Thoughts on switching to a 3-4

[Tical21]

Assuming we're going to go from "4-3 with 3-4 personnel (which was crap btw)" to an actual 3-4, I've been thinking a lot about our personnel and who may fit and where we have big needs.

There are a few questions that we first need to deal with. Namely, what do we want out of our LBs? Do we want pure pass rushers at OLB? Or do we want guys with a little coverage ability as well? Do we want Patriots style monster ILB types, or are 230 lbers okay?

Either way, it appears to me that Darrell Taylor is the only real roster fit as a 3-4 OLB. Mayyyyybe Mayowa. You're going to have to add multiple pieces here, either through FA or the draft, or both. Hasson Reddick is the best fit but will be the most expensive. It is a VERY deep Edge/OLB draft class. We could get a really good player in r3/4. Just starting draft prep, but I love Bonitto if we are looking for more than a pure pass rusher, as he can cover a bit as well, or Ebikete from Penn State looks like a really interesting pass rusher (altho I may argue his best fit is as a 4-3 DE).

I don't think Alton can play there often, but you may be able to keep him as depth is you're only interested in pass rushing types playing that role.

I don't think Rasheem Green has any role on this team. I don't think he's big enough to play DE and line up over the tackle regularly (or even inside it), and I don't think he's agile enough to play LB. So, I don't see him being brought back.

Poona probably slides to one of the end spots, and I think will play well there. Mone will probably have a role at end as well. What we're really missing is a nose tackle. A great 3-4 defense has a great nose. I like me some Al Woods, and hope we bring him back, but you don't build a defense around him. There are many FA values for mediocre players, the Danny Shelton's of the world, etc. Austin Johnson and Sebastian Joseph-Day may be FA names to keep an eye on. I've only found one earlier round true nose in the draft so far, Jones from UConn, but it appears to be a pretty thin NT class.

Are Barton and BBK big enough to play inside in a 3-4? Will Bobby want to come back and learn a new scheme? I know the bear front we have run a lot lately is really similar in the interior to the 3-4, and should keep Barton fairly clean. I think they give him a year unless they are blown away by someone in the draft, given they don't keep Bobby around.

There are so many ways to go with the 41st pick. I don't think you target a position. Scratch safety and wr off your list and take BPA.

We're going to have to add like 3-4 big bodied dudes, and add 3 edges. Can we do this in one offseason? My guess is that the front seven will be a work-in-progress this season. We'll add a few pieces...and have a few positions that are incomplete. Anyways, I'm kind of excited to jump into the intricacies of a new scheme.

 

[nanomoz]

Great post. Hard to picture Green in a 34, for sure. I think Alton might work, though. I noticed his position is now OLB on .COM.

Aren't 34 ends typically really long? I have a hard time Imagining Poona as a 5-tech. I think he is just fine as a nose tackle in a rotation though (and all defensive lineman should be in a rotation nowadays).

Barton and Brooks would setup just fine as inside backers. And Ryan Neal makes sense as a dime backer/safety hybrid. But that's not much of a change from last season.

If Collier had shown anything last season, I'd have hope for him at 5-tech. But he really failed at 2021. And I'm the one dude that wanted him in the draft/liked the pick. Ooopsies.

It's such a deep draft at positions of need. I'm excited.

 

[Tical21]

Great post. Hard to picture Green in a 34, for sure. I think Alton might work, though. I noticed his position is now OLB on .COM.

Aren't 34 ends typically really long? I have a hard time Imagining Poona as a 5-tech. I think he is just fine as a nose tackle in a rotation though (and all defensive lineman should be in a rotation nowadays).

Barton and Brooks would setup just fine as inside backers. And Ryan Neal makes sense as a dime backer/safety hybrid. But that's not much of a change from last season.

If Collier had shown anything last season, I'd have hope for him at 5-tech. But he really failed at 2021. And I'm the one dude that wanted him in the draft/liked the pick. Ooopsies.

It's such a deep draft at positions of need. I'm excited.

Ah, yeah, I forgot about Collier. I think he can be your end of rotation guy there. He at least kinda has the body for it.

As far as being long, I think it always helps, but the best 3-4 DE in the world is the same height as Poona. There were others I found, too. I know the average weight of a starting 3-4 DE is 298, but I didn't do height. I should have.

 

[Chawker]

I'll reframe from any comment, other than saying, its a big mistake, and we'll all have to live with it for a long time.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I'll reframe from any comment, other than saying, its a big mistake, and we'll all have to live with it for a long time.

But why?

Like, schematically - why do you say this?

 

[Spohawks]

We can't stop the pass, might as well not stop the run either. Running backs are going to average 5 yards a carry against the Hawks next year.

 

[Maelstrom787]

We can't stop the pass, might as well not stop the run either. Running backs are going to average 5 yards a carry against the Hawks next year.

I think a lot of people on this forum misunderstand the defense on a fundamental level based on comments like this. Truly.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Stopping the run is overrated.

The Rams couldn't stop the run at all, all year. They won the SB.
(Admittedly with a ton of help from the referees)


But regardless, stopping the run is about 1/3 as important, if not 1/4 as important, as stopping the pass.
(Unless you mean stopping QB runs, which is very important)

Either way, it seems like you need an exceptional NT for a 3-4. At least a very good one.

Do we have one?

 

[Chawker]

I'll reframe from any comment, other than saying, its a big mistake, and we'll all have to live with it for a long time.

But why?

Like, schematically - why do you say this?

Its a totally differant set of players, large NT DEs that run near 300lbs, our Leos become OLBers, asking them to go from a allout pass rush to playing in coverage. Not to mention a second MLBer. Were not set up for it player wize. Get it ?

Cheers

 

[Maelstrom787]

I'll reframe from any comment, other than saying, its a big mistake, and we'll all have to live with it for a long time.

But why?

Like, schematically - why do you say this?

Its a totally differant set of players, large NT DEs that run near 300lbs, our Leos become OLBers, asking them to go from a allout pass rush to playing in coverage. Not to mention a second MLBer. Were not set up for it player wize. Get it ?

Cheers

That makes sense if you're thinking that Seattle runs a base 4-3 and they're discussing swapping to a base 3-4, but that just isn't the case and hasn't been for a while.

The 4-3 under has the SAM at the LOS, and the bear base they've been running has 5 on the line... Again, SAM at the LOS. Darrell Taylor is a SAM and has been playing like one.

Seattle has been employing their 3techs as big ends for 2 seasons running now. Hell, longer! Remember Red Bryant?

This isn't the binary transition you think it is. It never was. The Seahawks have run concepts and fronts that share just as much in common with a 3-4 as they do a traditional 4-3, perhaps even in favor of 3-4.

For instance, here's the base front Seattle has been running.



You honestly don't see this defense as already adjacent to 3-4 looks? This is probably exactly what they're talking about. The front is going to be multiple. It's the modern NFL. Get it ?

 

[oldhawkfan]

I don't think Rasheem Green has any role on this team. I don't think he's big enough to play DE and line up over the tackle regularly (or even inside it), and I don't think he's agile enough to play LB. So, I don't see him being brought back.

I don't get the dislike that many fans have for Rasheem Green. He is entering his 5th year and will only be 25 this coming season. To my eyes, he has improved steadily every year. He was very raw his rookie year, which is to be expected of a 20 year old. He has been a solid contributor the past couple of years. Not every player, not every draft picks needs to be an all pro superstar. Solid contributors are an integral part of any team. Green will most likely never be an Aaron Donald type of difference maker, but he's also not a liability. Saying he's not big enough to play DE is curious to me. The guy is 6'4'' 279#. Do we want Andre the Giant type of size??

Green, going into his 5th year is a good part of the rotation. Its fairly common knowledge that the Seahawks need to add more d-lineman. Getting rid of him only weakens the d-line more. If he gets beat out for his job come training camp, then fine. But that would mean a huge influx of talent in both numbers and bodies.

Count me as a fan of Rasheem Green.

 

[Tical21]

I don't think Rasheem Green has any role on this team. I don't think he's big enough to play DE and line up over the tackle regularly (or even inside it), and I don't think he's agile enough to play LB. So, I don't see him being brought back.

I don't get the dislike that many fans have for Rasheem Green. He is entering his 5th year and will only be 25 this coming season. To my eyes, he has improved steadily every year. He was very raw his rookie year, which is to be expected of a 20 year old. He has been a solid contributor the past couple of years. Not every player, not every draft picks needs to be an all pro superstar. Solid contributors are an integral part of any team. Green will most likely never be an Aaron Donald type of difference maker, but he's also not a liability. Saying he's not big enough to play DE is curious to me. The guy is 6'4'' 279#. Do we want Andre the Giant type of size??

Green, going into his 5th year is a good part of the rotation. Its fairly common knowledge that the Seahawks need to add more d-lineman. Getting rid of him only weakens the d-line more. If he gets beat out for his job come training camp, then fine. But that would mean a huge influx of talent in both numbers and bodies.

Count me as a fan of Rasheem Green.

I like him too, and if he was on the team, I wouldn’t cut him, but he’s a FA that has likely earned a mid-level contract. The average starting 3-4 DE weighs 298, and Green would be tied for the second smallest. He may even be closer to an OLB than a DE in this defense. I just don’t see a fit.

 

[Chawker]

I'll reframe from any comment, other than saying, its a big mistake, and we'll all have to live with it for a long time.

But why?

Like, schematically - why do you say this?

Its a totally differant set of players, large NT DEs that run near 300lbs, our Leos become OLBers, asking them to go from a allout pass rush to playing in coverage. Not to mention a second MLBer. Were not set up for it player wize. Get it ?

Cheers

That makes sense if you're thinking that Seattle runs a base 4-3 and they're discussing swapping to a base 3-4, but that just isn't the case and hasn't been for a while.

The 4-3 under has the SAM at the LOS, and the bear base they've been running has 5 on the line... Again, SAM at the LOS. Darrell Taylor is a SAM and has been playing like one.

Seattle has been employing their 3techs as big ends for 2 seasons running now. Hell, longer! Remember Red Bryant?

This isn't the binary transition you think it is. It never was. The Seahawks have run concepts and fronts that share just as much in common with a 3-4 as they do a traditional 4-3, perhaps even in favor of 3-4.

For instance, here's the base front Seattle has been running.



You honestly don't see this defense as already adjacent to 3-4 looks? This is probably exactly what they're talking about. The front is going to be multiple. It's the modern NFL. Get it ?

Nope ! Its at this point you're thinking Chawker is very thick headed rat. This is why we've been getting gashed for so many rush yards. Just watch and learn my friend.

Cheers

 

[Chawker]

I'll reframe from any comment, other than saying, its a big mistake, and we'll all have to live with it for a long time.

But why?

Like, schematically - why do you say this?

Its a totally differant set of players, large NT DEs that run near 300lbs, our Leos become OLBers, asking them to go from a allout pass rush to playing in coverage. Not to mention a second MLBer. Were not set up for it player wize. Get it ?

Cheers

That makes sense if you're thinking that Seattle runs a base 4-3 and they're discussing swapping to a base 3-4, but that just isn't the case and hasn't been for a while.

The 4-3 under has the SAM at the LOS, and the bear base they've been running has 5 on the line... Again, SAM at the LOS. Darrell Taylor is a SAM and has been playing like one.

Seattle has been employing their 3techs as big ends for 2 seasons running now. Hell, longer! Remember Red Bryant?

This isn't the binary transition you think it is. It never was. The Seahawks have run concepts and fronts that share just as much in common with a 3-4 as they do a traditional 4-3, perhaps even in favor of 3-4.

For instance, here's the base front Seattle has been running.



You honestly don't see this defense as already adjacent to 3-4 looks? This is probably exactly what they're talking about. The front is going to be multiple. It's the modern NFL. Get it ?

Nope ! Its at this point you're thinking Chawker is very thick headed rat. This is why we've been getting gashed for so many rush yards. Just watch and learn my friend.

Cheers

 

[Jville]

I appreciate this thread and its thoughtful and civil posts.

I've come to break out linemen as being one gap or two gap linemen. A linemen that can "excel" at both is rare. They can bring uncertainty to alignments. The incorporation of the Bear Front was, for me, a welcomed transition. In my eyes, Bryan Mone and Poona Ford are competitive two gap players. As such, they provide great value in allowing the backfield that extra man.

I'd welcome the return of Al Woods, who personifies man control (two gap) for one more year. Woods is a true heads up 0 technique nose tackle.

A 3-4 base is a balanced line. That's different than the unbalanced 4-3 based lines of years past. Two-gapping requires a defensive lineman to control the opposing offensive lineman, rip off the block and make the tackle. This defensive technique is common in 3-4 Defenses and 4-3 defenses that play an even front. The defensive techniques & alignments that are often played when playing man control are 0, 2, 4, and 6 techniques .... rather than the the 1,3,5 and 7 techniques we have heard in the past.

During this off season, I'm most interested in man or two gap linemen. Although, the talent collection they end up with in training camp will dictate what mix of fronts they can field.

Love the thread. Go Hawks!

Thanks for posting :2thumbs:

 

[Maelstrom787]

But why?

Like, schematically - why do you say this?

Its a totally differant set of players, large NT DEs that run near 300lbs, our Leos become OLBers, asking them to go from a allout pass rush to playing in coverage. Not to mention a second MLBer. Were not set up for it player wize. Get it ?

Cheers

That makes sense if you're thinking that Seattle runs a base 4-3 and they're discussing swapping to a base 3-4, but that just isn't the case and hasn't been for a while.

The 4-3 under has the SAM at the LOS, and the bear base they've been running has 5 on the line... Again, SAM at the LOS. Darrell Taylor is a SAM and has been playing like one.

Seattle has been employing their 3techs as big ends for 2 seasons running now. Hell, longer! Remember Red Bryant?

This isn't the binary transition you think it is. It never was. The Seahawks have run concepts and fronts that share just as much in common with a 3-4 as they do a traditional 4-3, perhaps even in favor of 3-4.

For instance, here's the base front Seattle has been running.



You honestly don't see this defense as already adjacent to 3-4 looks? This is probably exactly what they're talking about. The front is going to be multiple. It's the modern NFL. Get it ?

Nope ! Its at this point you're thinking Chawker is very thick headed rat. This is why we've been getting gashed for so many rush yards. Just watch and learn my friend.

Cheers

You're factually wrong about not only the scheme, but also the result - Seattle has the second best YPA allowed on rushing plays in 2021...

Again, this is not the change you think it is. I guarantee you it isn't.

 

[Chawker]

The only thing a 3-4 is good for is shuting down the swing pass or screen. We didn't win a superbowl running a 3-4 and the last time it was run in Seattle I jumped for joy when we changed back to the 4-3. The run game will be our down fall, just wait and see.

Cheers

 

[sutz]

I think people are overthinking this. But then, that's kinda what we do, I guess. :snack:

 

[Maelstrom787]

The only thing a 3-4 is good for is shuting down the swing pass or screen. We didn't win a superbowl running a 3-4 and the last time it was run in Seattle I jumped for joy when we changed back to the 4-3. The run game will be our down fall, just wait and see.

Cheers

Again, this is categorically false.

There is no inkling of truth to this. There is no correlation between 3-4 defenses and poor rush defense. This bears out continually when looking at the results.

And again, Seattle is and has been a very multiple type of front.

The Super Bowl was won with a base (and base is simply not run all the time because nickel and other packages exist) 4-3 under, which again, bears a lot of similarity to 3-4 fronts. Just as much as it does with a 4-3, really.

 

[Chawker]

OH ! So now we won the Superbowl running a 3-4, whats next... Dude 3-4 sucks at every level. Try wasting your words with others cus I aint buying your stuff bro.

Cheers