Cyrus12
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pittpnthrs":1a147exa said:
I still think it was about making Wilson the hero as opposed to Lynch who was a black sheep on the team.
Cliff Avril checks in on where things went wrong
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I still think it was about making Wilson the hero as opposed to Lynch who was a black sheep on the team.
adeltaY
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Popeyejones":gt58hxo5 said:
Good perspective pops, but the Niners got to the championship game the next year. We haven't been close since.
Coug_Hawk08
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How do you question an entire philosophy based on one play? What about all of the other plays, games, etc. Its just an excuse to get angry and blame someone else. Every time this stuff comes out I think less and less of the players we had. Many handled it horribly, clearly even more than we knew. It’s dissapointing, and I wish Pete would have recognized sooner and traded/cut/made changes. We could have cleaned up and been back competing with guys that want to play for the Seahawks.
TwistedHusky
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Really interesting how Carroll's entire legacy is going to change because of this play.
He went from one of the greatest coaches in the league challenging one of the Dynasties for the throne as the New Dynasty - to a guy that is likely going to be remembered more for the failed play than almost anything else. (For people outside of Seattle)
From the team to the top of the NFL that was leagues ahead of everyone else, to a team coming apart at the seams, fighting amongst itself and scraping for wildcard slots.
From a coach that seemed to be rocketing to the HOF and a legacy in both college and the NFL (a rare feat itself) to a coach that few would even think to include in HOF projections.
We will see what his legacy is, but I suspect that bad play call will be forever etched into his legacy. Oddly enough, I don't think it will follow Wilson half as heavily.
He went from one of the greatest coaches in the league challenging one of the Dynasties for the throne as the New Dynasty - to a guy that is likely going to be remembered more for the failed play than almost anything else. (For people outside of Seattle)
From the team to the top of the NFL that was leagues ahead of everyone else, to a team coming apart at the seams, fighting amongst itself and scraping for wildcard slots.
From a coach that seemed to be rocketing to the HOF and a legacy in both college and the NFL (a rare feat itself) to a coach that few would even think to include in HOF projections.
We will see what his legacy is, but I suspect that bad play call will be forever etched into his legacy. Oddly enough, I don't think it will follow Wilson half as heavily.
scutterhawk
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"The Defense Wins Championships", BUT, if we lose, it's someone on the Offense letting the team down, OR, it's someone in Coaching who is at FAULT.
This kind of thinking is childish.
These guys are Professional Athletes, time to stop with the blame game & move on kids.
This kind of thinking is childish.
These guys are Professional Athletes, time to stop with the blame game & move on kids.
I don't know if anyone else remembers this or even if someone else already brought it up. I've been reading about the SB49 loss and who to blame it on. The blame has to go to Bevell. Pete wanting a pass play was not wrong. There was going to be at least one pass play and everybody knew it. Personally, I wanted another Lynch run, but I wasn't 100% confident given that defensive goal line formation. But I was 99% confident and I think they could have won the game on that play, thus not needing to call a pass play on 3rd down.
The thing is, I remember being shown a video somewhere and seeing an isolated camera view of the left side of the NE defense (right side of Hawks offense). I'm not technically familiar with everything football, so my description might not be exactly right, but here goes: Bevell called that slant...a pick play where Baldwin was supposed to be getting in the way of Butler so Lockette could run his route with very little risk of interception? But when Browner saw the formation of the Hawks offense, he immediately started yelling at Butler. He was screaming and pointing at Ricardo. It was obvious that Brownwer had defended against this play numerous times in practice the year before. He kept yelling at Butler and pointing at Lockette right up until the snap. Browner then stopped Baldwin from getting in Butler's way. I even wondered if there was any way Butler committed pass interference. But like I said...I'm not that good with football...never played as a kid.
So in my estimation, the mistake was that Bevell called that particular play, and Browner recognized it. Had they kept Browner that year, they likely would have won the game. Either way, it's a pretty common goal line pass in the NFL, but i believe that if Bevell had called a play that wasn't such a basic play, they could have scored even on a pass.
The thing is, I remember being shown a video somewhere and seeing an isolated camera view of the left side of the NE defense (right side of Hawks offense). I'm not technically familiar with everything football, so my description might not be exactly right, but here goes: Bevell called that slant...a pick play where Baldwin was supposed to be getting in the way of Butler so Lockette could run his route with very little risk of interception? But when Browner saw the formation of the Hawks offense, he immediately started yelling at Butler. He was screaming and pointing at Ricardo. It was obvious that Brownwer had defended against this play numerous times in practice the year before. He kept yelling at Butler and pointing at Lockette right up until the snap. Browner then stopped Baldwin from getting in Butler's way. I even wondered if there was any way Butler committed pass interference. But like I said...I'm not that good with football...never played as a kid.
So in my estimation, the mistake was that Bevell called that particular play, and Browner recognized it. Had they kept Browner that year, they likely would have won the game. Either way, it's a pretty common goal line pass in the NFL, but i believe that if Bevell had called a play that wasn't such a basic play, they could have scored even on a pass.
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Seymour
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Funny how it's only defense whining about it. Other players on offense have left like Kearse, Willson ect and nothing about the implosion from them. 
ukeface:
Willeye^^^ You have it close except substitute Kearse for Baldwin.
ukeface:Willeye^^^ You have it close except substitute Kearse for Baldwin.
scutterhawk
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EXACTLY!Seymour":2s0jhb89 said:Funny how it's only defense whining about it. Other players on offense have left like Kearse, Willson ect and nothing about the implosion from them.
brimsalabim
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Part of Pete’s philosophy was to put a bunch of dogs together and encourage them to all be alphas. It worked in the short term but sooner or later alphas are going to fight.
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Steve2222":1tyog7ra said:
Make a career defiening mistake at your job and tell us how you got over it after every one your work with for the next 5 years brings it up every days and mocks you for it.
sdog1981
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Jville":29f0piw7 said:
You are right and I think the team made those changes 3 years late.
pittpnthrs
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Seymour":35buqi9y said:Funny how it's only defense whining about it. Other players on offense have left like Kearse, Willson ect and nothing about the implosion from them.
Because everything falls on the defense. They were riddled with injuries and yet the team was still in a position to win the game. That SB loss would have been much easier to digest if the Patriots would have blown us out. Instead it came down to a play that was so disastrous and traumatic that it destroyed the team.
Also, you'll never hear Kearse say anything about it since he failed miserably during that play.
Cyrus12":2i47r7py said:
But how does that make sense logically? It doesn't hold water. They gave him the ball on first and goal, he was 1 guy away from scoring then. So in your mind on 1st down they were like 'yeah if Lynch scores that's cool', but then on 2nd down with the play clock running they switched mindset completely to 'make sure Russ wins it that's our #1 priority'? How do you square that circle in your mind. I've asked this of every person who brings this silly idea up and have never gotten an answer that makes a lick of sense. Like why would they suddenly care then if he gets a TD after all year and all through that game proving they were fine handing it to him? There are just so many much more sensible logical explanations for passing that I can't understand the need for this conspiratorial thinking that really has no evidence. I don't mean to attack, but I've heard this before and it's always so confusing and to me at least so obviously illogical.
TwistedHusky":29v72j2s said:
This narrative that was true last season somehow got expanded to a career stat trend that just isn't there. Wilson's best Q is actually arguably the 2nd by stats, but close between 2nd and 4th. His 1st Q comp. % is also the highest of any Q, but he gets very few passing opportunities relative to other Q's. Anyway point being there is no huge trend in his career of not producing well before late game. Not by the stats anyway.
Spin Doctor
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You just inadvertently stated one of the main reasons why that play was doomed to fail. The Patriots stated it as well, it was the only play we ran in short yardage situations from that specific formation. The Patriots had been specifically practicing on defending this play in the weeks leading up to the Super Bowl. Browning also played a key role in coaching up Butler in this situation. The Patriots knew what was coming the moment we trotted out on the field in that formation. Browning, Butler, and the whole Patriots defense may as well have been in the huddle when that play was called.Sgt. Largent":1mgr5nov said:
What is even more damning is the personnel and the match-ups we chose. In order for that play to work, Kearse had to get a pick on Butler. If that pick is not made, the play is dead in the water. Unfortunately, Browner -- the most physical corner, and physically imposing corner back in the league was the guy that was matched up on Kearse. What happens? Kearse predictably gets held up at the LOS, and allows a free shot at Ricardo Lockette and the ball. The next issue was the receiver we called on to execute this play. It is a route that has zero room for error, going over the middle in a situation where the field is condensed. We called upon our worst route runner on the team to make a play that requires precision. The result here is standard fare, Lockette bungles his route. Lockette hesitates on his cut, and his route is rounded off. This is a timing throw that requires Wilson to put trust in his receiver being at the right place, and the right time. He throws a little too far to the outside. I think this specific misstep on Wilson's end occurred because his receiver screwed up his route. The placement would have been perfect Lockette wouldn't have hesitated, and rounded off his route.
The result, in retrospect was to be expected. On this play Bevell, and Carroll were not doing their job. Our players were not put into a position to succeed. The Patriots saw it coming due to our predictable play calling, the match-ups were very bad, and we relied on our weakest link to execute in a situation that required precision, and timing. Passing wasn't the worst thing we could have done at the goal line. It's the play we decided to run, under the conditions that we ran it that was the problem. If it was Baldwin, or even Kearse I don't think that ball is picked off. Why we chose Lockette as our go to receiver on that play is beyond me.
What Sherman, Bennett, and Avril have all said about Carroll is what some of us had noted for a little while now. It is a consistent theme with our departing players -- they had lost their faith in him as a head coach, and they all seemed to see him as a bit of a hypocrite. I think what Avril is saying is supported by the great purges that have happened this offseason. Bennett was shipped off for mere peanuts, we flat our cut Sherman, and we got rid of both our offensive and defensive coordinators. We replaced the mealy mouthed Bevell with an old school, no BS authoritarian style of offensive coordinator, and the inexperienced DC that let his players run all over him with an old linebacker that demands respect, and discipline. Carroll is trying to right this ship, and I think the age of "players coach" Carroll is over. I don't think I've ever seen the man look more pissed off than he did last year.
mikeak":uw5p7tjq said:
Since we are giving context. The one that drives me crazy is that first "punt" drive you listed. We are up 10 and get the ball. Russ immediately zings it 25 yards to Lockette near mid-field. 2 yard stuffed run to Lynch and then a short completion for 6 to Kearse. Here's the one that I feel gets underplayed as a turning point. 3rd and 2 and Russ lays in an absolute beauty to Kearse at maybe like the 15 or so down the left sideline. Right in basket, both hands on it and Kearse doesn't come up with it.
So the context for that drive is Wilson throws 3 dimes and yet off the field quick. I just find that sequence to be huge.
Sports Hernia
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I disagree. It was about an a bad and underperforming OC choking with time running out and the game on the line. It’s as simple as that. There was no grand conspiracy about who they wanted to be the hero or MVP.Cyrus12":2dilf5bh said:
brimsalabim
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Why we lost and why we couldn’t get over it are two different things.
TwistedHusky
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I find it odd that many of you are blaming the defensive players on this one.
It isn't some weird grudge against the offense for no reason, or them suddenly checking out because we didn't win. It isn't an example of them being 'mental midgets' or any of the weird gyrations some of your are struggling to create in order to pin blame on them.
It was human nature.
We (most of us anyway), don't like it when people shovel crap and then get caught in hypocrisy. These are smart guys that have been around the game for a long time. They know what is going on.
One of the central drivers of this team was competition. Another was accountability.
Yet, one of the most crucial plays in Seahawk HISTORY was screwed up and literally nobody was held accountable. Then as more and more problems manifested on the offense, even less accountability. It took Carroll THREE YEARS to fire his OC. And in that 3 years he piled more and more on the defense.
Hell yes they checked out. We saw how important the defense was to this team winning. When Kam held out, this team went from a world-beater to a team anyone could beat. Same thing when Earl got hurt. The Defense was the thing that made this team great and I am sure they knew it.
We were winning that SB until the key defenders got hurt. The offense had a chance to step up and they crapped the bed. Specifically our OC and Wilson crapped the bed. Since the OC had the responsibility for Wilson, I blamed the OC (and HC).
It isn't the losing of the game. It was the losing of the game where the people responsible were never called to account, no changes were made and this team kept going down a path of getting worse and worse because of it. That was the likely issue - not being upset at the loss. Being upset at the failure of the team to follow some of its own messaging and hold those accountable. Which makes the whole accountability thing BS.
If you are a defender, and you get this constant preach job of accountability + competition which you know is BS then sure it makes sense to ask "Why are we killing ourselves for this A-hole?" That is baseline human nature.
It isn't some weird grudge against the offense for no reason, or them suddenly checking out because we didn't win. It isn't an example of them being 'mental midgets' or any of the weird gyrations some of your are struggling to create in order to pin blame on them.
It was human nature.
We (most of us anyway), don't like it when people shovel crap and then get caught in hypocrisy. These are smart guys that have been around the game for a long time. They know what is going on.
One of the central drivers of this team was competition. Another was accountability.
Yet, one of the most crucial plays in Seahawk HISTORY was screwed up and literally nobody was held accountable. Then as more and more problems manifested on the offense, even less accountability. It took Carroll THREE YEARS to fire his OC. And in that 3 years he piled more and more on the defense.
Hell yes they checked out. We saw how important the defense was to this team winning. When Kam held out, this team went from a world-beater to a team anyone could beat. Same thing when Earl got hurt. The Defense was the thing that made this team great and I am sure they knew it.
We were winning that SB until the key defenders got hurt. The offense had a chance to step up and they crapped the bed. Specifically our OC and Wilson crapped the bed. Since the OC had the responsibility for Wilson, I blamed the OC (and HC).
It isn't the losing of the game. It was the losing of the game where the people responsible were never called to account, no changes were made and this team kept going down a path of getting worse and worse because of it. That was the likely issue - not being upset at the loss. Being upset at the failure of the team to follow some of its own messaging and hold those accountable. Which makes the whole accountability thing BS.
If you are a defender, and you get this constant preach job of accountability + competition which you know is BS then sure it makes sense to ask "Why are we killing ourselves for this A-hole?" That is baseline human nature.
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