Incognito/Martin case findings

[dontbelikethat]

From another forum...and some I read myself.

Incognito: <> Jmart That <> is never [allowed] back
Pouncey: Bro I said the same thing I can’t even look at him the
same he’s a <>
Incognito: My agent just asked if we held mandatory strip club
meetings Jmart is <> ratting on everyone
Pouncey: Lol wow are you serious he is a <> boy
Pouncey: He’s not welcome back bro I can’t be around that
<> guy
Incognito: <> that guy if Ur not with s Ur against us
Pouncey: No question bro he’s a coward for snitching
Incognito: Snitches get stitches Blood in blood out <> guy
Pouncey: He’s dead to me

......

Over the next couple of days, Incognito sent the following text messages
to Martin:
Incognito: I need you buddy I’m getting killed in the media.
Incognito: Bro can we talk? The dolphins are talking about
releasing me
Martin did not respond to these text messages, and we understand that he
has not had any further communication with Incognito.

Nearly every player we interviewed had a strong reaction to Incognito. Many of them emphatically stated that he was a great teammate, a force on the field and a hard worker in the weight room and in practice. Many considered him a leader and a friend. At the same time, we repeatedly heard him described as loud, aggressive and boisterous, with little sense of social boundaries—someone who was constantly making boorish jokes and getting in his teammates’ faces, more so than other players, and frequently more than was welcome. A former teammate, Lydon Murtha, wrote in an article published on November 7, 2013 on SI.com that, while most people “can tell that some guys just aren’t built for [razzing,] Incognito doesn’t have that filter. He was the jokester on the team, and he joked with everybody from players to coaches.” During our interviews, teammates referred to Incognito using such terms as “smart mouth,” “inappropriate,” “crazy,” “vulgar” and “[removed].” Several teammates referred to his more outrageous behavior as “Richie being Richie.” One player, whom we found credible, said that Incognito was “a good player, but he is kind of a disease; he divides a locker room. . . .[Incognito] is the kind of guy who has to be the alpha male.” This player went on to say that Incognito “feels like he has to make fun of the younger players,” and “people join in with him so he doesn’t make fun of them.” Nearly all of the players with whom we spoke appeared to tolerate Incognito’s more colorful and aggressive behavior, even if they did not embrace it.

For those who think Incognito didn't know it was getting to Martin:

Once, upon hearing vulgar comments about his sister while waiting for an offensive unit meeting to begin, he says that he threatened “to start swinging in 30 seconds” if the comments did not stop, but his threat was not taken seriously, and the comments stopped only because coaches arrived and the meeting began. Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey said they did not recall hearing Martin issue this challenge, but another player recalled that on several occasions Martin told them to stop and threatened to start swinging.

A few offensive linemen, however, said that Martin was bothered, especially by the taunts about his sister, and did not view them as part of good fun. Here, we credit the minority view rather than the majority opinion and find it a more accurate depiction of the facts. Corroborating our finding are Incognito’s frank admissions that the goal of the vulgar taunting was to “get under the skin” of other players and that Martin sometimes appeared disturbed when his sister was insulted. Moreover, Incognito and other linemen joked about who among their teammates would “break first” in response to verbal taunting—further evidence that they knew their words might cause emotional distress

several linemen, whose statements we credited, corroborated Martin’s account that he routinely had been spoken to harshly and said they understood why he was offended. And several players we interviewed from other units on the team suggested that the vulgar language Martin complained about was over the top and was not common elsewhere among the Dolphins.

"Incognito boasted about "breaking Jmart" in a notebook the linemen used to tally fines and bonuses among themselves. When the investigation began, Incognito asked another player to destroy the book, but investigators obtained it."

On the OL coach:

Turner was aware of the running “joke” that Player A was gay, and on at least one occasion, he participated in the taunting. Around Christmas 2012, Coach Turner gave the offensive linemen gift bags that included a variety of stocking stuffers. The gifts included inflatable female dolls for all of the offensive linemen except Player A, who received a male “blow-up” doll. [Jonathan] Martin and another player reported that they were surprised Coach Turner did this; Martin further said that he was offended that Turner had endorsed the humiliating treatment of Player A by participating in it. Incognito and others agreed that this incident with Coach Turner occurred. When interviewed, Turner was asked if he gave Player A a male blow-up doll. He replied, “I can't remember."

Pretty depressing to read, Martin to his parents:

On April 22, 2013,Martin wrote to his mother:

I figured out a major source of my anxiety.I’m a push over, a people pleaser. I avoid confrontation whenever I can, I always want everyone to like me. I let people talk about me, say anything to my face, and I just take it, laugh it off, even when I know they are intentionally trying to disrespect me. I mostly blame the soft schools I went to,which fostered within me a feeling that
I’m a huge pussy, as I never got into fights. I used to get verbally bullied every day in middle school and high school, by kids that are half my size. I would never fight back, just get sad & feel like no one wanted to be my friend, when in fact I was just being socially awkward. Most people in that situation are witty & quick with sarcastic replies, I never have been. I’m awkward around people a lot of the time because I simply don’t know how to act around them. . .

Shortly thereafter, Martin’s mother responded:

My first thought is that I am glad you wrote this down as a way to start figuring it out. There are people in the world with their own insecurities and they tend to be bullies and confront people. Dealing with them can be a challenge. I think when you feel really good about yourself they won’t bother you as much because you won’t let them define you.This fits into wanting to please and be liked. Some people out there are not worth it. We do live in a bubble. Financial and professional success is sheltering. Which is both good and bad. I think the NFL has a disproportionate share of people who are obscure but masking it with aggression. Your
profession is really difficult with measurement and evaluation every week. So we need to build up you liking you. This is where some professional help would be good. They can help you structure your thoughts. And that whole brain chemistry thing is real. You may need some additional seratonin. . .

Martin, however, seemed unconvinced that his mother’s suggested solutions would be sufficient to alleviate his anguish. The same day, he wrote to her:I care about my legacy as a professional athlete. But I’m miserable currently. A therapist & medication won’t
help me gain the respect of my teammates. I really don't know what to do Mom

On April 29, 2013,
Martin sent the following message to his father, which included a reference to the dinner in Fort Lauderdale where Martin says
Incognito had called him a “******” and a complaint about insults concerning his sister:

People call me a ****** to my face. Happened 2 days ago.And I laughed it off. Because I am too nice of a person.
They say terrible things about my sister. I don’t do anything. I suppose it’s white private school conditioning, turning the other cheek

Martin’s father responded:
They think ****** is okay because black people use it. Tell them you don’tuse it and it is never okey and if they do it again then they can kissyour black ass. Likewise say that your sister is a Madonna. If they say it again they can kiss your ass. If they do say either again then just stare at them give them and give them your finger. Just so you know, I punked out many times including over
******. Also over just being black. Mot proud of it in the least. It is just a matter of understanding your own strength.
Had 3 white boys outside of a bowling alley calling me ******. I backed down.Had a Harvard asshole talk about my suntan. I backed
down. Just stay who you are. Also, I learned how to pop a bully in his mouth and kicked one in his balls.

On May 5, after feeling humiliated by Incognito and Pouncey during a yacht trip, Martin sent his mother these messages:
I’m never gonna change. I got punked again today. Like alittle bitch. And I never do anything about it. I was sobbing in a rented yacht bathroom earlier

 

[kearly]

Pretty good article that covers it.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miam ... 3130.story

Incognito claimed Martin was a willing and active participant in the verbal sparing, and never let on that he was hurt by it. Martin claims he participated in the "off-color joking" to fit in. A consulting psychologist told the investigators Martin's participation is a behavior victims of abuse commonly use.

Martin admitted to being sensitive to criticism because in junior high and high school he was a victim of bullying and it impacted his self-esteem and led to period bouts with depression as a teenager.

Martin claims the depression he experienced in high school resurfaced because of the treatment he experienced as a member of the Dolphins and admitted that on two occasions he thought of committing suicide in 2013.

The report admits they "struggled evaluating Martin's claims" because of his long standing mental health issues. However, claims made by the "Assistant trainer" and "Player A" backed up Martin's claims that Incognito was abusive. The report says Jerry and Pouncey, who starters on the Dolphins offensive line, followed Incognito's lead.

 

[brimsalabim]

The independent investigator said that this was very difficult because it was obvious that Martin was and is mentally challenged. In his findings Martin was all over the place. Bipolar like.

Any way I don’t really care what he determined. I don’t want any of these players (Martin included) on our roster. The Fins offensive line got markedly better after these two players exited the roster. That fact tells me all I need to know of them. The rest is for their moms to worry about.

 

[chris98251]

Three things stand out to me, Martin personality is out of place in a football locker room, he has trouble handling barbs and pressure. He appears fine untill he is the butt of things, so he essentially was part of it till he took it personnal.
Igcognito is a brash insentive person, likes throwing his weight around and being the guy leading things, Bully, well maybe, thats the new catch phrase for people that are aggressive and those that can't handle social difficulties or self esteem issues. I hardly feel that given the size of these men that it was the taking your lunch kind of bullieing.

I personnaly think it's a way over used term, people need to learn to adapt and think around problems and quit running for help because someone said something that hurt your feelings.

Were a hunter gatherer species, Hunters hunt, whether its food or for finacial predator tactics or weaker mental opponents.

The gatherers telling everyone they are special and that they can punch a bully card, or a lawsuit because they can't get themselves out of a situation or are too nieve or stupid to see they are in it should not be rewarded.

Thirdly a football team is not so different then a military unit, you have each others back, you depend on each other and you deal with stuff internally and not run to the Captain or the media and throw your teammate or fellow soldier under the bus.

Its what solidifys a team and unit, comrades in arms, Martin, Igcognito, Pouncey etc have been doing this most their lives and the unwritten code is there. The trainer and stuff there should be leadership in place to deflect and direct it, if that didn't happen then shame on the Dolphins and the staff.

After all, your not sleeping with each other, your preparing to go to battle with each other. You don't have to like one another, just fight together. Many teams have people that can't stand each other on them, but they get the job done.

 

[Phteven]

Here's the thing about military units. When you get kids with questionable moral compasses led by a douchebag who is on the wrong side of the ethical line, you end up with a broken culture like this. It's not a bridge club, and as was acknowledged in the report, the culture is coarse, vulgar and can't be compared to the culture within which most of us live and work. AND given all of that, this guy clearly went over board.

In the military, groups like this which are broken end up taking pictures of themselves pissing on prisoners, embarrassing their country, or in some cases, committing war crimes.

 

[chris98251]

Yeah maybe so, they are also the ones leading point and making impact, method be damned as directed, it's after the fact they are called on it, the tactics are appreciated at the time and the window is pushed. War of emotion and will. It's war and the goal is to win, unless you think we should have sent a 48 hour message to Japan to tell them what was coming in World War II that in itself was a method to win the emotional war and demoralize the country. That itself was the biggest attrosity commited in war ever on that scale and because we won it's not condemned. Thousands dead, fall out, long lasting consequences, birth defects etc.

Football not so different. You push the window on everything to gain an edge, if it works and you win it's never talked about, it's breaking rank and creating internal strife that is almost the worst scenerio that can happen, now you have no unity, trust or feelings of team or guys having your back.

When I played and coached and found a weak link I told my kids to hammer it, I took advanatge as a player and pushed harder waiting for them to break or be pulled from the game. Making someone feel inadequete or a failure on the feild is what you do, everyone celebrated us doing it to the Broncos.

 

[A London Hawk]

I would hope that none of our players threatened sexual abuse towards Bronco's player's mothers or sisters.

 

[cboom]

Whether or not Incognito is a racist, he is a dirtbag and a bully, and that report makes it very, very clear that some of his teammates and coaches are also dirtbags and bullies. This is a textbook example of how the culture of a workplace can be completely broken, and the people involved become complicit in behavior that EVERYONE knows is wrong.

The question is, how pervasive is this culture? I get the impression that the locker room culture in Miami is not unique. I sincerely hope that the Hawks do not engage in behavior like this. There is such a thing as good natured banter and some degree of smack talk. I see a clear distinction between that and this.

A dirtbag and bully in the game of football! Say it isn't so :roll: Give me a whole team full of dirtbags and bullies please. You may want to look into following golf. Their behavior might fit in better with your PC style.

 

[kf3339]

Man reading that report and this thread really makes me wonder how many posters have not actually been in a football locker room at the college or NFL level. As for me I was a photojournalism student in college and a pro photographer in Dallas covering the Cowboys in the 80's before I switched careers.

In my nearly 10 years that I was a photographer I was nearly always in or close to football locker rooms during those years. To me this football talk was extremely normal from my perspective. It doesn't seem right to some, but inside the locker room is a very different place and culture.

The only thing I took away from this whole issue is that Martin should never have stayed in football past high school if he was that sensitive in dealing with type A personalities, or was never taught how to stick up for himself in that environment. I think he has mental issues that clearly predate anything that happened on that Miami team.

I think Martin will struggle with any team he tries to play for at this point. As for Incognito I think some will be surprised with how fast he does get signed as a free agent. You may not like it, but many teams are not going to have a problem with Incognito and pretty much guarantee will take place this off season.

 

[Crabhawk]

Here's the thing about military units. When you get kids with questionable moral compasses led by a douchebag who is on the wrong side of the ethical line, you end up with a broken culture like this. It's not a bridge club, and as was acknowledged in the report, the culture is coarse, vulgar and can't be compared to the culture within which most of us live and work. AND given all of that, this guy clearly went over board.

In the military, groups like this which are broken end up taking pictures of themselves pissing on prisoners, embarrassing their country, or in some cases, committing war crimes.

Appreciate your comments in this thread. If people aren't going to pay attention to a thorough report by a special investigator who had virtually unlimited access to the players, coaches, documentation, and communications, and whose report basically concludes that Incognito et al are the World's Biggest Douchenozzles, they're probably not open to having their opinion changed regardless of what the evidence clearly shows.

Even if I were to ignore that he was kicked off of two college teams, bounced around the NFL, sexually harassed a girl at a golf tournament, etc, everything I needed to know about Incognito as a "man" is summed up in his treatment of the assistant trainer. That's who he is. That's his legacy. For all the Kumbaya singing in the Michael Sam thread in the NCAA forum, it's sort of hilarious to see the number of posters sort of just going with the flow in this thread.

On a side note, I got a good chuckle out of your username.

 

[kearly]

Man reading that report and this thread really makes me wonder how many posters have not actually been in a football locker room at the college or NFL level. As for me I was a photojournalism student in college and a pro photographer in Dallas covering the Cowboys in the 80's before I switched careers.

In my nearly 10 years that I was a photographer I was nearly always in or close to football locker rooms during those years. To me this football talk was extremely normal from my perspective. It doesn't seem right to some, but inside the locker room is a very different place and culture.

The only thing I took away from this whole issue is that Martin should never have stayed in football past high school if he was that sensitive in dealing with type A personalities, or was never taught how to stick up for himself in that environment. I think he has mental issues that clearly predate anything that happened on that Miami team.

I think Martin will struggle with any team he tries to play for at this point. As for Incognito I think some will be surprised with how fast he does get signed as a free agent. You may not like it, but many teams are not going to have a problem with Incognito and pretty much guarantee will take place this off season.

Every locker room can be a tough place in varying degrees, but the over-the-top racist and homophobic behavior by Incognito (against two different races) kinda ends the argument, IMO. Someone will have to explain to me how a big intimidating white man shouting the N-word repeatedly into the face of his black teammate is good for camaraderie.

I also think it's kind of a bullshit argument that because a certain abhorrent behavior isn't uncommon, it should be tolerated. That's not a dig on you personally, I've heard a lot of people citing this and I just think it's bullshit. If this kind of behavior is common in NFL locker rooms, then all the more reason for changes to be implemented.

Before today, I would have agreed with you about Incognito's employment prospects. After this, I'm not so sure. This has gotten way too ugly, it's the Chernobyl of locker room distractions. Not only will teams stay away from Incognito because of the racism but also because of the locker room risk. Distractions can get coaches and GMs fired. Incongnito is going to have a tough time getting an offer. His unrepentant attitude ("truth will bury Martin") isn't helping either.

I agree that Martin would have had a tough time with bullying, but I don't think outright bullying on this kind of scale is as common as you say. Rookie hazing, sure. But Incognito was a bit of a monster the way he went about it. He went above and beyond and took pride in "breaking Jmart". Not just him, but he actively recruited other OL to join in on the Martin bullying too. I would agree with you that Martin's NFL future is pretty murky too. I don't think he can go back to the Dolphins, some bridges have been burned there.

I think if a guy has the physical talent to play in the NFL he shouldn't be barred from playing because he can't handle a year plus of brutal bullying. I don't think that's fair nor is it smart. The NFL needs to install some minimum workplace environment standards (i.e. no racism or threats) to prevent future issues. There is no upside to bullying. Only downside, which is why many coaches, including Bill Walsh and Pete Carroll, have come out as being adamantly against it.

BTW, neuroscientists have collected quite a lot of data that suggest that stressed individuals generally perform much worse than non-stressed ones. Kind of hard to make your cost-controlled first contract draft talent play well when they are miserable at work every single day. Why do you think Pete blasts music at practice and even has a team psychologist on staff?

Hell, maybe we should be rooting for this neanderthal bullshit to continue. As long as Pete's here, our lack of it becomes a competitive advantage.

For all the Kumbaya singing in the Michael Sam thread in the NCAA forum, it's sort of hilarious to see the number of posters sort of just going with the flow in this thread.

That struck me as odd too.

 

[TXHawkFan]

Whether or not Incognito is a racist, he is a dirtbag and a bully, and that report makes it very, very clear that some of his teammates and coaches are also dirtbags and bullies. This is a textbook example of how the culture of a workplace can be completely broken, and the people involved become complicit in behavior that EVERYONE knows is wrong.

The question is, how pervasive is this culture? I get the impression that the locker room culture in Miami is not unique. I sincerely hope that the Hawks do not engage in behavior like this. There is such a thing as good natured banter and some degree of smack talk. I see a clear distinction between that and this.

A dirtbag and bully in the game of football! Say it isn't so :roll: Give me a whole team full of dirtbags and bullies please. You may want to look into following golf. Their behavior might fit in better with your PC style.

The Seahawks are the most physical football team in the NFL and I haven't seen the slightest evidence that they have this type of culture or team leaders the likes of Richie Incognito. Just the opposite, in fact. The Seahawks have a sports psychologist on staff, they monitor players' diets and sleep patterns, hold yoga and meditation sessions, and Pete Carroll preaches a mantra of positive thought and action. He wants players who buy into what they're doing completely so a selfish, divisive knucklehead like Incognito who constantly belittles and insults others is the last type of player he's looking for. The idea that a locker room full of bullies and dirtbags who spew non-stop racial and homophobic slurs and sexual innuendo involving sisters and mothers at fellow teammates and trainers is what helps make a team tough is idiotic.

Light hazing of rookies during training camp is fine but once the season starts and the 53 man roster is set then everyone should be considered brothers in arms working towards a common goal. The Miami offensive line was anything but that and the dysfunctional nature of that unit off the field led to poor play on the field. The rancid behavior of Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry never allowed that unit to bond together and it didn't make Martin or anyone else mentally tougher or better players, and its ridiculous to think that it would. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone that Miami's OL actually played better once Incognito and Martin were removed from the mix and the others presumedly were forced by the white hot spotlight on them to modify their behavior.

Richie Incognito is the anti-Seahawk. Jonathon Martin, on the other hand, is a player who might be able to thrive in a positive environment with a strong support system where he isn't constantly being psychologically battered.

 

[Milehighhawk]

The historical and/or status-quo arguments in this thread are laughable. Just because a behavior has been tolerated in the past or even current, doesn't justify that behavior. That type of reasoning is ridiculous. Just imagine if everyone felt that way in the first half going into the second half of the 20th century. We would still have the pleasure of white only drinking fountains, glass ceilings in the corporate workplace for women, and domestic violence in the home being passed off as simple "arguments" by the local police. Some serious perspective is lacking here.

If something is clearly wrong and from an objective standpoint (the independent investigators in this instance), it needs to change.

 

[brimsalabim]

In a system where every man's job performance also relies on that of the man beside him the weak link is going to get pushed. Did the Dolphins go about this correctly .. no but every one seems to be overlooking the "why" here. Jonathan Martin was not getting his job done and his teammates were upset about it. After he left line play improved. So right reason but wrong way to go about it by the fish folk. It is also clear from these texts that it escalated considerably after his fellow linemen found out that he had gone against them. Even If every thing that happened before this point had been unexpected it should have been fairly easy to call what happened next. With us or against us is football 101. The dolphins should have found away to trade Martin and get him out of their locker room right then and there.

 

[Smelly McUgly]

I love the "blame the victim" attitude here.

"Martin needs to get used to it, that's just how it is."

"Well, if she didn't want to get raped, why did she wear a low-cut dress like that?"

"You were stupid to park your car in that neighborhood; you should have known it would get stolen."

Typical blame-the-victim BS. If his teammates wanted him to play better, teach him, don't talk about what you're going to do to his sister.

Then there's another person snapping and shooting up a school or mall, and we're confused why. No wonder, considering how we as a culture view and treat the mentally ill or the victims of emotional, physical, sexual assault.

 

[kf3339]

Man reading that report and this thread really makes me wonder how many posters have not actually been in a football locker room at the college or NFL level. As for me I was a photojournalism student in college and a pro photographer in Dallas covering the Cowboys in the 80's before I switched careers.

In my nearly 10 years that I was a photographer I was nearly always in or close to football locker rooms during those years. To me this football talk was extremely normal from my perspective. It doesn't seem right to some, but inside the locker room is a very different place and culture.

The only thing I took away from this whole issue is that Martin should never have stayed in football past high school if he was that sensitive in dealing with type A personalities, or was never taught how to stick up for himself in that environment. I think he has mental issues that clearly predate anything that happened on that Miami team.

I think Martin will struggle with any team he tries to play for at this point. As for Incognito I think some will be surprised with how fast he does get signed as a free agent. You may not like it, but many teams are not going to have a problem with Incognito and pretty much guarantee will take place this off season.

Every locker room can be a tough place in varying degrees, but the over-the-top racist and homophobic behavior by Incognito (against two different races) kinda ends the argument, IMO. Someone will have to explain to me how a big intimidating white man shouting the N-word repeatedly into the face of his black teammate is good for camaraderie.

I also think it's kind of a bullshit argument that because a certain abhorrent behavior isn't uncommon, it should be tolerated. That's not a dig on you personally, I've heard a lot of people citing this and I just think it's bullshit. If this kind of behavior is common in NFL locker rooms, then all the more reason for changes to be implemented.

Before today, I would have agreed with you about Incognito's employment prospects. After this, I'm not so sure. This has gotten way too ugly, it's the Chernobyl of locker room distractions. Not only will teams stay away from Incognito because of the racism but also because of the locker room risk. Distractions can get coaches and GMs fired. Incongnito is going to have a tough time getting an offer. His unrepentant attitude ("truth will bury Martin") isn't helping either.

I agree that Martin would have had a tough time with bullying, but I don't think outright bullying on this kind of scale is as common as you say. Rookie hazing, sure. But Incognito was a bit of a monster the way he went about it. He went above and beyond and took pride in "breaking Jmart". Not just him, but he actively recruited other OL to join in on the Martin bullying too. I would agree with you that Martin's NFL future is pretty murky too. I don't think he can go back to the Dolphins, some bridges have been burned there.

I think if a guy has the physical talent to play in the NFL he shouldn't be barred from playing because he can't handle a year plus of brutal bullying. I don't think that's fair nor is it smart. The NFL needs to install some minimum workplace environment standards (i.e. no racism or threats) to prevent future issues. There is no upside to bullying. Only downside, which is why many coaches, including Bill Walsh and Pete Carroll, have come out as being adamantly against it.

BTW, neuroscientists have collected quite a lot of data that suggest that stressed individuals generally perform much worse than non-stressed ones. Kind of hard to make your cost-controlled first contract draft talent play well when they are miserable at work every single day. Why do you think Pete blasts music at practice and even has a team psychologist on staff?

Hell, maybe we should be rooting for this neanderthal bullshit to continue. As long as Pete's here, our lack of it becomes a competitive advantage.

For all the Kumbaya singing in the Michael Sam thread in the NCAA forum, it's sort of hilarious to see the number of posters sort of just going with the flow in this thread.

That struck me as odd too.

I do understand what you are saying Kearly. I'm only going by what I heard and saw with my own two eyes when I was a college and pro photographer in the 80's. The comments made on that report were really similar to what I heard at that time. I'm not excusing it; just pointing out that based on what I remember nothing seems that different to me. Guys using what we would call racist comments happened all of the time. It was not just black on black. Even Ray Lewis was a major bully in the Ravens locker room and he just retired. You can easily say that very similar things happened in that locker room and be right. There are many other examples that one could use. Not saying it's right, but that it's still the case. If the Dolphins are going to have to change their locker room policies and culture then the NFL will also have to have every other NFL team to do the same thing. I don't believe for one second that this is an isolated incident.

Perhaps you are right that Incognito's free agent prospects may have taken a major hit from this, but at the same token you would then have to say that Pouncy should warrant pretty much the same punishment or very close to it. I seriously doubt that will happen. So we will just have to wait and see, won't we.

I will be curious to see how the Michael Sam deal plays out as well. I remember an OL from Texas a couple years ago who had been convicted of having sex with his sister. Even though she said it was consentual he ended up in jail and had a sexual predator rap against him. Many people were hoping he would have a chance to get drafted and make a team, but no one drafted him or tried him out for the team. He had talent, but no one even gave him a shot.

The locker room is a really strange culture. That's all I'm saying.

 

[TXHawkFan]

Perhaps you are right that Incognito's free agent prospects may have taken a major hit from this, but at the same token you would then have to say that Pouncy should warrant pretty much the same punishment or very close to it. I seriously doubt that will happen. So we will just have to wait and see, won't we.

Incognito's prior reputation plus the perception that he was the ringleader will probably work against him when punishments are dealt out. Part of it will also depend on how honest Goodell believes players and coaches were with investigators since he's been known to bring the hammer down on those who he believed weren't being honest or cooperative. That's why I think that the assistant coach Turner will get the Greg Williams treatment since the report all but called him a liar.

I think Incognito is done. Teams will put up with a fair amount of baggage if a player is great or has unique skills and, at this point in his career, Incognito is an average player at best.

I know this kind of culture was common in the past but times change and there's no reason to continue with the status quo just because its always been that way. I have no inside knowledge of the Seahawks' locker room but from what I've read and heard Carroll and the team have:

-banned hazing
-placed an emphasis on helping rookies transition into the league
-hired an entire staff dedicated to helping players, including a sports pscyhologist
- instructed assistant coaches not to insult or demean players, only to point out and correct mistakes

If all this is true then that seems pretty damning evidence that Richie Incognito-style hazing and bullying is not necessary for bonding or helping young players to become mentally tough. Just the opposite, in fact, since Miami's dysfunctional OL actually played better once Incognito's toxic "leadership" was removed from the mix.

That's not to say Seattle's locker room was all Kumbaya, drum circles, and group hugs since there will always be some conflict when you put 53 very large Type A personalities together, but by most accounts they were a tight knit group this year and no one can accuse them of being mentally or physically soft.

 

[brimsalabim]

To some it up: incognito = bad guy good football player bad teammate. Martin = good guy bad football player. I don't think we want either one of them.

 

[Throwdown]

But incognito isn't even a good football player

 

[brimsalabim]

that does nothing to change my mind. I still wouldn't want either of them at this point.