A Different Kind of Wilson Thread

sa_seahawker":1t4nlext said:

m0ng0":1t4nlext said:

People may critize Bevell and Petes offense but it is a tried and true blueprint that works, but in order for it to work you have to have patience and execute it properly (that goes for the entire offense not just Russ) Once you can show you have digested and can execute the offense THEN wrinkles can be implemented that showcase Russells strengths as quarterback and really make this offense exciting.

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I'm sure it worked great at USC, just like Dennis Erickson's coaching worked great at the University of Miami...I'm just sayin' :mrgreen:

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blueprint for success when you have a dominent offensive line.... and a vetran qb... good coaches would realize this and adjust.. bevell is not adjusting..

Hawksfanatik":31a5e7kv said:

T-Sizzle":31a5e7kv said:

Hawksfanatik":31a5e7kv said:

For our team now, Matt Flynn is the choice I would make. He sees the field so much better than Wilson (yeah he is a rookie). So what... You can't win in a passing league throwing for 100-150 yards per game.

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1) Your see's the filed comment is speculation. You have no factual evidence.
2) Our offense will be the same with Flynn..... He is less experienced than Russell Wilson and things would be scaled back.

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Without attacking the poster, I am attacking your post. In my opinion, your so far off it isnt funny.

1) Its well known and I think even Pete Carroll mentioned how Flynn is good at seeing the field, he mentioned that as a strength in training camp. He sees things quickly, and if you watched him play in Green Bay, that appears to be the case.

2) Its hard to say hes less experienced. Yes gametime, true. But he is an NFL vet who learned behind Aaron Rodgers for years. In fact, Rodgers called him a top 15 QB in the game. Yes, he only has two games experience, but I would bet my money he has a lot more football knowledge than Russell Wilson at this point in time.


Agree to disagree, but I am a pretty open minded guy and on your two points in particular, you are way off buddy.

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After having learned the GB system for 4 years, alongside Aaron Rodgers, after having worked for 4 years with those receivers, in that offense...Rodgers said that he could be a "top-15 QB"...that isn't saying much. I'll tell you right now, Russell Wilson, after 4 months in our "system" would already be a top-15 QB if his receivers would catch the f**king ball when he throws it to them.

Obviously, people are seeing what they want to see when they watch these games. I can't believe Wilson is being criticized as much as he is on this board.

Wilson can excel with this group of receivers, but the coaching staff needs to implement a completely different package of passing plays for that to occur. If we don't have numerous 7-20 yd plays being practiced, we need to start yesterday. He looks just fine to me in the pocket going through reads. He's a tad slow, but he's learning. Part of the reason he's slow is that our passing plays are designed to take a long time to develop...which, without quality receivers and adequate checkdowns, results in what we saw last night.

by the way.. where is our quick slants and quick outs.. can honestly say i don't remeber seeing one this season... could be wrong.....

hawker84":1bn9u2cn said:

by the way.. where is our quick slants and quick outs.. can honestly say i don't remeber seeing one this season... could be wrong.....

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Tate dropped a quick slant in the 2nd half which would have given us a first down. Instead we punted and SF marched down the field and scored their only TD. Quick slant is also the pass Edwards dropped for the game winning TD in Arizona. See a pattern here?

Slants and quick outs require WR separation, something our WR's have a hard time doing.............combine that with Wilson not being very accurate on said slants and outs (interception for TD against Carolina), and you have a recipe for disaster in the passing game.

hawker84":24rnzlb0 said:

by the way.. where is our quick slants and quick outs.. can honestly say i don't remeber seeing one this season... could be wrong.....

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Did you not see Tate's epic drop on 3rd down last night? I believe that was a slant.

Anyhow, to anyone who is surprised that Wilson gets critisized, I honestly don't know what to tell you. It's almost mind-bloggling to me that anyone thinks the QB position is somehow above that sort of thing. Objective criticism is a good thing.

This thread's agenda, if it has one, is based on the premise that Wilson will remain our starter for the forseeable future. With that in mind, what do we think he needs to do to improve? I'm trying to have an objective conversation about our starting quarterback, not bitch and whine about WRs, coaches, bad OL, etc. This thread, I hope, will focus on constructive observations and recommendations and NOT excuses.

Excuses are cheap, and they've all be made. I want to know what you geniuses think he can do to improve.

Would you please stop with this rational crap! And here I thought you were Irish...LOL!!!

Sgt. Largent":3kqvuw2z said:

hawker84":3kqvuw2z said:

by the way.. where is our quick slants and quick outs.. can honestly say i don't remeber seeing one this season... could be wrong.....

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Tate dropped a quick slant in the 2nd half which would have given us a first down. Instead we punted and SF marched down the field and scored their only TD. Quick slant is also the pass Edwards dropped for the game winning TD in Arizona. See a pattern here?

Slants and quick outs require WR separation, something our WR's have a hard time doing.............combine that with Wilson not being very accurate on said slants and outs (interception for TD against Carolina), and you have a recipe for disaster in the passing game.

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it is exactly the opposite. On slants you 'throw' the receiver open. There's really not much time for separation.

LoneHawkFan":1xp1iads said:

Obviously, people are seeing what they want to see when they watch these games. I can't believe Wilson is being criticized as much as he is on this board.

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:13:

LoneHawkFan":bo70cead said:

After having learned the GB system for 4 years, alongside Aaron Rodgers, after having worked for 4 years with those receivers, in that offense...Rodgers said that he could be a "top-15 QB"...that isn't saying much. I'll tell you right now, Russell Wilson, after 4 months in our "system" would already be a top-15 QB if his receivers would catch the f**king ball when he throws it to them.

Obviously, people are seeing what they want to see when they watch these games. I can't believe Wilson is being criticized as much as he is on this board.

Wilson can excel with this group of receivers, but the coaching staff needs to implement a completely different package of passing plays for that to occur. If we don't have numerous 7-20 yd plays being practiced, we need to start yesterday. He looks just fine to me in the pocket going through reads. He's a tad slow, but he's learning. Part of the reason he's slow is that our passing plays are designed to take a long time to develop...which, without quality receivers and adequate checkdowns, results in what we saw last night.

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During last nights game, after the second dropped pass, they threw up a stat showing that Seattle's receivers had only dropped 3 passes all season and already had dropped 2 that night. So if the Hawks never dropped a single ball all year - and you honestly think the rest of the QB's in the NFL haven't had MORE dropped passes than Wilson? - RW wouldn't climb too far from where he already dwells near the cellar.

I feel like when you have a 0 as a qb rating the second half when the game is on the line, you probably still have some improving to do, its not 100% on the rest of the team.

I think the play that bothered me the most besides the pick was when Wilson was playing ring around the rosie with one of his lineman, and started running the wrong direction. I can't even remember the result of that play, I think he threw it out of bounds, but I just remember thinking what the hell is going on! It also seems like he is still falling back in the pocket too deep right into the path of defensive ends instead of giving his line the chance to make a pocket.

MysterMatt":3et7rqx6 said:

hawker84":3et7rqx6 said:

by the way.. where is our quick slants and quick outs.. can honestly say i don't remeber seeing one this season... could be wrong.....

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Did you not see Tate's epic drop on 3rd down last night? I believe that was a slant.

Anyhow, to anyone who is surprised that Wilson gets critisized, I honestly don't know what to tell you. It's almost mind-bloggling to me that anyone thinks the QB position is somehow above that sort of thing. Objective criticism is a good thing.

This thread's agenda, if it has one, is based on the premise that Wilson will remain our starter for the forseeable future. With that in mind, what do we think he needs to do to improve? I'm trying to have an objective conversation about our starting quarterback, not bitch and whine about WRs, coaches, bad OL, etc. This thread, I hope, will focus on constructive observations and recommendations and NOT excuses.

Excuses are cheap, and they've all be made. I want to know what you geniuses think he can do to improve.

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I think that to improve, Wilson needs to sit and watch for a while. Practicing with the second string will help him to get his fundamentals down. STeve Young was considered a bust until the Niners took him from TB and had him spend some time learning as the backup QB. That approach is a tried and true approach that has worked for many successful QB's. The teams that don't use that approach tend to be desperate teams who are rebuilding. And the majority of the time, those QB's get shellshocked in the process and are ruined. It's better to start on a solid team like Seattle's. It's even better than that to start on a solid team like Seattle's after you've had a couple years gaining invaluable experience in practice.

That's why Flynn did so well for GB. He was on a solid team AND he'd had a few years to learn the system inside out and get acclimated to the NFL.

LymonHawk":2pgla41d said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it is exactly the opposite. On slants you 'throw' the receiver open. There's really not much time for separation.

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Every catch requires separation, quick slants and outs just so happen to require the separation to be done faster. It requires technique and tenacity at the line of scrimmage on the WR's part.

This is what makes our DB's so good, they're so dominant that they get up on the line and don't allow the WR to get any separation. This is also what happened with our WR's last night. They were dominated.........and when they did get open they dropped the damn ball.

SouthSoundHawk":38q971oj said:

Hawksfanatik":38q971oj said:

For our team now, Matt Flynn is the choice I would make. He sees the field so much better than Wilson (yeah he is a rookie). So what... You can't win in a passing league throwing for 100-150 yards per game.

If our Defense is holding thier own and we are rushing over 100 yards per game, if we just have average passing stats, we'd be undefeated.

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...bums me out to say it...but..Alex Smith seems to be doing a pretty good job with this.

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And did you watch Alex Smith trying to lead his team to a comeback win last week?......if you missed it it was because it didn't happen. Instead when asked to attack the opponent Alex lined up int after int

SalishHawkFan":hte4tjwr said:

MysterMatt":hte4tjwr said:

hawker84":hte4tjwr said:

by the way.. where is our quick slants and quick outs.. can honestly say i don't remeber seeing one this season... could be wrong.....

Click to expand...

Did you not see Tate's epic drop on 3rd down last night? I believe that was a slant.

Anyhow, to anyone who is surprised that Wilson gets critisized, I honestly don't know what to tell you. It's almost mind-bloggling to me that anyone thinks the QB position is somehow above that sort of thing. Objective criticism is a good thing.

This thread's agenda, if it has one, is based on the premise that Wilson will remain our starter for the forseeable future. With that in mind, what do we think he needs to do to improve? I'm trying to have an objective conversation about our starting quarterback, not bitch and whine about WRs, coaches, bad OL, etc. This thread, I hope, will focus on constructive observations and recommendations and NOT excuses.

Excuses are cheap, and they've all be made. I want to know what you geniuses think he can do to improve.

Click to expand...

I think that to improve, Wilson needs to sit and watch for a while. Practicing with the second string will help him to get his fundamentals down. STeve Young was considered a bust until the Niners took him from TB and had him spend some time learning as the backup QB. That approach is a tried and true approach that has worked for many successful QB's. The teams that don't use that approach tend to be desperate teams who are rebuilding. And the majority of the time, those QB's get shellshocked in the process and are ruined. It's better to start on a solid team like Seattle's. It's even better than that to start on a solid team like Seattle's after you've had a couple years gaining invaluable experience in practice.

That's why Flynn did so well for GB. He was on a solid team AND he'd had a few years to learn the system inside out and get acclimated to the NFL.

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And that goes back to the primary difference in philosophies between lots of folks on this board. Some people think that sitting on the bench leads to better play. Others think that the best way for a QB to improve is to actually play. And for every QB you can name in support of one approach, you can name another equally as good in support of the other.

Me, I think if a QB has the talent, intelligence, leadership, etc., then he needs to play. And I think that Wilson is the best QB on our roster. I think his athleticism and arm are top notch, and I think he has that intangible "IT" factor that tends to lead to late-game heroics like we saw against NE. I think as he gains experience BY PLAYING, he will get better and better, and that he has the talent to lead us to greater results both now and in the future than any other QB we have.

Matt, Wilson's work ethic is already well-established. He's been improving all elements of his game thus far. It seems to me that he and the coaches have been identifying areas for improvement and addressing them each week. That process needs to continue.

And Salish, Flynn did do well in his last start for Green Bay. That's because he was in the same system for 4 years, was throwing to an outstanding WR corps and TE, and the Lions couldn't gameplan for him. None of that indicates that he would (or even could) do the same in our system with our offensive weapons.

well i guess when they only throw 3 or 4 quick hit pass plays in 6 games you tend to not remember them, especially if they lead to incompletions, my bad... i guess i need to avoid these wilson bashing threads, cuz i just don't understand your logic behind the arguments... you're more than intitled to you opinions, i'll just say it's going to make for a very long and fustrating season for you , because flynn's not getting in, and wilson will continue to make mistakes along the way, it's called the learning process. so i choose to look at the improvements every game instead of every little mistake, and take the good with the bad.. if there's one thing not one person in this forum cannot say is, for every bad play wilson has had, he's a a good if not great one... it's called football... just my humble opinion

edogg23":3v7cwsrm said:

I feel like when you have a 0 as a qb rating the second half when the game is on the line, you probably still have some improving to do, its not 100% on the rest of the team.

I think the play that bothered me the most besides the pick was when Wilson was playing ring around the rosie with one of his lineman, and started running the wrong direction. I can't even remember the result of that play, I think he threw it out of bounds, but I just remember thinking what the hell is going on! It also seems like he is still falling back in the pocket too deep right into the path of defensive ends instead of giving his line the chance to make a pocket.

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Tom Brady has improving to do.

T-Sizzle":jaylbooq said:

edogg23":jaylbooq said:

I feel like when you have a 0 as a qb rating the second half when the game is on the line, you probably still have some improving to do, its not 100% on the rest of the team.

I think the play that bothered me the most besides the pick was when Wilson was playing ring around the rosie with one of his lineman, and started running the wrong direction. I can't even remember the result of that play, I think he threw it out of bounds, but I just remember thinking what the hell is going on! It also seems like he is still falling back in the pocket too deep right into the path of defensive ends instead of giving his line the chance to make a pocket.

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Tom Brady has improving to do.

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OK I will call him on my cell phone and tell him that

SalishHawkFan":lvc6h2t5 said:

LoneHawkFan":lvc6h2t5 said:

After having learned the GB system for 4 years, alongside Aaron Rodgers, after having worked for 4 years with those receivers, in that offense...Rodgers said that he could be a "top-15 QB"...that isn't saying much. I'll tell you right now, Russell Wilson, after 4 months in our "system" would already be a top-15 QB if his receivers would catch the f**king ball when he throws it to them.

Obviously, people are seeing what they want to see when they watch these games. I can't believe Wilson is being criticized as much as he is on this board.

Wilson can excel with this group of receivers, but the coaching staff needs to implement a completely different package of passing plays for that to occur. If we don't have numerous 7-20 yd plays being practiced, we need to start yesterday. He looks just fine to me in the pocket going through reads. He's a tad slow, but he's learning. Part of the reason he's slow is that our passing plays are designed to take a long time to develop...which, without quality receivers and adequate checkdowns, results in what we saw last night.

Click to expand...

During last nights game, after the second dropped pass, they threw up a stat showing that Seattle's receivers had only dropped 3 passes all season and already had dropped 2 that night. So if the Hawks never dropped a single ball all year - and you honestly think the rest of the QB's in the NFL haven't had MORE dropped passes than Wilson? - RW wouldn't climb too far from where he already dwells near the cellar.

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Let me ask you this...in the first 6 games...how many times did a receiver have two hands on the ball only to have it fall incomplete? Three? That would be...a joke.

What I'm saying about him being a top-15 QB isn't a stretch...Lynch missed a ball he could have caught that ended up being an INT against STL...was that considered a drop? I think he should have caught that- don't you? If you start adding the TDs he could have had...along with all the yards...and at least one less INT, easily 2, and maybe 3-4 fewer...let's look at the #15 QB in the league right now:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... asontype/2

Russell is #23 on that list, after last night. Let's say, in a perfect world, the drop against StL doesn't happen, instead it goes for a TD, and then Turbin catches the ball last night. Two fewer INTs due to bounces off of our receivers into defenders' hands. That puts him at 10 and 5 instead of 8 and 7...add about 250 more yards and about 3-5% on his completion%...and there you go...around a top-15 QB. I understand he has 1-2 more games than the rest on the list...but the stats I come up with actually put him 11-13 on that list...he's around 14-17 after this week at 10/5, 1480, 62.5%. All of that with this conservative offense. All it takes is a tiny bit of execution on the other end of the passes.

I don't think he's great...I think he can and will be though. I wanted Flynn to start at the beginning of the year, I thought it would be best. But, I am trying to be objective...I really like what I see in Russell. A helluva lot better than what I see in our receivers. He is better at his position than they are at theirs.

Anecdotally, I agree with your assessments of Wilson's shortcomings. Particularly, short to mid routes in the middle of the field.

But, I'd like to see some stats on his throwing tendencies and completion percentages to make sure I'm not seeing what I feared/expected I would see.

LoneHawkFan":1wmyhffp said:

He is better at his position than they are at theirs.

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This is one sentence that really sums it all up nicely.