t, at least in the current NFL, not as rare as it was a decade ago. A lot of these young coaches are doing similar stuff around the league which is awesome to see. When you lose that advantage you have to make it up somehow and I think it’s commendable the Seahawks took a chance and went for it.

Well, if you think Pete is a good coach, then I'm not sure what your problem is with my initial post. My comment was directly aimed at people who A) don't think Pete's a good coach and/or B) think his culture is easily replaceable. You took issue with that but evidently don't hold those positions.

Further, I don't share your assessment of the situation. From my vantage point, there is zero reason to believe the Seahawks couldn't make a run with Pete next season. I don't think Pete's culture has changed. Maybe it is not as compatible with the new generation. Who knows. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: I don't have any issue with them moving on from Pete. My problem is with fans who take what Pete built for granted. If that's not you, what's the problem?

 

[Ozzy]

Well, if you think Pete is a good coach, then I'm not sure what your problem is with my initial post. My comment was directly aimed at people who A) don't think Pete's a good coach and/or B) think his culture is easily replaceable. You took issue with that but evidently don't hold those positions.

Further, I don't share your assessment of the situation. From my vantage point, there is zero reason to believe the Seahawks couldn't make a run with Pete next season. I don't think Pete's culture has changed. Maybe it is not as compatible with the new generation. Who knows. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: I don't have any issue with them moving on from Pete. My problem is with fans who take what Pete built for granted. If that's not you, what's the problem?

There is no problem, we’re discussing football and sharing ideas. Not everything is combative. You said many in here don’t think Pete was a good coach. I responded by saying I don’t think that’s really the sentiment of most people and explained why.

 

[Ozzy]

Well, if you think Pete is a good coach, then I'm not sure what your problem is with my initial post. My comment was directly aimed at people who A) don't think Pete's a good coach and/or B) think his culture is easily replaceable. You took issue with that but evidently don't hold those positions.

Further, I don't share your assessment of the situation. From my vantage point, there is zero reason to believe the Seahawks couldn't make a run with Pete next season. I don't think Pete's culture has changed. Maybe it is not as compatible with the new generation. Who knows. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: I don't have any issue with them moving on from Pete. My problem is with fans who take what Pete built for granted. If that's not you, what's the problem?

It’s it’s perfectly fine to think next year we make a big leap. I don’t think we do with no changes on the defensive side of the ball and Pete saying he just needs to coach it harder. But I get why people disagree.

 

[knownone]

There is no problem, we’re discussing football and sharing ideas. Not everything is combative. You said many in here don’t think Pete was a good coach. I responded by saying I don’t think that’s really the sentiment of most people and explained why.

Okay. So, the problem/issue was me saying that many people don't think Pete is a good coach. Got it.

 

[Ozzy]

Okay. So, the problem/issue was me saying that many people don't think Pete is a good coach. Got it.

It’s not a problem I just disagreed just like you respond to something I say when you disagree. I made the comment that I think many Quinn supporters were also Pete supporters and I found that interesting. I believe you disagreed with that and responded. If that wasn’t you there are other examples Maybe I’m misreading you here but I fail to understand why you have a problem with me responding to your post? Again if I’m misreading this apologies

 

[bigcc]

M

Okay. So, the problem/issue was me saying that many people don't think Pete is a good coach. Got it.

"Many people" don't know what they're talking about.

He's had 4 losing seasons in 27 years as a head coach.

His very first with the jets, his first two with us (still won a playoff game), and 2021

2 nattys and a superbowl

I wasn't a fan of moving on but I get it, but that being said anyone who thinks he wasn't a "good coach" doesn't have the slightest clue what they're talking about.

 

[knownone]

It’s not a problem I just disagreed just like you respond to something I say when you disagree. I made the comment that I think many Quinn supporters were also Pete supporters and I found that interesting. I believe you disagreed with that and responded. If that wasn’t you there are other examples Maybe I’m misreading you here but I fail to understand why you have a problem with me responding to your post? Again if I’m misreading this apologies

Why would I have a problem with you responding to it? I don't view these interactions as the slightest bit combative. So when you say "not everything is combative," think about what you are implying—that I believe everything is combative. Really? Okay. Stop pretending you can read minds.

I wasn't using problems or issues as a form of animosity. I utilized them in terms of the discussion. I've been trying to pinpoint your position (maybe a better word?) and how it contrasts with mine. Again, you started the conversation by telling me you don't think a single person said Pete's a bad coach, which is hyperbole, so I tried to zero in on your prior comments to provide a concrete example of what I meant by the term "bad." But man, you go off on so many tangents with implicit assumptions—about what I believe—we lost that thread. And as we untied those knots and got to the core of your position, you made things weirdly personal by reading into my words rather than reading them.