Schneider Doesn't Deserve This Much Hate

[Rat]

Huge pet peeve for me is whenever the "Fire _____" topics make their cycle is when people are not offering a replacement. The whole point of firing the current guy is to get a new guy in here!

Teams fire coaches and executives all the time and then undergo an extensive search for their replacement.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I’m willing to give JS two more draft classes: 2025 and 2026.

That’s it.

If JS doesn’t fix this abomination of an offensive line then you gotta cut ties.

What really irks me about JS is he is on record saying offensive lineman are overpaid.

What kind of BS is that??

The guy just does not value offensive lineman.

He's kind of right.

Interior offensive linemen are a little bit overpaid. The market went bonkers for them.

Damien Lewis is a pretty good guard. Paying almost 20 million a year for a Damien Lewis is burdensome, to me, because it doesn't go quite as far toward entirely fixing an offensive line as it would seem. We know this because we had him here for years.

Is it a little bit annoying in hindsight to hear that from JS considering how the OL looks currently? Yeah, for sure. But at the end of the day... he's kind of right. I'd rather draft guards in the third and get them on rookie contracts and trust the coaching staff to develop the highly-regarded guard prospects that we draft. Haynes was touted and surely he was signed off on by the coaching staff prior to the pick being made.

I'm still not convinced that this is more JS than it is coaching. John has drafted 2 near-elite linemen since 2022 at the highest value OL spots, pity it is that one of them ended up having a spaghetti knee (which was clean when he came into the league) and grabbed one of the most highly-regarded guard prospects in the entire 2024 class. I'd argue that based on that, based on the film from this year, and based on us being on right tackle #4 which is really killing us, that John's personnel decisions on the OL aren't entirely indefensible.

 

[pittpnthrs]

He's kind of right.

Interior offensive linemen are a little bit overpaid. The market went bonkers for them.

Damien Lewis is a pretty good guard. Paying almost 20 million a year for a Damien Lewis is burdensome, to me, because it doesn't go quite as far toward entirely fixing an offensive line as it would seem. We know this because we had him here for years.

Is it a little bit annoying in hindsight to hear that from JS considering how the OL looks currently? Yeah, for sure. But at the end of the day... he's kind of right. I'd rather draft guards in the third and get them on rookie contracts and trust the coaching staff to develop the highly-regarded guard prospects that we draft. Haynes was touted and surely he was signed off on by the coaching staff prior to the pick being made.

I'm still not convinced that this is more JS than it is coaching. John has drafted 2 near-elite linemen since 2022 at the highest value OL spots, pity it is that one of them ended up having a spaghetti knee (which was clean when he came into the league) and grabbed one of the most highly-regarded guard prospects in the entire 2024 class. I'd argue that based on that, based on the film from this year, and based on us being on right tackle #4 which is really killing us, that John's personnel decisions on the OL aren't entirely indefensible.

I'm not disagreeing or debating you here Mael as I like the premise, but the problem with drafting a need in the 3rd round is that your getting exactly that,,,,,3rd round talent. Yeah I know a lot of lineman have worked out just fine in that area, but a lot don't either. In a perfect world, the coaching staff can coach those guys to be good and serviceable, but we know we don't live in a perfect world.

I'm with you in that I hate paying guards a bunch of money, but i'm also tired of seeing the product put on the field and it's not like the team hasen't gone through multiple Oline coaches either. So what do you do? I'm not really sure at this point. Do you draft early and pay out if the pick works out, or do you spend on other positions and hope they can be coached up? I don't know. I'm glad i'm not making those decisions.

 

[James in PA]

John needs to get super aggressive and throw his stupid philosophy out the window regarding interior linemen. Either you draft them higher or you pay the going rate in free agency. Or both. If not, you're going to be left out in the cold, scrounging for scraps once again.

 

[oldhawkfan]

Maybe I’m remembering this wrong, but wasn’t Schneider given control over the draft prior to the 2022 draft? Until then it was my understanding that Pete had the final say. Jody Allen changed that structure a bit to give John the final decision. The ‘22 and ‘23 drafts were the best drafts they have had since probably 2012.

 

[hox]

Is it a little bit annoying in hindsight to hear that from JS considering how the OL looks currently? Yeah, for sure. But at the end of the day... he's kind of right. I'd rather draft guards in the third and get them on rookie contracts and trust the coaching staff to develop the highly-regarded guard prospects that we draft. Haynes was touted and surely he was signed off on by the coaching staff prior to the pick being made.

Why not draft them in the second? ZC was picked in the second round, 52 overall. Is ZC living up to 2nd round status? No.

Meanwhile in that same class, the Bills drafted O'Cyrus Torrence, 59th overall. Torrence was considered one of the top guard prospects in the 2023 draft.

From the internet:

He has started all 17 games he's played in, indicating that he quickly became a key part of the Bills' offensive line. The fact that Torrence has played and started in every game shows remarkable consistency and durability for a rookie offensive lineman. He's listed at 6'5" tall and 347 lbs, which are impressive measurements for an NFL guard.
https://www.buffalobills.com/team/players-roster/o-cyrus-torrence/
The fact that Torrence has started every game as a rookie is generally considered a positive indicator of his performance.

So we could have had Torrence, a day 1 starter, on the cheap. No need to pay 20 mil.

Haynes, on the other hand, according to the coaches, has bad technique and gets overpowered. This sounds like a scouting issue vs a development issue to me.

 

[toffee]

Why not draft them in the second? ZC was picked in the second round, 52 overall. Is ZC living up to 2nd round status? No.

Meanwhile in that same class, the Bills drafted O'Cyrus Torrence, 59th overall. Torrence was considered one of the top guard prospects in the 2023 draft.

From the internet:

He has started all 17 games he's played in, indicating that he quickly became a key part of the Bills' offensive line. The fact that Torrence has played and started in every game shows remarkable consistency and durability for a rookie offensive lineman. He's listed at 6'5" tall and 347 lbs, which are impressive measurements for an NFL guard.
https://www.buffalobills.com/team/players-roster/o-cyrus-torrence/
The fact that Torrence has started every game as a rookie is generally considered a positive indicator of his performance.

So we could have had Torrence, a day 1 starter, on the cheap. No need to pay 20 mil.

Haynes, on the other hand, according to the coaches, has bad technique and gets overpowered. This sounds like a scouting issue vs a development issue to me.

I had Torrence on most of mick drafts.

 

[Ozzy]

Maybe I’m remembering this wrong, but wasn’t Schneider given control over the draft prior to the 2022 draft? Until then it was my understanding that Pete had the final say. Jody Allen changed that structure a bit to give John the final decision. The ‘22 and ‘23 drafts were the best drafts they have had since probably 2012.

I don't know that this was ever officially confirmed but I believe its the case as well.

 

[NoGain]

How many Hawk offensive linemen have signed their second contract with the team in the PC/JS era?

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

How many Hawk offensive linemen have signed their second contract with the team in the PC/JS era?

One.

 

[Shane Falco]

Maybe I’m remembering this wrong, but wasn’t Schneider given control over the draft prior to the 2022 draft? Until then it was my understanding that Pete had the final say. Jody Allen changed that structure a bit to give John the final decision. The ‘22 and ‘23 drafts were the best drafts they have had since probably 2012.

To be fair, and not to pile on against JS but those two drafts have 3 1st rnd and 4 2nd rnd picks, while 2 of those 1st rnd picks are in the top 10. It wouldn't be good if those drafts weren't better than the drafts since 2012.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

One.

Only one is pretty sad…

 

[hox]

I had Torrence on most of mick drafts.

Picking Charbonnet over Torrence was another botched pick, supposedly in a draft where JS had "more control" of the draft.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

Only one is pretty sad…

Basically says they either weren’t worth a second contract, as in poor play and development, or John thought it was too expensive but the team will trade 1st Rounders on receivers, tight ends, and safeties the moment one hits the market.

 

[oldhawkfan]

Picking Charbonnet over Torrence was another botched pick, supposedly in a draft where JS had "more control" of the draft.

With hindsight being 2020 you are probably right. However, at the time RB was a huge need. K9 was coming off an injury and there wasn’t much behind him. The team was coming off a year where they had two tackles that looked like a home run from the year before. They also had Damien Lewis at guard and drafted Bradford to play the other guard.

If JS had a crystal ball, he might have drafted Torrence over ZC. Team needs at the time dictate the direction they go.

 

[hgwellz12]

I can say one thing in John's defense that I haven't seen anyone mention yet. Just like how awful the Patriots have been at building teams in the Tom Brady years. The league is literally built to have the good teams draft later to have bad teams become good. From 2015-2023 you had mediocre Seahawks teams always going 9-7 to 11-5 and getting bounced early and consistently drafting late every year. Schneider didn't have a chance at drafting high ever..... BUT he consistently traded all his top picks and his picks year after year after year since 2012 have been literally all fails, there are some good players sprinkled in but nearly all bad. I also don't fault the Adams trade when it happened. And also in John's defense we don't know how much influence Pete had on his picks.

I would hate for you to be my defense lawyer.
"Yeah, true, hgwellz12 punted the neighbor's pet possum halfway down the block. But, ever since he was a kid he has been terrified of the little demon faced bastards and knew that they are prone to have rabies. Also, he just wanted to see if it could really 'play' dead, your honor."

 

[jeremiah]

^^^

That's the thing about details ............. If ya don't keep up with them, read every page of every chapter, ya lose track of the story and get left behind in the dark.

The best thing to do is observe the Hawks, and root for good football, which incidentally is played by good teams. I am loving on the Lions, the Bills, Pittsburgh, Redskins, and the Texans. Miami and Philly are good, but I can't root for SF, AZ or the Rams. Hell, Denver is interesting. Seahawks are below all but ...wait a minute, they would be underdogs to all of the above, including Chicago at this point.

 

[Rat]

Nobody really uses high picks on interior OL (like top half of the first round) unless a generational prospect like Quenton Nelson is sitting there. There have actually been a surprising number of misses among first-round OGs too. Jonathan Cooper and Chance Warmack were both terrible busts selected in the top 10. Other than that, kinda hit or miss: Chris Lindstrom (14th) is a stud, Alijah Vera-Tucker is pretty good (14th), Brandon Scheff has been steady, but I would hope for more than one All-Pro in ten years from a guy drafted fifth overall. Kenyon Green (15th) has been horrific this year for the Texans. Some recent later first round OGs who have been just awful include Danny Watkins, Joshua Garnett, Cole Strange, Isaiah Wynn, Laken Tomlinson was a bust for the Lions.

I dont believe a center has ever been drafted higher than 16th.

 

[toffee]

Maybe I’m remembering this wrong, but wasn’t Schneider given control over the draft prior to the 2022 draft? Until then it was my understanding that Pete had the final say. Jody Allen changed that structure a bit to give John the final decision. The ‘22 and ‘23 drafts were the best drafts they have had since probably 2012.

Not 'officially', the ownership never made that announcement？

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

It was asked, if you had to replace JS who would it be, well here are some names from some winning teams or have been recently drafting well and signing smart FA;

Lions:
Ray Agnew, Asst. GM
John Dorsey, Senior Personnel Director

Texans:
James Liipfert, Executive Director of Player Personnel

Ravens:
Joe Horitz, Director of Player Personnel

Chiefs:
Mike Borgonzi, Asst. GM