Washed up Pete - The God Named Wilson - Ramblings of a Madfan

LeaveLynchAlone

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The Pete is washed up narrative is certainly deeply ingrained here, but just maybe he is more of a wizard than many here are willing to give him credit for.

I will continue to believe Pete was the source of the magic of the Russell Wilson era and will continue to be the source for the new magic that awaits -- he gives players and coaches the leeway to challenge and grow and develop.

Russell would likely have never even had the chance to start let alone play in the league. Or he may have done poorly enough early on to have washed out like so many talents do.

Pete eased Russell into the pro game and with time loosened the reins for him to develop his own possibilities as a leader of the team - in the end Russell ran away from the necessary controls all players and even coaches have.

Some end up using the lead to strangle themselves - Russell used it to promote Team Russell and the expense of the organization. At some point Russell stopped believing Go Seahawks!!! even as he was saying it.

Russell's words tasted of saccharin the painful sweetness belied the truth of being a brand first and not a leader first. This was somewhat true from the beginning, but I tended to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I can imagine that if Russell does not deflate his head a bit, he will fare no better with the Broncos or any other team he ends up with.

I didn't want Russell gone but now that he is gone, I see amazing possibilities that had been limited by Mr. Unlimited.

Pete is the perfect coach to create change within a culture of positivity and the development of people far beyond the game.

And for the record -- I don't hate Russell -- I just see that his ordained hubris is simply a tragicomedy now with scene II opening in the mountains of Colorado.

I will definitely root for him to truly change (not expected) or fall hard (believable and probably the only likely way for change to occur).

May Russell and his brand enjoy the sweet melancholy of reminiscing on a time past where the naivete of youth and of want and of need is but a distant visage where the push of having to overcome the impossible was the necessary push for him to actually overcome the impossible.
 

TwistedHusky

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I don't think that Pete was ever a competent coach outside of talent evaluation and development. Maybe at some point in his college career. But he was almost always a gameday liability, even at USC.

His entire career almost seems rootedon out-athleting the competition. He was a tremendous judge of talent and an incredible talent developer. And he was a great motivator.

He might still be a great motivator. But the rest of pretty much done. He is a spent, dried, husk of a coach now that is going to play Ty Willingham ball until he is forced to give up his seat.

And Ty Ball works, it keeps games close and lets you create an illusion you are competitive as an opponent. So I don't doubt the arguments I get after his near .500 record are going to be about how close the losses are, and how this is a sign he is on the right track or need more time.

Wilson had his weaknesses. Hell, I was a 'Wilson hater' for that. But Pete was the albatross holding the team back, not Wilson.
 

Spin Doctor

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I don't think that Pete was ever a competent coach outside of talent evaluation and development. Maybe at some point in his college career. But he was almost always a gameday liability, even at USC.

His entire career almost seems rootedon out-athleting the competition. He was a tremendous judge of talent and an incredible talent developer. And he was a great motivator.

He might still be a great motivator. But the rest of pretty much done. He is a spent, dried, husk of a coach now that is going to play Ty Willingham ball until he is forced to give up his seat.

And Ty Ball works, it keeps games close and lets you create an illusion you are competitive as an opponent. So I don't doubt the arguments I get after his near .500 record are going to be about how close the losses are, and how this is a sign he is on the right track or need more time.

Wilson had his weaknesses. Hell, I was a 'Wilson hater' for that. But Pete was the albatross holding the team back, not Wilson.
Yes and no. Pete was pretty innovative with his approach on cover-3 when he came back into the league. His scheme spread like wildfire and it wasn't until 2017 that teams figured out how to crack it consistently. Though, since then I'd argue that he's been playing catch up with the league trends.

At this point though i'm not sure what he brings to the franchise anymore. He's a zombie at this point, we should have cut bait when we had the chance.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Pete is a very successful coach, there's no arguing that point. Dude's won Championships at every levels.

But IMO the way he wins has a very finite shelf life. He uses his charisma, motivational techniques and ability to lead through positivity and sense of worth towards a group goal to attract the best athletes to his program.

He did it at USC where he had 5 star recruits 2-3 deep at every position for a decade, and he did the same thing here with the help of Schneider early on identifying and acquiring superior athletes so he could out bully and athlete the rest of the league.

But as we've seen, that style erodes over time and lessens in appeal and potency. Happened at USC, eventually he wasn't getting all the 5 star recruits, and he started losing.

That's where we're at now with Pete, the downhill slope of his coaching arc.
 

scutterhawk

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I think many here are selling Pete Carroll short...WAAAY Short.
When I said Pete was "Old School", It wasn't a critique.
Sometimes "Old School" used the right way can still produce championships.
Take a fresh young Marshawn Lynch and pair him up with an in his prime 'Scrambling' Russell Wilson, give them an even AVERAGE O-line, and teams around the League would play hell trying to stop them.
"OLD SCHOOL PETE" did that...It's a system that still CAN DO.
 

Frozenropers1

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Pete’s biggest shortcoming is his loyalty to his people. That is both good and bad. I think a large part of our problems the past 4 seasons have been Pete’s loyalty to KNJ. I am excited to see the defense being run by Hurtt. love former D-Line coaches as DC’s.
 

Palmegranite

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Pete is a very successful coach, there's no arguing ...
But IMO the way he wins has a very finite shelf life. He uses his charisma, motivational techniques and ability to lead through positivity ...
But as we've seen, that style erodes over time and lessens in appeal and potency.
Telltale sign...players are reading books in the locker room during meetings and pep-talks. (heard about this from a few years back, but of course I wasn't there, and can't verify. )
 

jammerhawk

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If there was ever were two posts that set out the respective view points of the two sides of the ProPete Anti-Pete debate in stark juxtaposition the first two posts which are both well written are them.

The AP guys will never be convinced PC is anything but a washed up old fool while PP others look to his long career and previous success as reason for thinking he hasn't lost his mojo. Either way he's here still and in charge, yet has acknowledged his arrogance defensively and has made some rather significant changes signalling a new direction.

For me I will wait and see but time is running out on PC and he certainly has to know he needs to get this right. If he doesn't his history will include the fact he traded RW and was unable to replace him successfully. That reality will certainly be a negative.
 

Tusc2000

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It boggles the mind to think that we are one year removed from a 12-4 season, one in which our star QB was injured -- and people keep calling for Pete's head.

In the end, it comes down to results, and Pete has delivered. In the last decade, the Seahawks have won more games than any other team in the NFL, except the Patriots.

Want to talk Super Bowls? Only the Patriots have even PLAYED in more than 2 Super Bowls in the past 12 years. The reality is the majority of NFL teams haven't even reached the Super Bowl in the last 12 years.

Super Bowl wins are hard to get, and in the past 12 years, since Pete started coaching the Seahawks, only ONE TEAM IN THE NFL has had multiple SB wins.

True, we haven't been to a Super Bowl in a few years, but again, they are really hard to get to. Here's how the past 12 years have looked since Pete took over at Seattle:

SUPER BOWL WINS (10 different teams in 12 years):
New England 3
SEATTLE 1
LA Rams 1
Tampa Bay 1
Kansas City 1
Philly 1
Denver 1
Baltimore 1
NY Giants 1
Green Bay 1

SUPER BOWL APPEARANCES:
New England 5
SEATTLE 2
SF 2
LA Rams 2
Denver 2
Kansa City 2
Cincinnati 1
Tampa Bay 1
Philly 1
Atlanta 1
Carolina 1
Baltimore 1
NY Giants 1
Green Bay 1
Pittsburgh 1

Pete's going to be here for a while. You may not like close calls, but that's how he rolls, The goal is to win games. I'm good with that.
 

TwistedHusky

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If the goal is to win games, you OK with pushing to get rid of him when he fails at that then?

And if so, what is your red line?
 

Jville

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It boggles the mind to think that we are one year removed from a 12-4 season, one in which our star QB was injured -- and people keep calling for Pete's head.

In the end, it comes down to results, and Pete has delivered. In the last decade, the Seahawks have won more games than any other team in the NFL, except the Patriots.

Want to talk Super Bowls? Only the Patriots have even PLAYED in more than 2 Super Bowls in the past 12 years. The reality is the majority of NFL teams haven't even reached the Super Bowl in the last 12 years.

Super Bowl wins are hard to get, and in the past 12 years, since Pete started coaching the Seahawks, only ONE TEAM IN THE NFL has had multiple SB wins.

True, we haven't been to a Super Bowl in a few years, but again, they are really hard to get to. Here's how the past 12 years have looked since Pete took over at Seattle:

SUPER BOWL WINS (10 different teams in 12 years):
New England 3
SEATTLE 1
LA Rams 1
Tampa Bay 1
Kansas City 1
Philly 1
Denver 1
Baltimore 1
NY Giants 1
Green Bay 1

SUPER BOWL APPEARANCES:
New England 5
SEATTLE 2
SF 2
LA Rams 2
Denver 2
Kansa City 2
Cincinnati 1
Tampa Bay 1
Philly 1
Atlanta 1
Carolina 1
Baltimore 1
NY Giants 1
Green Bay 1
Pittsburgh 1

Pete's going to be here for a while. You may not like close calls, but that's how he rolls, The goal is to win games. I'm good with that.

Pete and John and Jody have all reaffirmed that now that the Covid disruption is more or less behind us, they are back on track with the program Paul Allen hired Pete to install in Seattle.

For those in the know, Good Times ahead.

I'm all in!
 

Spin Doctor

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r removed from a 12-4 season, one in which our star QB was injured -- and people keep calling for Pete's head.

In the end, it comes down to results, and Pete has delivered. In the last decade, the Seahawks have won more games than any other team in the NFL, except the Patriots.
It boggles the mind to think that we are one year removed from a 12-4 season, one in which our star QB was injured -- and people keep calling for Pete's head.

In the end, it comes down to results, and Pete has delivered. In the last decade, the Seahawks have won more games than any other team in the NFL, except the Patriots.

Want to talk Super Bowls? Only the Patriots have even PLAYED in more than 2 Super Bowls in the past 12 years. The reality is the majority of NFL teams haven't even reached the Super Bowl in the last 12 years.

Super Bowl wins are hard to get, and in the past 12 years, since Pete started coaching the Seahawks, only ONE TEAM IN THE NFL has had multiple SB wins.

True, we haven't been to a Super Bowl in a few years, but again, they are really hard to get to. Here's how the past 12 years have looked since Pete took over at Seattle:

SUPER BOWL WINS (10 different teams in 12 years):
New England 3
SEATTLE 1
LA Rams 1
Tampa Bay 1
Kansas City 1
Philly 1
Denver 1
Baltimore 1
NY Giants 1
Green Bay 1

SUPER BOWL APPEARANCES:
New England 5
SEATTLE 2
SF 2
LA Rams 2
Denver 2
Kansa City 2
Cincinnati 1
Tampa Bay 1
Philly 1
Atlanta 1
Carolina 1
Baltimore 1
NY Giants 1
Green Bay 1
Pittsburgh 1

Pete's going to be here for a while. You may not like close calls, but that's how he rolls, The goal is to win games. I'm good with that.
And how long are we going to hang onto the past? No other team has lost more in the playoffs than Seattle since 2015. Our last Super Bowl appearance is now almost 10 years in the past now. If we don't make the playoffs this year it will be 6 years without a single playoff win -- that single win coming against a 40 year old McCown, a career backup QB who wasn't great in the first place. Our only wins post 2014 came against Teddy Bridgewater (a game we should have lost, but Blair Walsh did us a solid), a Matt Stafford with an injured throwing arm, and sprained ankle. Realistically we should only have only two playoff wins in a 7 year span. We haven't been to an NFC championship since 2014, since then just about every power player in the NFC has been.

Does this seem like a franchise that is going places? No. In fact since 2015 our defense has declined almost every single year. Since 2015 we've missed the playoffs 2 out of the 6 years, now it's looking to be two in a row, or 3 for 7. The team has been steadily declining and bleeding under Pete Carroll's leadership for awhile now. He also just chased our franchise QB off of the roster.

People keep talking about his Super Bowls, but since then we've been floundering and under performing, 2015 especially. By DVOA standards the 2015 Seahawks were one of the highest rated teams ever. We had a top defense and offense, yet we were about to lose to the Teddy Bridgewater lead Vikings. Carroll is now 70 years old, about to be 71, you think the man has 3 years to rebuild this roster? By that time he'd be the oldest coach to ever coach a game in the NFL.

It's time to let go of the past. Carroll is finished in the NFL as a top tier coach. It's like a boiling frog, most of you don't realize the decline and you're wondering how the hell we got here. We got here due to mismanagement of our resources and extremely questionable tactics brought on by even more questionable hires. That is how we got here, and quite frankly it would have led to the termination of many guys across the NFL -- especially since Carroll is responsible for not only the coaching aspect but the FO aspect.
 

John63

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I guess we will find out soon enough, as in this year. remember PC said not a rebuild so we should be in the playoffs, barring major injuries.
 

Jville

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I think some here can make a distinction between the before, during and after covid years. Impacts encountered in free agency and draft quality and OTA's and in season practices are recognized by some and missed by others.

The posts and replies suggest such a premise.
 

TwistedHusky

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Jville,

I am hoping you are right. Nobody wants to just see their team become the Lions or the old Browns.

Yes, I am hoping that if we cannot be a playoff team or a competitive GOOD football team then we will be terrible. Not because I want us to turn into a complete loser but because I know that Pete's system requires a lot of draft picks and we will need to bank good picks for years to have a chance to restock the cupboards.

The frustration is that every step of this has been predicted, this slow slide isn't a shock, neither is Wilson leaving. The whole thing is transpiring just like the horror story many predicted. Of COURSE I would prefer to be wrong, but this is happening in almost a disappointing paint by numbers fashion.

We are following the outcomes everyone has been warning about, with almost perfect precision - with the rare exception of the 12-4 season.

Guys like Pitt and Fade have been warning of each bump before we hit it and I've almost mapped this terrible fall since 2 years ago. Banging on the table was not going to change anything, but it was cathartic to at least vent as we watched the whole thing fall apart while we were constantly being assured we were going to be back in the thick of things again.

At this point there is nothing to save, so it hardly matters. It isn't like a bad decision could hurt us worse.

So hoping you are right and waiting to see how the draft shakes out is all way got right now.
 

Jville

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Jville,

I am hoping you are right. Nobody wants to just see their team become the Lions or the old Browns.

Yes, I am hoping that if we cannot be a playoff team or a competitive GOOD football team then we will be terrible. Not because I want us to turn into a complete loser but because I know that Pete's system requires a lot of draft picks and we will need to bank good picks for years to have a chance to restock the cupboards.

The frustration is that every step of this has been predicted, this slow slide isn't a shock, neither is Wilson leaving. The whole thing is transpiring just like the horror story many predicted. Of COURSE I would prefer to be wrong, but this is happening in almost a disappointing paint by numbers fashion.

We are following the outcomes everyone has been warning about, with almost perfect precision - with the rare exception of the 12-4 season.

Guys like Pitt and Fade have been warning of each bump before we hit it and I've almost mapped this terrible fall since 2 years ago. Banging on the table was not going to change anything, but it was cathartic to at least vent as we watched the whole thing fall apart while we were constantly being assured we were going to be back in the thick of things again.

At this point there is nothing to save, so it hardly matters. It isn't like a bad decision could hurt us worse.

So hoping you are right and waiting to see how the draft shakes out is all way got right now.

In my eyes, we are just now coming out of a two year covid disruption. It hasn't been business as usual. It may be that Pitt and Fade don't make that distinction in arriving at their views. Pete's program has announced a return to its four to five year turnover process ..... with exceptions for key field leaders.

Although it is not reflected by posts and responses in this particular thread, there is a perceivable difference between outcome centrist views and process concentric views. Just as there is a perceivable difference between stat centrist views and film centrist view. Our forum views are certainly not a monolith.

There are lessons to be learned from observing processes that produce both win and loss outcomes from both competing teams. There are multiple stages of a team building process. There is the season review followed by coaching changes. Next is the spectacle of free agency. The draft and rookie free agency. OTA's followed by preseason. The regular season. The sudden death playoffs.

Thru it all, players are coming and going and coaches are making adjustments. For me, the real story of any team is told thru a year long process of moving thru seasonal stages of change. It's a great process that also sheds light on what the future might hold.
 
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Rainger

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OMG come on, it was the team that PETE built that won the SB for Seattle and almost a second had some injuries and a pass behind a receiver at the 2 yard line not given NE another Lombardi.

It wasnt RW who won the SB for Seattle. He was one of a TEAM, but in the last few years RW saw the letter I in team.
 

GemCity

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It’s almost as if this fan base, or at least this forum, doesn’t think the HC or GM had anything to do with the failures this team endured.
No doubt they put a helluva run together. Incredible drafting. Diamond in the rough type stuff. An argument could be made that they set the bar.
But….Russ was a huge part of that as well.

I don’t believe that any one player, QB or not, has as much control or effect on a team than the HC and GM.

From what I’m reading here, Pete’s going to tear it up this season (we’re reloading right?) and Russ will struggle.

Russ will have one of his top 3, best statistical seasons and the Seahawks will fail to make the playoffs. I don’t know how far Denver will go as I believe they are in what’s become the best division. Opinion ofc…

But…I’m sure you’ll know by mid-season that Russ is more than capable of being a top tier QB and that the bottleneck lay squarely on Pete’s shoulders. Pete’s model worked before and it can again. But the Russ critique here is crazy..,
 
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TwistedHusky

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Pete has such a miniscule chance of 'tearing it up this season' that it isn't worth mentioning.

And I think most fans are aware that Pete was more the problem than Wilson. Especially this 'careening into senility' version of Pete that comes with most of the weaknesses but seems to have lost most of his strengths.

The worry is that we bob at or near .500 while tossing overboard most of what we have of value (and future draft picks) in order to produce even this record. Or that we hamstring ourselves with overpaid contracts to JAGs so that we have little cap room, few draft picks, and nothing in the cupboard when we are finally rid of Pete.

And that all of the above will create a problem getting a decent replacement coach/GM when the time (hopefully soon) comes. Or god forbid, Pete installs one of his kids/relatives/friends/acolytes to continue to infest this team for years after he is gone.
 

John63

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OMG come on, it was the team that PETE built that won the SB for Seattle and almost a second had some injuries and a pass behind a receiver at the 2 yard line not given NE another Lombardi.

It wasnt RW who won the SB for Seattle. He was one of a TEAM, but in the last few years RW saw the letter I in team.
pass behind the wr wow talk about revisionist history the pass was not behind the wr. try looking at it. As to the letter I, that's your opinion but the facts don't support it. Always fun how fans turn on players at the drop of a dime but expect absolute loyalty for them.
 

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