Russell Wilson VS Every Single Rookie Starter of Past 20 Yrs

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  • SalishHawkFan wrote:Points per game being a pretty relevant category. And if you give this years team an extra 60 yards passing, they not only beat AZ, they probably don't have to win on a Hail Mary vs GB and maybe they pull it off vs the Rams.

    Oh, and what relevant category did Wilson beat out TJack in at the first five game mark? I keep bringing it up, but no one gives any tangible evidence to refute it. Because they can't, it's irrefutable.


    To label Wilson a worse quarterback than Tarvaris Jackson because he fell 60 passing yards short of making his 3-2 team 5-0 is ludicrous and smells of reaching, not analysis. Same with sticking to the first five games, which is convenient for your argument but hardly an adequate sample size or fair for a rookie QB.

    To address your actual point, T-Jack averaged 6.0 ppg last year. Wilson is on track for the exact same number.

    T-Jack had a .73 TD-turnover ratio last year. Wilson is at .71 right now.

    T-Jack had a 60% completion rate last year. Wilson is at 63.2%.

    T-Jack got sacked 2.8 times last year (18 times by Week 5). Wilson's at 2.0 (10 sacks), and don't tell me that pass protection has suddenly improved. We all know how inconsistent this line has been this year except for Unger. Our right side is awful.

    T-Jack has Wilson's YPA beat by about 0.4, his sack yardage beat by about 1.0, and his YPG beat by about 43 yards (T-Jack had a whopping 206 YPG), all of which fall under the "gee, big deal" category and can be easily explained away with the coaching decisions. T-Jack also stuck religiously to the right side of the field, threw his receivers into collisions (Baldwin is still recovering from T-Jack), and stood in the pocket like a statue waiting to get sacked with the ball. Wilson does none of this. I'm really failing to see the big downgrade here.
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  • Wilson sucks.
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  • how do you like him now? :stirthepot:
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  • zhawk wrote:how do you like him now? :stirthepot:

    I think he turned a huge and important corner today. It's his job to lose. He proved he's a winner. It helped that they finally seemed to take the training wheels off.
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  • I thought this thread had a comparison chart. I'm trying to dig that one up, anyone remember which thread it was in?

    It was a list of all of the rookies and had their first 5 game stats.
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  • SalishHawkFan wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    SalishHawkFan wrote:It isn't even debatable. Despite Wilson's potential, he's a downgrade at QB over Tavaris Jackson RIGHT NOW. That isn't to say he won't improve beyond TJack.


    By what standard do you keep concluding this? Wilson is miles ahead of T-Jack in every relevant category except yards per bloody game.

    Points per game being a pretty relevant category. And if you give this years team an extra 60 yards passing, they not only beat AZ, they probably don't have to win on a Hail Mary vs GB and maybe they pull it off vs the Rams.

    Oh, and what relevant category did Wilson beat out TJack in at the first five game mark? I keep bringing it up, but no one gives any tangible evidence to refute it. Because they can't, it's irrefutable.


    Pssst. I pointed out the flaws in your "60 more yards first 5 games" argument a couple of different times in different threads. You just chose not to acknowledge it.
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  • I am curious as to what happened to the feather boa guy trolling this thread last week? Guy has over 5,000 posts and was calling out Wilson fans, personally insulting them,(under the guise of "humor"), then goes silent after OUR qb has a good game and leads our team to an amazing win. Last post was morning of game day. Had posted 29 times the previous two days, and most days prior.

    I am not saying this as an attempt to call out a fellow fan, more as an effort to bring to light why it's stupid to get so crazy opinionated about our own players. Especially negatively so. And especially why its important to have a level head and pay attention to stats like my post tried to do, as opposed to popping off emotionally. This guy here seems to be just as big of a fan as any of us. Yet he got so into ripping on one player, and the fans who supported him, that he now isn't able to enjoy the win with the rest of us. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's only coincidence. But something doesn't smell right.

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  • I read the argument several times on this page that Wilson lasted until the 3rd, so he must have some inherent flaw. This argument is then used to justify the reasoning for starting Flynn. So to those who keep bringing this up... have you bothered to consider what round Flynn was drafted in? Hint..... it was NOT the third round. Care to explain why?
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  • What are/were the QBs on the list's red zone rankings/effectiveness? 3rd downs? The comparisons in the list don't really address the points of a lot of the people who haven't been happy with Wilson and the OP appears to ignore that. I'm not, nor have I been, beating the drum for Flynn, but the way some people categorize those who think he is the better choice for this season at least as midget haters and so on are every bit as lame. To be honest, the conclusions you can reach using the OP's little list are minimal. In the meantime, I'm hoping Wilson matures into s legit NFL starter.
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  • I think more to the point, and something a few of us have been pointing out repeatedly, is that there are a number of very good quarterbacks on that chart with some incredibly bad starts to their careers. A few games into a rookie season does not define a quarterback, nor does it damn him to inadequacy or mediocrity. Even quarterbacks with very good defenses weren't the best starting out.

    The thing to take from watching him is this: he has learned and progressed from every game he's played in. First couple of games he was criticized for overthrowing. That hasn't been a problem at all the last few. He was then criticized for being inefficient in third down conversions. Again made stark improvements after. Then he was criticized for poor play in the red zone and a failure to score touchdowns. He did much better there against New England.

    He still has a lot to learn, and I'd guess he'd be the first to tell us that. But he's progressing, and doing so at a pace far better than many imagined he might.
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  • I suspect a few people are laying low... waiting for the inevitable bad game which almost certainly will come. It could happen on Thursday. He's a rookie and for all the progress he's shown so far, he's probably going to have another Rams game where he throws three picks and struggles a bit. It's all part of the process. But as Sailor notes above, the fact he's learning from mistakes and making clear improvements validates why he's starting. He wouldn't be learning anything sat on the sidelines. And the learning process hasn't hampered the teams ability to win four games against teams like New England, Green Bay and Dallas. So even if certain people return to crow after Wilson's next bad game... more fool them.
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  • Honi soit qui mal y pense. Right, Rob?
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  • peachesenregalia wrote:Honi soit qui mal y pense. Right, Rob?


    No shame here, peaches. I think Hawkadeus has a point.
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  • theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
    peachesenregalia wrote:Honi soit qui mal y pense. Right, Rob?


    No shame here, peaches. I think Hawkadeus has a point.


    That's what I meant. Shame on those who think ill of Wilson after he has an inevitable bad game this season. He's a rookie, and he's doing very well do far.
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  • Ah right... I've got you.
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  • peachesenregalia wrote:Shame on those who think ill of Wilson after he has an inevitable bad game this season.


    That's an almost-understandable byproduct of rookiedom. If Peyton Manning shows a bad day to his fans, they don't care. He's proven that he can come back.

    If Russell Wilson shows a bad day to HIS fans, all anxious and on tenterhooks in regard to his potential, it's not just a bad day but a possible indictment on his future. Add Matt Flynn to the mix, and you realize that Wilson was never gonna get a fair shake until he threw a stat line like Sunday's.
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  • Hawkadeus wrote:I am curious as to what happened to the feather boa guy trolling this thread last week? Guy has over 5,000 posts and was calling out Wilson fans, personally insulting them,(under the guise of "humor"), then goes silent after OUR qb has a good game and leads our team to an amazing win. Last post was morning of game day. Had posted 29 times the previous two days, and most days prior.

    I am not saying this as an attempt to call out a fellow fan, more as an effort to bring to light why it's stupid to get so crazy opinionated about our own players. Especially negatively so. And especially why its important to have a level head and pay attention to stats like my post tried to do, as opposed to popping off emotionally. This guy here seems to be just as big of a fan as any of us. Yet he got so into ripping on one player, and the fans who supported him, that he now isn't able to enjoy the win with the rest of us. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's only coincidence. But something doesn't smell right.

    Come on people. Team over ego. We're all Seattle Seahawks fans!

    If you had a sense for context, and any kind of knowledge about who actually knows whom in this community, you'd realize how utterly ignorant you come across in this post. Stick to regurgitating Danny O'Neil articles.
    Last edited by MysterMatt on Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    peachesenregalia wrote:Shame on those who think ill of Wilson after he has an inevitable bad game this season.


    That's an almost-understandable byproduct of rookiedom. If Peyton Manning shows a bad day to his fans, they don't care. He's proven that he can come back.

    If Russell Wilson shows a bad day to HIS fans, all anxious and on tenterhooks in regard to his potential, it's not just a bad day but a possible indictment on his future. Add Matt Flynn to the mix, and you realize that Wilson was never gonna get a fair shake until he threw a stat line like Sunday's.


    Still, honi soit qui mal Russell Wilson pense. there.
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  • MysterMatt wrote:
    Hawkadeus wrote:I am curious as to what happened to the feather boa guy trolling this thread last week? Guy has over 5,000 posts and was calling out Wilson fans, personally insulting them,(under the guise of "humor"), then goes silent after OUR qb has a good game and leads our team to an amazing win. Last post was morning of game day. Had posted 29 times the previous two days, and most days prior.

    I am not saying this as an attempt to call out a fellow fan, more as an effort to bring to light why it's stupid to get so crazy opinionated about our own players. Especially negatively so. And especially why its important to have a level head and pay attention to stats like my post tried to do, as opposed to popping off emotionally. This guy here seems to be just as big of a fan as any of us. Yet he got so into ripping on one player, and the fans who supported him, that he now isn't able to enjoy the win with the rest of us. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's only coincidence. But something doesn't smell right.

    Come on people. Team over ego. We're all Seattle Seahawks fans!

    If you had a sense for context, and any kind of knowledge about who actually knows whom in this community, you'd realize how utterly ignorant come across in this post. Stick stick to regurgitating Danny O'Neil articles.


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  • Tech Worlds wrote:
    MysterMatt wrote:
    Hawkadeus wrote:I am curious as to what happened to the feather boa guy trolling this thread last week? Guy has over 5,000 posts and was calling out Wilson fans, personally insulting them,(under the guise of "humor"), then goes silent after OUR qb has a good game and leads our team to an amazing win. Last post was morning of game day. Had posted 29 times the previous two days, and most days prior.

    I am not saying this as an attempt to call out a fellow fan, more as an effort to bring to light why it's stupid to get so crazy opinionated about our own players. Especially negatively so. And especially why its important to have a level head and pay attention to stats like my post tried to do, as opposed to popping off emotionally. This guy here seems to be just as big of a fan as any of us. Yet he got so into ripping on one player, and the fans who supported him, that he now isn't able to enjoy the win with the rest of us. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's only coincidence. But something doesn't smell right.

    Come on people. Team over ego. We're all Seattle Seahawks fans!

    If you had a sense for context, and any kind of knowledge about who actually knows whom in this community, you'd realize how utterly ignorant come across in this post. Stick stick to regurgitating Danny O'Neil articles.


    This


    Ahh, I see. So, you're saying depending on who you are and who you know on this forum, one can be a giant troll to his fellow fans with zero recourse? Sorry, gents. Not falling for your cool kids club bullying. No matter how much you team up against me with veiled threats and arogant superiority. Stick to trolling the forum with obnoxious schtick, er, I mean "humor".
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  • Hawkadeus wrote:
    Tech Worlds wrote:
    MysterMatt wrote:[quote="Hawkadeus"]I am curious as to what happened to the feather boa guy trolling this thread last week? Guy has over 5,000 posts and was calling out Wilson fans, personally insulting them,(under the guise of "humor"), then goes silent after OUR qb has a good game and leads our team to an amazing win. Last post was morning of game day. Had posted 29 times the previous two days, and most days prior.

    I am not saying this as an attempt to call out a fellow fan, more as an effort to bring to light why it's stupid to get so crazy opinionated about our own players. Especially negatively so. And especially why its important to have a level head and pay attention to stats like my post tried to do, as opposed to popping off emotionally. This guy here seems to be just as big of a fan as any of us. Yet he got so into ripping on one player, and the fans who supported him, that he now isn't able to enjoy the win with the rest of us. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's only coincidence. But something doesn't smell right.

    Come on people. Team over ego. We're all Seattle Seahawks fans!

    If you had a sense for context, and any kind of knowledge about who actually knows whom in this community, you'd realize how utterly ignorant come across in this post. Stick stick to regurgitating Danny O'Neil articles.


    This


    Ahh, I see. So, you're saying depending on who you are and who you know on this forum, one can be a giant troll to his fellow fans with zero recourse? Sorry, gents. Not falling for your cool kids club bullying. No matter how much you team up against me with veiled threats and arogant superiority. Stick to trolling the forum with obnoxious schtick, er, I mean "humor".[/quote]

    Who threatened you?
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  • MysterMatt wrote:Stick to regurgitating Danny O'Neil articles.


    Damn sight better than Steve Kelley articles.
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  • Sorry Techworlds. But MysterMatt's post was the equivalent of the head cheerleader taking the new girl aside and telling her "know your role". And your silly "this" was akin to her best friend yelling "you heard!" Maybe "threat" was the wrong word. But it was most certainly veiled intimidation. That's lame and sad. No matter who knows who or how long people have posted.

    We are all Hawks fans. We should all be better than this. Fans should be able to intelectually post and discuss their opinions of players without fear or worry of being teased and ridiculed by their own fans. Or fear of having other long term posters gang up on them. I can take your guys intimidation tactics. But seeing as how this is one of the best run Hawks sites online, I find it sad that such behavior is allowed to run rampant. And others shouldn't have to put up with it. All it does is drives away good posters and discourages thoughtful posts. Given some of the posts in this thread, I don't think I'm the only one here who feels this way.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    MysterMatt wrote:Stick to regurgitating Danny O'Neil articles.


    Damn sight better than Steve Kelley articles.


    I would tend to agree.

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  • I like Wilson. And I think that chart is interesting, and useless. I think results based analysis usually is, and both sides of this debate have been too guilty of it.

    Do you think the little fella is a leader who is clutch, or don't you? I do.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:I like Wilson. And I think that chart is interesting, and useless. I think results based analysis usually is, and both sides of this debate have been too guilty of it.

    Do you think the little fella is a leader who is clutch, or don't you? I do.


    I do too. He's shown me enough heady play and QB ability to make me believe he's going to be very good for a very long time. Our WRs are just a shade above mediocre for the most part, and I believe Wilson is making them look pretty good, especially the past couple of weeks.
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  • Hawkadeus wrote:Sorry Techworlds. But MysterMatt's post was the equivalent of the head cheerleader taking the new girl aside and telling her "know your role". And your silly "this" was akin to her best friend yelling "you heard!" Maybe "threat" was the wrong word. But it was most certainly veiled intimidation. That's lame and sad. No matter who knows who or how long people have posted.

    We are all Hawks fans. We should all be better than this. Fans should be able to intelectually post and discuss their opinions of players without fear or worry of being teased and ridiculed by their own fans. Or fear of having other long term posters gang up on them. I can take your guys intimidation tactics. But seeing as how this is one of the best run Hawks sites online, I find it sad that such behavior is allowed to run rampant. And others shouldn't have to put up with it. All it does is drives away good posters and discourages thoughtful posts. Given some of the posts in this thread, I don't think I'm the only one here who feels this way.


    Sorry but I just don't see anyone attempting to intimadate you. I think you are being a little over sensitive.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    MysterMatt wrote:Stick to regurgitating Danny O'Neil articles.


    Damn sight better than Steve Kelley articles.

    True.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:I like Wilson. And I think that chart is interesting, and useless. I think results based analysis usually is, and both sides of this debate have been too guilty of it.


    The point of the chart or this thread isn't to say, "See, look! Russell Wilson is good! And will have an amazing career!" No, the point is to show just what exactly are realisitic expectations of a rookie qb starting from day one.

    If somebody shows you statistics that show Wilson to be on par with multiple successful high draft picks, and you still don't want Wilson starting, you're basically saying "I don't want a rookie starting even had we drafted one in the 1st round." Which is a perfectly reasonable argument to make. But it needs to be separated from all of the "he's only a 3rd round pick/he's too short/he'll never get any better" nonsense that fills the debate. I got zero problems with someone categorically not believing in baptism by fire. I myself disagree strong, and feel the proof is in the pudding with how the league has been run recently. But it's an acceptable stance.

    What this chart does, IMO, is shines a light on the level of expecation and nitpicking that some of the less than fans of Wilson have brought to analyzing his play. They want to be hyper-critical of his every flaw and hold him to a standard that many current pro bowlers wouldn't pass, critiquing 2 or 3 "bad throws" after mostly solid games. And then want to act as if it's some sort of sign that the guy has no future.

    If he's playing like this and has no future, I don't know what the same people could say about guys like Ryan, Flacco, Stafford, or Manning. Oh no, I do. They'd say they had plenty of room to grow. And it would be all because they were told so by high draft position and draft experts.

    Russell Wilson, and the polarizing debate he brings with him, is a fascinating case study of fan expectations/opinions/idealogy and the impact perceived draft status/expert opinions/"conventional wisdom" play with shaping many's opinions and what they see.

    I'll say it again. If Wilson was drafted #8 overall, and 6'4", his current level of play would be held up against rookie performances like the ones on this chart with pride and optimism that he will only get better. But no, he's a 3rd round pick, and sub-6 ft. So he's guilty until proven innocent. And in some people's eyes, has to play perfectly to do so.
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  • Ugh. Anguish, hurry up and fix this thing. Being constantly logged off while on mobile site in particular it seems, is maddening.

    I've more to say to hawkadaus, but will wait to get on laptop. In the meantime, the silly white knight shtick is, well, silly.
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  • Having to deal with my moms death this week I'm a bit late to this party, but wanted to say to the OP great post! :th2thumbs: Don't let the critics get you down keep it up.
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  • @ the OP. I don't need to measure his stats against anything to know what I see. To me, being clutch in the 4th quarter, even after 3 shitty quarters, is where greatness is measured. I'm not ripping your efforts, it was a decent post. It just does not tell me anything I didn't already know.

    Stats are mostly useless. If they really meant something, Flynn would have won the job based on a single game from last year. Results based analysis is nearly useless, our staff knows that, and Wilson, who won the job both off the field and on, is proving that true.

    For example, some are looking at how many yards we gave up last week, and thinking this D might be over rated. Nearly 500 yards of offense for the Pats? But those who actually know a little are saying different. Stats don't tell the real story.
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  • Hawkadeus, great posts. I suppose if must have been Tech Worlds you were referring to about constantly criticizing Wilson in the days before the Pats win. I did notice his negative attitude towards Wilson and the whole too-short rookie thing. It's just seemed way out of proportion to the actual data on Wilson's play. It's a fair point you make, if someone's down on Wilson relentlessly, right before the Patriots performance, why don't they come back and tell us how they're still right, Wilson sucks, and his play against the Pats was a fluke? Or maybe it's time for Wilson haters to eat a little crow? The know-it-all Wilson doubters are looking ignorant and prejudiced right now. Hell, I'm ignorant and prejudiced all over the place, and I'm OK with that. Big deal. I was ignorant enough to make the call that the Hawks would draft Wilson in the 3rd round, several days before the draft. I knew Wilson was something truly special, height-be-damned, and I was certain that CarrolL coveted Wilson and the whole Tannehill talk from PC was a smokescreen. But what I was sure I "knew" about Wilson could have just as easily been proven wrong at the NFL level. It hasn't--on this one.

    I'm with you that the whole thing with trying to pull some sort of "rank" by MysterMatt was just *WEIRD*, that you don't know who-knows-who here. It's great that buddies stick up for each other, but that was just a little over-sensitive or something. Your response comparing it to turf-warring cheerleaders was a hoot! I'm sure Tech Worlds can stand up for himself just fine and then some. Maybe he needed some time to reflect on Wilson's performance and see if he's still so sure it's the wrong direction. Whatever passionate Hawk fans from .NET I have the privilege to meet in person, I'm definitely going to buy them a round, whether they attack my posts or "this" them.

    I do wish you'd stop trying to confuse us with data and facts and logic, though, like you did in your posts reminding us to have realistic expectations for a rookie QB. Right now, Wilson looks like a Steve Young in the making, with a little bit of Warren Moon thrown in for good measure, just so we can relate to an actual past Seahawks QB. NOT Seneca Wallace, like some feared. NOT Rick Mirer. Not even Drew Brees. Steve Young, with a little Warren Moon and Fran Tarkenton for good measure. That's what I see when I see Wilson's play and how he prepares and how he leads. So now let's have all the Wilson doubters tell us why he still sucks and is too short, too panicked in the pocket (as if there's been one), etc. and PC is an idiot.
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    olyfan63
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  • Hawkadeus wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:I like Wilson. And I think that chart is interesting, and useless. I think results based analysis usually is, and both sides of this debate have been too guilty of it.


    The point of the chart or this thread isn't to say, "See, look! Russell Wilson is good! And will have an amazing career!" No, the point is to show just what exactly are realisitic expectations of a rookie qb starting from day one.

    If somebody shows you statistics that show Wilson to be on par with multiple successful high draft picks, and you still don't want Wilson starting, you're basically saying "I don't want a rookie starting even had we drafted one in the 1st round." Which is a perfectly reasonable argument to make. But it needs to be separated from all of the "he's only a 3rd round pick/he's too short/he'll never get any better" nonsense that fills the debate. I got zero problems with someone categorically not believing in baptism by fire. I myself disagree strong, and feel the proof is in the pudding with how the league has been run recently. But it's an acceptable stance.

    What this chart does, IMO, is shines a light on the level of expecation and nitpicking that some of the less than fans of Wilson have brought to analyzing his play. They want to be hyper-critical of his every flaw and hold him to a standard that many current pro bowlers wouldn't pass, critiquing 2 or 3 "bad throws" after mostly solid games. And then want to act as if it's some sort of sign that the guy has no future.

    If he's playing like this and has no future, I don't know what the same people could say about guys like Ryan, Flacco, Stafford, or Manning. Oh no, I do. They'd say they had plenty of room to grow. And it would be all because they were told so by high draft position and draft experts.

    Russell Wilson, and the polarizing debate he brings with him, is a fascinating case study of fan expectations/opinions/idealogy and the impact perceived draft status/expert opinions/"conventional wisdom" play with shaping many's opinions and what they see.

    I'll say it again. If Wilson was drafted #8 overall, and 6'4", his current level of play would be held up against rookie performances like the ones on this chart with pride and optimism that he will only get better. But no, he's a 3rd round pick, and sub-6 ft. So he's guilty until proven innocent. And in some people's eyes, has to play perfectly to do so.

    See to me, what I highlighted is the point. The only ones making the nonsense arguments that I've seen are the Wilson supporters when the defend Wilson. they CLAIM that's what the people who'd rather see Flynn are saying. No matter how many times I've tried to explain, in great detail, that it matters not one whit how Wilson is doing compared to other rookies, what matters is that he IS a rookie, the defenders refuse to understand the point. It's not that they can't, it seems like they simply REFUSE to.

    And in order to KEEP refusing to accept this point, they fall back on "Well, we don't know what we have in Flynn." Despite the overwhelming evidence that Flynn has had more time to develop and has shown success, knows defenses better, etc. and so we have a pretty good indication that Flynn will not suffer from the rookie learning curve that Wilson will.

    That rookie learning curve COULD HAVE cost us a playoff spot. I am getting the feeling that with a 4-2 record and being past the toughest part of the schedule, this team can survive letting Wilson progress. Though honestly I know the Wilson supporters don't want to hear this, but tough titty, it is still quite possible taht once he's on the road, or facing a really tough defense, that all this "progress" will evaporate and he'll have a bad game again.

    And when his supporters cry "of course he had a bad game, he's a ROOKIE!" they will be in denial that THAT was the Flynn supporters point all along.

    But he's earned his right to take it as far as he can and he's got the talent. We all love the guy. He's got the intangibles too. But he didn't have to start this year. He wasn't as ready as Flynn. Now all that matters is that he continue to improve. He's shown he's a winner. That the team is behind him. That he can make big plays. The traiing wheels might be coming off. We'll all see.
    Richard Sherman doesn't just wanna get in your head, he wants to build a vacation home there.

    R. Sherman: "I don't want to be an island. I want to be a tourist attraction. You come, I take your money & you go."
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