Have the Seahawks drawn a single opposing holding penalty?

[Alexander]

That hawkblogger article is really great. One thing it brings up is all the pre-snap penalties the Hawks draw (false start, etc), and in those cases it is impossible to be bias and the ref must call it. But we still get reamed by the refs overall, going back to the Holmgren Super Bowl. You listen to Fox radio (why the hell is 950 playing this?) there is unmitigated HATE for Seattle. The NFL and refs are mostly East Coast. East Coast people have an extra hate gear and can fixate easily and stupidly. They don't hate LA, because it's a huge slummy shit-hole like one of their cites, but Seattle is a beautiful, smart, cultured city (like what NY puts so much effort and pretense into being but only marginally achieves).

That bolded little statement there got me thinking so I did some digging. I totaled up all the penalties for each game. I did not remove any penalties that were offsetting or declined as I wanted to see how many flags actually hit the ground for each team for the game. I also showed how many of the penalties for each team were pre-snap since as you mentioned (and I agree) it’s easy to see those as the play hasn’t developed so that I could get an actual idea of how many flags are being thrown from the time the ball is snapped to the QB.

Seattle (total # of penalties/# of those that are pre-snap)
Week 1: 9/6 (illegal formation 1, false start 1, delay of game 2, defensive offside’s 2)
Week 2: 13/5 (defensive offside’s 3, 12 men on the field, 1, false start 1)
Week 3: 5/2 (false start 2)
Week 4: 4/2 (false start 2)
Week 5: 10/5 (false start 1, delay of game 1, defensive holding 1, neutral zone infraction 1, offside’s on free kick 1)
Week 6: 8/0
Week 7: 6/3 (illegal shift 1, 12 men on the field 1, neutral zone infraction 1)
Week 8: 5/2 (illegal motion 1, false start 1)
Total 60/25 which leaves 35 penalties involving a live ball

Opponents (total # of penalties/# of those that are pre-snap)
Week 1: St Louis: 6/4 (false start 2, illegal motion 1, defensive offside’s 1)
Week 2: Green Bay: 9/4 (false start 1, defensive offside’s 2, delay of game 1)
Week 3: Chicago: 6/4 (neutral zone infraction 1, false start 1, delay of game 2)
Week 4: Detroit: 5/1 (defensive offside’s 1)
Week 5: Cincinnati: 7/2 (defensive offside’s 1, false start 1)
Week 6: Carolina: 5/5 (delay of game 1, false start 3, illegal substitution 1)
Week 7: San Francisco: 6/1 (delay of game 1)
Week 8: Dallas: 6/3 (illegal motion 1, false start 2)
Total: 50/24 which leaves 26 penalties involving a live ball

List that shows each week live ball penalties per team:
Week 1: Seattle 3, St Louis 2
Week 2: Seattle 8, Green Bay 5
Week 3: Seattle 3, Chicago 2
Week 4: Seattle 2, Detroit 4
Week 5: Seattle 5, Cincinnati 5
Week 6: Seattle 8, Carolina 0
Week 7: Seattle 3, San Francisco 5
Week 8: Seattle 3, Dallas 3
Total: Seattle 35. Opponents 26

The one game that is glaring to me is the week 6 Panthers where all 5 of their penalties were pre-snap and we got nailed on 8 penalties of which 0 were pre-snap. That game is the only real anomaly we have all season that makes zero sense to me. If you were to remove the week 6 stats then for the rest of the 7 games for the season it would be Seattle 28, Opponents 26 which is pretty fair. To me the refs overall minus the Panthers game are throwing flags fairly equally once the ball his snapped.

This is the kind of analysis we need. Thank you.

I wonder what this looks like for last year.

 

[seahawkfreak]

I don't have the feeling like we are getting all out screwed this year with the exception of the non holding calls on our opponents ( the holds with hands outside shoulders). I think there is something to be said that we are only 12th in penalties called on us with 57.4 ypg this year. We were 27th last year.

 

[hawknation2015]

And you can see the obvious grab of Bennett's jersey to impede his progress, as Dalton moves from the pocket, which again was not called:

 

[hawknation2015]

You got to love the way the LT throws up his hands after completing this "block."

It's sign language for "I just got away with blatant holding!"

 

[hawknation2015]

There has not been a single game this season where the opposing team had more penalties than the Seahawks.

There has only been ONE game this season where the opposition had more penalty yards than the Seahawks: vs. Detroit (25 yards vs. 37 yards -- a low penalty game).

The craziest penalty differentials were against GB and Cinci, the two most challenging games of the season:
@ Green Bay Packers -- 35 penalty yards vs. 92 for the Seahawks
@ Cincinnati Bengals -- 35 penalty yards vs. 112 for the Seahawks

According to this link, our opponents have had ZERO defensive holding or pass interference calls against them:
http://www.nflpenalties.com/team/seattl ... iew=logben

WTF!? Zero defensive holding or pass interference calls through eight games? How is that even possible?

 

[marko358]

WTF!? Zero defensive holding or pass interference calls through eight games? How is that even possible?

No reason to hold when you know our receiver runs 10 yards, stops and then turns around. :mrgreen:

I kid because I care.

 

[Bigbadhawk]

You got to love the way the LT throws up his hands after completing this "block."

It's sign language for "I just got away with blatant holding!"

All teams including our Seahawks constantly get away with uncalled penalties. You can thank Cary Williams and his craptastic game where he gave up 2 Pass interference calls for almost 60 yards for the penalty yardage discrepancy that you pointed out in a earlier post.

 

[hawknation2015]

Defensive/offensive holding and PI are the calls most dependent on the judgment on the referees. They can be devastating penalties, and so many appear to go uncalled and many are rarely even shown during the broadcast of the game. That affords the referees the liberty to choose which team to hammer. For there to be no defensive holding or PI calls against Seahawks' opponents is atrocious. For the 2nd consecutive year, our opponents are the best in the league at avoiding penalties.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

There's offensve holding on every play, in the trenches--the refs just call the blatant ones, or a certain pct. Most of the time you can't see it on tv. They're supposed to call it evenly, but it's been clear for years they screw Seattle. They also do us on plays that kill our drives, or sustain opponent drives. With PI, you can see it obviously, but not with holding, and they can get away with it. There are a few famous bad calls (not just penalties) against the Hawks--one notorious blown call cost Dennis Erickson his hc job.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Bengals have been called for 11 penalties through 7 games, last year they were called for 15 total for the whole year. Our guys need to hold a little bit better to be considered an elite O-line.

Another weird thing is they get called 9 times at home, and only 2 for away games.....

 

[VivaEfrenHerrera]

Ah, the good 'ole penalty topic. Like crack to me -- can't stay away from it!

In a different thread after Week 3, I made this little chart. It illustrates how teams seen to have fewer penalties than their own season average when they happen to run up against the Hawks.

So I might as well update the thing...

Team --------- Avg penalties--------Penalties vs. Hawks
STL -------------- 6.67 ----------------- 4
GB --------------- 9.33 ----------------- 6
CHI -------------- 8.67 ----------------- 6

DET-------------- 6.88 -------------------4
CIN -------------- 7.86 ------------------ 7
CAR ------------- 6.14 ------------------ 5
SF --------------- 6.25 ------------------ 4
DAL ------------- 7.29 ------------------ 5

(Note: First three games are based on Week 3 numbers. Now, the Rams avg. 8 penalties (up quite a bit) while the Packers and Bears average 7.29 and 7.43 respectively (both down from Week 3). )

So, every single team has has fewer penalties when facing Seattle than they normally do. Every team.

I don't have enough statistics machinery to know whether or how significant that really is. But wouldn't you think that about it's about a 50/50 proposition whether you play above or below your average in a case like this. (After all, that's how averages are supposed to work, no?)

 

[Hawkpower]

You got to love the way the LT throws up his hands after completing this "block."

It's sign language for "I just got away with blatant holding!"

All teams including our Seahawks constantly get away with uncalled penalties. You can thank Cary Williams and his craptastic game where he gave up 2 Pass interference calls for almost 60 yards for the penalty yardage discrepancy that you pointed out in a earlier post.

0 PI's or defensive holds in our favor IN 8 GAMES!!!!! .......last in penalties in our favor for TWO YEARS IN A ROW doesn't make your statement untrue, just completely pointless in regards to the argument at hand.

Sure we get away with stuff like every team does...but why do our opponents get away with so much more every. single. year?

Thanks

 

[SoCalSeahawk]

The Seahawks have benefited from exactly two in-play opposing defensive penalties all year. A roughing the passer v Rams and a facemask v 49ers. The rest of the league averages two per game. In other words, opposing defenses can do whatever they want against our offense and never get called. Maybe it's not Bevell...

 

[Laloosh]

Ah, the good 'ole penalty topic. Like crack to me -- can't stay away from it!

In a different thread after Week 3, I made this little chart. It illustrates how teams seen to have fewer penalties than their own season average when they happen to run up against the Hawks.

So I might as well update the thing...

Team --------- Avg penalties--------Penalties vs. Hawks
STL -------------- 6.67 ----------------- 4
GB --------------- 9.33 ----------------- 6
CHI -------------- 8.67 ----------------- 6

DET-------------- 6.88 -------------------4
CIN -------------- 7.86 ------------------ 7
CAR ------------- 6.14 ------------------ 5
SF --------------- 6.25 ------------------ 4
DAL ------------- 7.29 ------------------ 5

(Note: First three games are based on Week 3 numbers. Now, the Rams avg. 8 penalties (up quite a bit) while the Packers and Bears average 7.29 and 7.43 respectively (both down from Week 3). )

So, every single team has has fewer penalties when facing Seattle than they normally do. Every team.

I don't have enough statistics machinery to know whether or how significant that really is. But wouldn't you think that about it's about a 50/50 proposition whether you play above or below your average in a case like this. (After all, that's how averages are supposed to work, no?)

It is interesting. I'd say that knowing what kinds of penalties they usually have and which ones aren't called as often against Seattle would be even more interesting. We do look for patterns, we humans.

 

[KiwiHawk]

There's offensve holding on every play, in the trenches--the refs just call the blatant ones, or a certain pct. Most of the time you can't see it on tv. They're supposed to call it evenly, but it's been clear for years they screw Seattle. They also do us on plays that kill our drives, or sustain opponent drives. With PI, you can see it obviously, but not with holding, and they can get away with it. There are a few famous bad calls (not just penalties) against the Hawks--one notorious blown call cost Dennis Erickson his hc job.

Seattle went on to lose to Denver - in Denver - that year, so our record, when tie-breaking procedures are considered, still would have kept us out of the playoffs even had we beaten the Jets. That play, and that game, was irrelevant.

It was a bad call - inexcusable - but it didn't cost Erickson his job. His poor coaching cost him his job, with Seattle and again with San Francisco.

 

[peppersjap]

We have to have the whiniest fan base ever! We are 4-4 because of performance, not because of the ref's! Post's like this and then stupid petition to ban Buck and Aikman are what makes our fan base look so bad.

 

[jammerhawk]

Maybe we are whinny but that still doesn't help us understand how it is likely that there isn't some probable observational bias by refereeing crews working against the Hawks, as it is a fact that opponents all have fewer penalties than their statistical average number called against them when playing the Hawks. The offensive holding calls that opponents get away with and mugging that occurs with our receivers is really unequal.

As well I urge those who watch to watch how the spots are made for the Hawks early in games, the zebras are creatively interpreting spot positions rather curiously and not in Seattle's favor either. The creative spotting seems to end in the 2nd half of games.

Someone who says I'm a conspiracy theorist, needs to explain the issue of why spastically every other team in the league has fewer than their statistical average number of penalties called against them when playing Seattle and why certain penalties are not called against them when playing Seattle.

After XL, and quite a few other rather bad calls I don't accept that there isn't 'observational bias' at work.

 

[Hasselbeck]

You got to love the way the LT throws up his hands after completing this "block."

It's sign language for "I just got away with blatant holding!"

All teams including our Seahawks constantly get away with uncalled penalties. You can thank Cary Williams and his craptastic game where he gave up 2 Pass interference calls for almost 60 yards for the penalty yardage discrepancy that you pointed out in a earlier post.

And both of those PI calls were terrible.

I think the discrepancy in why no defensive holding/PI calls have happened for us is we don't take many shots down the field with the protection issues. I'd love to see us send Tyler or Jimmy deep more and chuck it up for a 50/50 ball or possible DPI.

 

[Uncle Si]

Seattle's broken play offense also leads to a lot of no call holds I feel.

But to me it just says not a lot of penalties are called during Seattle games overall then.

If they are 19th in the league that means they are bottom half in the league in having calls go against them. Which means there are 18 teams that get more penalties. If they were truly bias. Why not call more penalties on Seattle.

I think there is more to it. And a lot of different views

Bias can only be affected in one way? Yikes to that logic...

Being purposefully deflective in the face of facts doesn't help push the discussion, only an agenda.

 

[daveyoung52]

Correct me if i'm being really stupid,but is Aaron Rodgers God and therefore given free plays for big yards when flags have been thrown and it should have been blown dead,or is that just against the Seahawks ?