I think I might just have found our answer at LEO

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  • hawksfan515 wrote:
    T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.


    The only thing still giving me confidence in the fact that Irvin can be our LEO is that Carroll said so and JS picked him. Other than that, Kearly said that Irvin isn't built to be a LEO, and so far he's right. I'm leaning towards Kearly's side here...


    I disagree. Look at the definition of the LEO position per Pete Carroll. He has flat out said Irvin fits the mold. When did Kearly say Irvin isn't built to be a LEO? LINK?

    Google "Pete Carroll + LEO" and read the articles that come up.
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  • T-Sizzle wrote:
    hawksfan515 wrote:
    T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.


    The only thing still giving me confidence in the fact that Irvin can be our LEO is that Carroll said so and JS picked him. Other than that, Kearly said that Irvin isn't built to be a LEO, and so far he's right. I'm leaning towards Kearly's side here...


    I disagree. Look at the definition of the LEO position per Pete Carroll. He has flat out said Irvin fits the mold. When did Kearly say Irvin isn't built to be a LEO? LINK?

    Google "Pete Carroll + LEO" and read the articles that come up.


    His run defense is just ultra bad.....
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  • hawksfan515 wrote:His run defense is just ultra bad.....


    Based on one game? Do you have data to back that up that is WAS BRUCE? Id be willing to bet the run defense was not good at all from anyone on the D-line Sunday.
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  • T-Sizzle wrote:
    hawksfan515 wrote:His run defense is just ultra bad.....


    Based on one game? Do you have data to back that up that is WAS BRUCE? Id be willing to bet the run defense was not good at all from anyone on the D-line Sunday.



    Well OK fine. Everyone played really bad run defense, and you know what they also played? Really bad pass defense, IE pass rush. They flat out sucked.

    You wanna take a guess what Irvin was supposed to be good at? Pass rush. You want to guess what he was good at yesterday? NOTHING.

    Look, I am all for the "he's a rookie" argument, but what happens when our main source of pass rush (the LEO position) is manned by Irvin week 1, and he hasn't made improvement, while Clem is still sidelined? What happens then??? We just live with no pass rush or run D?

    Where there's smoke there's fire. Let's not ignore it and at least address it.. If Irvin turns out to be a baller than we have a nice backup LEO.

    (BTW, PC said we need multiple pass rushers. Not just 1. There's 4 spots on the line, and I am positive Mebane is staying. So...... that means likely 3 spots are in turmoil)
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  • T-Sizzle wrote:
    Hawkfan77 wrote:
    T-Sizzle wrote:Bruce Irvin is our LEO. I guess I don't see how in one start his rookie year you can determine he isn't our LEO.

    So you want to go into next season with Irvin being the only LEO on the roster? You don't think we could benefit from adding another LEO maybe a bit stronger than Irvin who could be a better run stopper to rep in and out with? You honestly think Irvin should be the only pass rusher on the roster...?


    Thats not what was being talked about in this thread, if it is and its just adding depth behind Bruce...then Im all for depth in case Bruce goes down.

    1) Did I say he should be the only LEO? When I see "answer at LEO" I assume the OP doesn't feel we have one now.
    2) Did I say we couldn't benefit from depth?
    3) Did I say Irvin should be the only pass rusher on the roster?

    :141847_bnono:

    What?! It's not about depth...was Clemons the only DE on the field during the year? Do you think Irvin's 8 sacks came when Clemons was on or off the field?
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  • Hawkfan77 wrote:
    What?! It's not about depth...was Clemons the only DE on the field during the year? Do you think Irvin's 8 sacks came when Clemons was on or off the field?


    Clem played LEO something like 90% of the possible snaps. Look it up.
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  • T-Sizzle wrote:
    Hawkfan77 wrote:
    What?! It's not about depth...was Clemons the only DE on the field during the year? Do you think Irvin's 8 sacks came when Clemons was on or off the field?


    Clem played LEO something like 90% of the possible snaps. Look it up.


    And then Irvin came on in a situational role while Clem was on the field as well, and that's how he got his sacks........
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  • One of my favourite players within this draft class. In fact last week's mock is the first time I've had him dropping outside of round one.

    He's not a LEO based on size but he's a very accomplished pass rusher. Check out the Wisconsin tape if you can.
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  • T-Sizzle wrote:
    Hawkfan77 wrote:
    What?! It's not about depth...was Clemons the only DE on the field during the year? Do you think Irvin's 8 sacks came when Clemons was on or off the field?


    Clem played LEO something like 90% of the possible snaps. Look it up.

    Thank you for proving my point
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  • Hey Sizzle...any particular reason you're getting up in people's faces about this today?
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  • Sizzle, for the record I was one of the very first people on the Irvin bandwagon. This time last year people on this board where asking who the best pass rusher was, almost everyone gave an answer like Ingram or McClellin or Jones or Branch or Upshaw. I might have been the only person who said Irvin was the best pure pass rusher in the draft, and I even said that I didn't even think it was that close. I still thought Irvin would probably go in the 3rd round though, and I hoped and pined very publicly that the Seahawks would find a way to take him in the 3rd round round range. When Seattle took him in round 1, all the Seahawks fans around me groaned, but I was stoked and told everyone around me they would love the pick.

    That said, even as one of Irvin's very biggest fans before the draft, even then I knew that he wasn't a LEO. He has to completely sell out vs. the run and even when he does that he's below average. Not only that, but Irvin's pass rush pretty much requires him to sell out the other way, attacking the edge mercilessly without delaying a moment. He's a classic situational rusher. He has the potential to reach Clemons size, but if he did, he would probably lose that extra tenth of a second on his 40 time that makes him special. Even if he was heavier, he does not have good technique and he's not young.

    It is very obvious that his future is at the Raheem Brock role, and after watching him the entire falcons game as it happened, I am more convinced of this than ever. It's more than the Falcons game, btw. Irvin has not looked good in a 3 down role all season, the only exception was the 4th quarter of the Skins game, but that has an asterisk on it because Seattle was blitzing on almost every play.

    I've been wrong before, but I don't think I'll be wrong here. There is a reason why Pete said "pass rushers" in the plurar form.
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  • Great post Kearly. Pete was about as harsh on player as I have ever heard him after a game. When asked about irvin's performance he basically said the didn't even see Irvin out there. Ouch. Then in the same breath he says we need 2 pass rushers in the draft/offseason. Irvin could really benefit from some solid inside pass rush.
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  • My 2 cents here.

    T-siz, Irvin stinks as the LEO. even his 4 point stance is awful for a player doing anything but selling out to pass rush. He played half the snaps Pete hoped he would, because he can't stop the run. Watch the coaches tape vs Atlanta, he got his ass handed to him in the run. He cannot anchor when he is the point of attack, pure and simple. I think it is worth noting that Clem was a 235 pound linebacker when he came to the draft, and his time in college as a backer has undoubtedly been a big help in him playing the run as a DE. Those are the instincts I don't see in Irvin. Maybe linebacker is where they will find the next LEO.

    Kip, Simon looks to me like an undersized pass rush DT, like Clinton McDonald or that kid from Iowa that went to Tennessee. He would be bad at the Seattle LEO spot because he is a short area guy only. 515 pointed out what a guy like Kaepernick could do to him. Simon starts trotting when he is out of the play, even he knows he isn't going to get there. I saw Clemons chase Kaepernick down from behind, I don't see Simon ever doing that. It isn't just speed, Pete ahs said that the Leo guy might be the best athlete on the defense.

    I would love him to play him at a pass rushing DT spot after he puts on 20. He is a small space technician who moves past guards almost at will. and gets so much leverage that he kind of reminds me of Clinton McDonald. Even though Simon isn't huge, he looks to me like he could school plodding guards.

    Margus looks good in that video, but his legs are kinda skinny. I can see him having anchor issues too.
    Quanterus Smith? I liked him, but once again, does he have the speed?
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  • JSeahawks wrote:Here's a sleeper late round pick for you. Quanterus Smith, from Western Kentucky. 6'5", 249. Holds the Sunbelt conference record for most career sacks (ahead of Osi Umenyiora and Demarcus Ware. Doesnt have the suddenness of a Bruce Irvin but his tape looks pretty good. Tore his ACL as a senior so he can probably had in the 6th or 7th round. Looks like a Pete Carroll/John Schneider from out of nowhere find to me.

    And he can do it against good competition, here he is against Alabama going up against DJ Fluker who I believe is projected as a 1st round pick:



    And his complete game against Arkansas State. Keep in mind Arkansas STate has a pretty good offense (24th in the country yardage wise) .



    Wow, pretty impressive player. I hope we take 3 DLmen in this draft to supplement what we already have.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:Kip, Simon looks to me like an undersized pass rush DT, like Clinton McDonald or that kid from Iowa that went to Tennessee. He would be bad at the Seattle LEO spot because he is a short area guy only. 515 pointed out what a guy like Kaepernick could do to him. Simon starts trotting when he is out of the play, even he knows he isn't going to get there. I saw Clemons chase Kaepernick down from behind, I don't see Simon ever doing that. It isn't just speed, Pete ahs said that the Leo guy might be the best athlete on the defense.


    Yup, speed is a problem. For 10 weeks out of the season, I don't think it would factor much. But against Kaepernick, Newton, Locker, Freeman, etc, yeah, Seattle would need to compensate.

    I can't really see Simon as a DT with his run defense, but I can see why you like him as an interior pass rusher.
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