The one position we've never had a "star" at.

[rcaido]

Graham would of been much better if not for the play calls and Wilson running all over the field . They used him poorly imho .

Terrible play calling and ask a non blocking TE to block most of the time. The final year we had him, we finally decided to use him as a redzone threat, he led the NFL w/ 10 TDs. Who would have thunk that 6'7 basketball player can use his size for an advantage. Graham was unstoppable one on one at the endzone within 5 yards(7tds). Just when we finally got a weapon we ended up not re-signing him. Played w/ Packers which he didn't do that great either. He did have his revenge catch on us in that playoff game. Clearly wasn't a 1st down but oh well.

Seahawks should start utilizing the same thing w/ DK.

 

[keasley45]

Stats are saying the years with Graham were about even for TE targets and receptions compared to last season. *shrug*

Last year, TE's caught 111 passes. Fant catching 50

2017 Grahams last year, TE's accounted for 84 catches, Graham with 57
*Notable - those 57 catches came on 98 targets. That has to be some kind of recored low for catch % for that number of catches.

Edit - to be fair, its actually not a bad %.

2016 - 85, Graham with 65

2015 - 88, Graham with 48

by my count, thats a 30% increase in TE utilization for a QB playing his ffirst meanaingful ball in a very long time.

Our last QB on his new team - 72 catches by TE's for the year.

from another perspective, only 4 teams in the league targeted TEs more than seattle last year. We'd never done that ... never even came close, but for the year we threw 40% airballs to Graham.

 

[keasley45]

Terrible play calling and ask a non blocking TE to block most of the time. The final year we had him, we finally decided to use him as a redzone threat, he led the NFL w/ 10 TDs. Who would have thunk that 6'7 basketball player can use his size for an advantage. Graham was unstoppable one on one at the endzone within 5 yards(7tds). Just when we finally got a weapon we ended up not re-signing him. Played w/ Packers which he didn't do that great either. He did have his revenge catch on us in that playoff game. Clearly wasn't a 1st down but oh well.

Seahawks should start utilizing the same thing w/ DK.

In 2017 he was targeted 97 times and only caught 57 balls. Utilization doesn't point to a guy who wasn't involved enough.

He was asked to block, but those blocks were often chip and release type of blocks, the same kind of chip and release blocks Fant, Park and Diss are asked to do and commonplace in the NFL. So sure he wasnt split out or in the slot the way he was in NO, but its not like he was a blocking TE either.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

QB.

That's just silly

 

[SeAhAwKeR4life]

That's just silly

I agree. Krieg, Hasselbeck and Wilson all were stars. Zorn was damn good, and had he had a good team behind him, who knows?

Warren Moon was at the end when he played with us, but he was no joke either.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

I agree. Krieg, Hasselbeck and Wilson all were stars. Zorn was damn good, and had he had a good team behind him, who knows?

Warren Moon was at the end when he played with us, but he was no joke either.

That's even sillier.

 

[SeAhAwKeR4life]

That's even sillier.

Seriously? Look at the numbers those guys put up; there are hall of famers with lesser stats. I believe Hasselbeck, Wilson and Krieg are all in the top 40 stats wise all time.

We've had good quarterbacking, our other weaknesses and being from South Alaska are all that has limited the Seahawks.

I just checked, all three of those guys are in the top 30 for passing yards all time.

 

[keasley45]

Seriously? Look at the numbers those guys put up; there are hall of famers with lesser stats. I believe Hasselbeck, Wilson and Krieg are all in the top 40 stats wise all time.

We've had good quarterbacking, our other weaknesses and being from South Alaska are all that has limited the Seahawks.

I just checked, all three of those guys are in the top 30 for passing yards all time.

Krieg is top 25 in a few and was top 10 in many when he hung-em up.

 

[rcaido]

Last year, TE's caught 111 passes. Fant catching 50

2017 Grahams last year, TE's accounted for 84 catches, Graham with 57
*Notable - those 57 catches came on 98 targets. That has to be some kind of recored low for catch % for that number of catches.

Edit - to be fair, its actually not a bad %.

2016 - 85, Graham with 65

2015 - 88, Graham with 48

by my count, thats a 30% increase in TE utilization for a QB playing his ffirst meanaingful ball in a very long time.

Our last QB on his new team - 72 catches by TE's for the year.

from another perspective, only 4 teams in the league targeted TEs more than seattle last year. We'd never done that ... never even came close, but for the year we threw 40% airballs to Graham.

We never done that? Are you comparing the whole TE 2022 core to just Graham? Not understanding what you mean.

Seahawks TE Targets
2016- Targeted 134 1,260yrds 10Tds
2017- Targeted 142 910yrds 15 Tds

2022- Targeted 136 1,126yrds 10 Tds in a 17 game season

 

[keasley45]

We never done that? Are you comparing the whole TE 2022 core to just Graham? Not understanding what you mean.

Seahawks TE Targets
2016- Targeted 134 1,260yrds 10Tds
2017- Targeted 142 910yrds 15 Tds

2022- Targeted 136 1,126yrds 10 Tds in a 17 game season

Both,

was responding to 2 different posts. i was looking at catches and then commenting on the myth that Graham was used as a 'blocking' TE. He saw almost 100 targets but had only 66 catches. He was used to block more his first year, but less so after.

And the TE group at its peak under Russ never caught 111 balls. The best output in the Graham years was 84. Fewer catches *far fewer*
Last year:

50 catches and 63 targets for Fant
34 catches and 38 targets for Diss
25 catches and 34 targets for Park
1 catch on 1 target for Marbery

We are FAR better utilizing the TE than we have been.

I hear you on the 17 game season, but when you look at how much the defense gave our offense possession over those years - almost a 2.5 minute difference per game average... and multiply that time 16 games, our offense in those years had more opportunity to score in 16 games than the 2022 team did in 17.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

Seriously? Look at the numbers those guys put up; there are hall of famers with lesser stats. I believe Hasselbeck, Wilson and Krieg are all in the top 40 stats wise all time.

We've had good quarterbacking, our other weaknesses and being from South Alaska are all that has limited the Seahawks.

I just checked, all three of those guys are in the top 30 for passing yards all time.

It has nothing to do with who is on your list and you know it. Just because he forced his way out doesn't change the fact that we had an elite qb for 10 years who has better stats than any of those guys, who set rookie record after record, who spent several seasons willing us into the playoffs with an average team around him. He's a pariah to me too but that doesn't mean his records don't count.

What's silliest of it all is the loud contingent of people here, and I am not sure if you were one of them but it was a common theme for almost any story about him, who spent year after year in very, very vocal perpetual apoplexy that he didn't get more recognition from the league and the media that he deserved for how elite he was (even though he did, but that's another topic that hurts too many feelings). You can't be the biggest offseason news story due to a blockbuster trade involving 2 first round picks for someone that isn't (or was but had fallen) if you weren't an elite player. You gotta be at least remotely objective enough to acknowledge even if he turned into a shitheel at the end of his stay.

 

[rcaido]

So

Both,

was responding to 2 different posts. i was looking at catches and then commenting on the myth that Graham was used as a 'blocking' TE. He saw almost 100 targets but had only 66 catches. He was used to block more his first year, but less so after.

And the TE group at its peak under Russ never caught 111 balls. The best output in the Graham years was 84. Fewer catches *far fewer*
Last year:

50 catches and 63 targets for Fant
34 catches and 38 targets for Diss
25 catches and 34 targets for Park
1 catch on 1 target for Marbery

We are FAR better utilizing the TE than we have been.

I hear you on the 17 game season, but when you look at how much the defense gave our offense possession over those years - almost a 2.5 minute difference per game average... and multiply that time 16 games, our offense in those years had more opportunity to score in 16 games than the 2022 team did in 17.

Where are you getting 2.5minutes?

The average time for the 2022 (28:35sec)
2016 (29:47sec) 1min 12 sec
2017 (29:19sec) 43sec

So actually 2022 had more time of possession if you do the math. Also the math adds 94 catches not 84.

Its also silly to just go by catches. What about the other metrics like yards & TDs? Rather have 5 more TD's then 20catches.

 

[BASF]

It has nothing to do with who is on your list and you know it. Just because he forced his way out doesn't change the fact that we had an elite qb for 10 years who has better stats than any of those guys, who set rookie record after record, who spent several seasons willing us into the playoffs with an average team around him. He's a pariah to me too but that doesn't mean his records don't count.

What's silliest of it all is the loud contingent of people here, and I am not sure if you were one of them but it was a common theme for almost any story about him, who spent year after year in very, very vocal perpetual apoplexy that he didn't get more recognition from the league and the media that he deserved for how elite he was (even though he did, but that's another topic that hurts too many feelings). You can't be the biggest offseason news story due to a blockbuster trade involving 2 first round picks for someone that isn't (or was but had fallen) if you weren't an elite player. You gotta be at least remotely objective enough to acknowledge even if he turned into a shitheel at the end of his stay.

I am trying tp figure out if you are arguing that Krieg and Hass were not stars because Wilson was better than them?

 

[keasley45]

It has nothing to do with who is on your list and you know it. Just because he forced his way out doesn't change the fact that we had an elite qb for 10 years who has better stats than any of those guys, who set rookie record after record, who spent several seasons willing us into the playoffs with an average team around him. He's a pariah to me too but that doesn't mean his records don't count.

What's silliest of it all is the loud contingent of people here, and I am not sure if you were one of them but it was a common theme for almost any story about him, who spent year after year in very, very vocal perpetual apoplexy that he didn't get more recognition from the league and the media that he deserved for how elite he was (even though he did, but that's another topic that hurts too many feelings). You can't be the biggest offseason news story due to a blockbuster trade involving 2 first round picks for someone that isn't (or was but had fallen) if you weren't an elite player. You gotta be at least remotely objective enough to acknowledge even if he turned into a shitheel at the end of his stay.

With an inferior team? Ok

 

[keasley45]

I am trying tp figure out if you are arguing that Krieg and Hass were not stars because Wilson was better than them?

Krieg and Hass were both stars. For anyone to say otherwise is a stretch.

Neither had the benefit of a coach who was either able to assemble the all around talent that Pete did, or in themselves the individual talent to extend plays and turn a traditional nfl playbook into their own personal playground. You could judge both Krieg and Hass as superior qbs from an Xs and Os perspective. But you have to give Russ the nod for being so gifted a passer that he could just get the ball to the wr when it was all said and done and legs to wear out coverage to the point someone broke open.

But I doubt Russ would be able to do what he did for aby other team Tham Seattle or for any other coach.

Krieg did it for almost 20 years for multiple teams and never an offensive minded coach or brilliant coordinator to get him to excel beyond his own gifts. He had solid and sometimes spectacular seasons almost everywhere he went. Didn't matter the system, his teammates or whether he was starting or coming off the bench.

The word on him was he was always good enough to beat out whoever was in front of him, but would always play bad enough to warrant not keeping around.

His biggest triumph might have been in KC when he came off the bench late in the afc championship game to relieve Jor Montana in game in which Joe played poorly. Krieg had the Chiefs make a game of it late but they ran out of time.

But yeah, if we are going to say a qb who coukdnt read defenses but excelled in a system catered tiward him was great, then we can surely say a guy like Kreig who seemed to work his way into the QB 1 slot wherever he went was as well. Same for Hass, who for a few years was slinging it with the best of them in the NFC.

 

[Lagartixa]

It has nothing to do with who is on your list and you know it. Just because he forced his way out doesn't change the fact that we had an elite qb for 10 years who has better stats than any of those guys, who set rookie record after record, who spent several seasons willing us into the playoffs with an average team around him. He's a pariah to me too but that doesn't mean his records don't count.

So what happened to that "elite" QB's supposed magic ability to "will" a team to the playoffs last season? He went to a team that was stronger than the Seahawks, with a much-better defense, a better offensive line, and better "weapons," a team where he himself said he wanted to go play because he "wouldn't have to carry" it. And what happened? He willed that stronger-than-the-Seahawks team to the third-worst record in its conference, fifth-worst in the NFL.

Meanwhile, the "average" team that had been around him went to the playoffs despite having its worst defense in a long time, rookie offensive tackles, and a QB who was seen as one of the worst in the league, not even deserving of being a starter.

 

[BASF]

Krieg and Hass were both stars. For anyone to say otherwise is a stretch.

Neither had the benefit of a coach who was either able to assemble the all around talent that Pete did

I don't think I would go that far for Knox or Holmgren.

We had the talent to win the Super Bowl in 83 through 86 under Knox.

We had the talent to win the Super Bowl 03 through 06 under Holmgren.

We had the talent to win the Super Bowl 12 through 16 under Carroll (I might be convinced that 20 could be included in that list, but it is stretching it as far as I am concerned).

So, realistically Carroll had one more season window than the others. I have been on record here numerous times about the 04 season and how Terreal Bierria's terrible played cost us home field and being able to go the Super Bowl. In 03, if we beat the Packers, we don't lose to the Eagles and may or may not have beaten the Panthers to get in. In 06, if Alexander and Tubbs are healthy all season, we probably go to the Super Bowl. Remember that the Bears barely beat us, if Tubbs was playing, that does not happen.

 

[keasley45]

I don't think I would go that far for Knox or Holmgren.

We had the talent to win the Super Bowl in 83 through 86 under Knox.

We had the talent to win the Super Bowl 03 through 06 under Holmgren.

We had the talent to win the Super Bowl 12 through 16 under Carroll (I might be convinced that 20 could be included in that list, but it is stretching it as far as I am concerned).

So, realistically Carroll had one more season window than the others. I have been on record here numerous times about the 04 season and how Terreal Bierria's terrible played cost us home field and being able to go the Super Bowl. In 03, if we beat the Packers, we don't lose to the Eagles and may or may not have beaten the Panthers to get in. In 06, if Alexander and Tubbs are healthy all season, we probably go to the Super Bowl. Remember that the Bears barely beat us, if Tubbs was playing, that does not happen.

They were both all time great coaches. But only Knox comes close to building the complete team Pete did. And even though Knox came close, he also didn't have the same awareness when it came to the QB position that Pete had. Knox made Kreig, kept him on a short leash and then unnecessarily broke him and shipped him out of town. And his teams, save for 1 season, perpetually hovered around. 500.. a game above or below.

And Holmgren was great on offense, his defenses, though for a few years gifted with talented players, were never units to be too concerned about. He was a passing game genius. But his teams were also mired in the .500 +/- club and often below with only 2 season at 10-6 and one at 13-3.

And both were past their primes after their windows. Pete? The dude is about to open it back up again.

Don't get me wrong, i think they were all great. As were Russ, Krieg and Hass.

Love some Ground Chuck.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

So what happened to that "elite" QB's supposed magic ability to "will" a team to the playoffs last season? He went to a team that was stronger than the Seahawks, with a much-better defense, a better offensive line, and better "weapons," a team where he himself said he wanted to go play because he "wouldn't have to carry" it. And what happened? He willed that stronger-than-the-Seahawks team to the third-worst record in its conference, fifth-worst in the NFL.

Meanwhile, the "average" team that had been around him went to the playoffs despite having its worst defense in a long time, rookie offensive tackles, and a QB who was seen as one of the worst in the league, not even deserving of being a starter.

Who cares what he did with the Broncos in his 11th season, we're only talking about whether he was elite in his 10 years here. Even still, that's a ridiculous argument. Everyone ages out, pretty much every single GOAT at every single position had their skills erode to the point they weren't the best anymore.

 

[FattyKnuckle]

With an inferior team? Ok

Can you expound on what you mean?