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 Post subject: Catch area
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:02 pm 
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The Seahawks signing of a 6-8 former basketball player has highlighted for me what they are probably looking for in a wide receiver as well. You might point to Tate and Butler as examples of shorter receivers they've drafted, and Baldwin as another, but they cut Butler in favor of taller receivers, and spent much of last off season and into the regular season trying to challenge Tate with larger receivers.

I think this trend will continue even more so with Russell Wilson at QB. Not only because of his height, but because he excels at throwing the jump ball and leading the throw where only the receiver can catch it. Doing that requires height, length and leaping ability from the WR. I think one of the traits the team is looking for is catch area.

I figured catch area as function of wingspan and rise. Wingspan equals arms plus shoulder width (roughly 24 inches) . . . Rise equal height minus head (roughly 12 inches) plus arm length plus vertical. Used an online ellipse calculator to figure the to figure the catch area.

Compa these two highly rated receivers . . . Anonymity makes it fun, even though by my bias you can easily figure out who is who . . .

WR1 - 5'8", 30 inch arms, 32 inch vertical . . . Wingspan = 84 inches, Rise = 118 inches
Catch area = 7,784 square inches . . . Seems pretty big
WR2 - 6'4", 33 inch arms, 40 inch vertical . . . Wingspan = 90 inches, Rise = 137 inches
Catch area = 9,684 square inches . . . Almost 25% more area to throw to!

In a game of inches, that can make a huge difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:34 pm 
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Sounds like Goodwin vs Hunter. I agree that we are wanting to get bigger at the offensive skill positions, I just never figured on using math to do so. I think this is a very under estimated phylosophy. I fully expect us to bring in another larger WR 6'2-6'4 that is either ready to play or will be ready to play by end of season. I don;t think we can afford a complete project as our 4th WR. I think we need a guy who can step in for Rice game 1 if he get injured. There will not be too many of those types after the 3rd round so a WR early is a very logical choice for me. I'd be happy with Allen, Hunter, Dobson, Williams if they were available in the 1st or 2nd.

I also think at TE we will look to add a big guy or a speed guy depending on the value. It could go either way but at #25 if we are picking between Eifert, Alle, or Short I think Offense is the better value there.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:11 pm 
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I don't know who the receivers are you measured but its a really cool calculation. I think that may be a reason for us not to select Tavon Austin. I would love to have him but I could see his catch area being an issue with deep balls. I think he would still be good for the team for screens and dump offs but as a deep threat his "catch area" margin for error would be razor thin requiring pinpoint accuracy from RW. It would also be interesting to put DB's under the same scope. I bet Sherm and Browner fair pretty well against the rest of the league. cool post


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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Hopkins has the largest catch area of any WR in the draft including those 6-4 and up.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:26 pm 
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They didn't draft Butler.


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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:33 pm 
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lukerguy wrote:
Hopkins has the largest catch area of any WR in the draft including those 6-4 and up.


Hopkins and Hunter have nearly identical arm length, but Huntr is 3 inches taller and has 4 inches more in vertical, so his catch area exceeds Hopkins by virtue of being able to elevate 7 inches higher.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:54 pm 
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McGruff wrote:
lukerguy wrote:
Hopkins has the largest catch area of any WR in the draft including those 6-4 and up.


Hopkins and Hunter have nearly identical arm length, but Huntr is 3 inches taller and has 4 inches more in vertical, so his catch area exceeds Hopkins by virtue of being able to elevate 7 inches higher.



I understand the physics, but what i'm saying is Hopkins has the best body control of any WR in the draft so if you throw it 6 feet behind him on a back shoulder fade, he will grab it. Hunter may be taller and jump higher, but his catching radius is smaller.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:07 pm 
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Not mathematically.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:07 pm 
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lukerguy wrote:
McGruff wrote:
lukerguy wrote:
Hopkins has the largest catch area of any WR in the draft including those 6-4 and up.


Hopkins and Hunter have nearly identical arm length, but Huntr is 3 inches taller and has 4 inches more in vertical, so his catch area exceeds Hopkins by virtue of being able to elevate 7 inches higher.



I understand the physics, but what i'm saying is Hopkins has the best body control of any WR in the draft so if you throw it 6 feet behind him on a back shoulder fade, he will grab it. Hunter may be taller and jump higher, but his catching radius is smaller.


6feet behind him and he'll catch it? Stretch Armstrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:07 pm 
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lukerguy wrote:
McGruff wrote:
lukerguy wrote:
Hopkins has the largest catch area of any WR in the draft including those 6-4 and up.


Hopkins and Hunter have nearly identical arm length, but Huntr is 3 inches taller and has 4 inches more in vertical, so his catch area exceeds Hopkins by virtue of being able to elevate 7 inches higher.



I understand the physics, but what i'm saying is Hopkins has the best body control of any WR in the draft so if you throw it 6 feet behind him on a back shoulder fade, he will grab it. Hunter may be taller and jump higher, but his catching radius is smaller.


Good post by McGruff....

Re: lurkerguy....that makes no sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Does anyone understand the concept of a back shoulder fade? you throw it 6 feet behind the WR at the goal line. The WR turns back towards the ball, and dives to catch it. It's all about body control. Let me ask you, if someone is 6 feet, don't you think they could dive backwards the length of their body to make a catch once it's in the air?



Right before Ben released it he started moving towards the sideline and was about 6 feet from where the ball ended up. I'm talking about body control and awareness... no one has more of it in this draft than Hopkins.

We may be talking about two separate things, but i'm not talking about length + height+ vert measurable radius, but actually what I've seen on tape from a route running, body control, & catching radius perspective.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:22 pm 
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Yes, I agree if you throw a ball 10 feet in the air, there is a chance Hunter could catch it and Hopkins would not be able to reach that high, but that's not really all that applicable if you have poor timing, route running, body control, and catching ability (grab it with just your hands, like hopkins does on every catch).

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:08 am 
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lukerguy wrote:
I understand the physics, but what i'm saying is Hopkins has the best body control of any WR in the draft so if you throw it 6 feet behind him on a back shoulder fade, he will grab it. Hunter may be taller and jump higher, but his catching radius is smaller.


:roll:

:34853_doh:

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:52 am 
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HawksFTW wrote:
lukerguy wrote:
I understand the physics, but what i'm saying is Hopkins has the best body control of any WR in the draft so if you throw it 6 feet behind him on a back shoulder fade, he will grab it. Hunter may be taller and jump higher, but his catching radius is smaller.


:roll:

:34853_doh:


You guys are so childish. Your perception is that I meant that a ball is throw 6 feet behind him on a drag route.

I'm simply talking a designed back shoulder throw. Coming out of the break the QB throws it 6 feet from the WR's belly button (radius), and he WR has the body control to move towards the ball, dive and catch with his hands. Hunter cannot make that play, Hopkins can.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:52 am 
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We all have it loud and clear that you like WR- Hopkins a great deal unfortunately mathematically your argument fails. I like Hopkins too, but the point of the thread isn't to rag on him but to discuss the concept of actual catch radius and not the skill of any specific WR in catching.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:08 pm 
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jammerhawk wrote:
unfortunately mathematically your argument fails.


Did you not read anything I just wrote? Honestly? You must be some kind of ignorant.

I already admitted that I believed Hunter had a larger catch area in the traditional sense of how you calculate WR catch area (=Height+ arm length+ vertical leap). There is no arguing that Hunter is taller and can jump higher. :1:

I'm talking about in came adjustments to passes only. I think Hopkins does that better than anyone in the draft, and thus as a better functional catch radius. Agree or disagree with that statement, but I'm not talking about catch radius in the traditional sense of the measurement.


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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:25 pm 
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lukerguy wrote:
HawksFTW wrote:
lukerguy wrote:
I understand the physics, but what i'm saying is Hopkins has the best body control of any WR in the draft so if you throw it 6 feet behind him on a back shoulder fade, he will grab it. Hunter may be taller and jump higher, but his catching radius is smaller.


:roll:

:34853_doh:


You guys are so childish. Your perception is that I meant that a ball is throw 6 feet behind him on a drag route.

I'm simply talking a designed back shoulder throw. Coming out of the break the QB throws it 6 feet from the WR's belly button (radius), and he WR has the body control to move towards the ball, dive and catch with his hands. Hunter cannot make that play, Hopkins can.


The main problem people are having with your argument is you are basing it on opinion and not the physical data. Catch radius is a metric. The facts are Hunter has a larger catch radius.

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Last edited by ImTheScientist on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:32 pm 
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I don't have a problem with objective analysis. Good on you luker for coming to conclusions watching tape.

One thing I notice watching tape is that Hunter has very few contested throws . . . and a lot of that is because of his physical gifts and route running (I don't think Hopkins is a better route runner . . . both are very good in that area).

SO the question may be one of who would you rather want? The guy who makes contested catches on a regular basis because he struggles to gain separation, or the guy who regularly gains separation and doesn't have to fight for the ball?

And FTR, I see a lot of jump balls in Hunter's clips where he wins the battle for the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:36 pm 
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McGruff wrote:
I don't have a problem with objective analysis. Good on you luker for coming to conclusions watching tape.

One thing I notice watching tape is that Hunter has very few contested throws . . . and a lot of that is because of his physical gifts and route running (I don't think Hopkins is a better route runner . . . both are very good in that area).

SO the question may be one of who would you rather want? The guy who makes contested catches on a regular basis because he struggles to gain separation, or the guy who regularly gains separation and doesn't have to fight for the ball?

And FTR, I see a lot of jump balls in Hunter's clips where he wins the battle for the ball.


Give me separation all day.....

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:54 am 
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Basic physics aside, Justin Hunter had 9 TD's last year on a bad team when against good competition. 6 of the 9 came against Georgia State and Troy so unless your gonna get him in the 4th round I will pass. One year of major college football does not make a polished route runner or a NFL wr.


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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:48 am 
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penihawk wrote:
Basic physics aside, Justin Hunter had 9 TD's last year on a bad team when against good competition. 6 of the 9 came against Georgia State and Troy so unless your gonna get him in the 4th round I will pass. One year of major college football does not make a polished route runner or a NFL wr.


:229031_cheers:

Good point.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:39 pm 
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penihawk wrote:
Basic physics aside, Justin Hunter had 9 TD's last year on a bad team when against good competition. 6 of the 9 came against Georgia State and Troy so unless your gonna get him in the 4th round I will pass. One year of major college football does not make a polished route runner or a NFL wr.


That is why most teams project players... Tim Ruskell didn't .... He got fired.

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 Post subject: Re: Catch area
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:27 pm 
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I get what you're saying luker.....some guys catch better at full extension than others, thus giving you a better catch radius.

The only metric they've been able to put on "good hands" is hand size, which isn't exact. The intangible I've heard many times for this is "concentration".

I haven't scouted either player, but some guys can catch the ball farther away from the body than others, and it has nothing to do with hand size. I don't know a metric that measures hand-eye coordination.


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