Ringer article on Seahawks Offense

TwistedHusky

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That isn't rational.

Wilson has been playing a certain way for 10+ years. At issue is why.

Was that Wilson's weaknesses, Carroll's preferences, or both?

We talk about Wilson throwing into coverage but Wilson often had receivers that won at highpointing the ball. It made sense to throw into coverage when you had the angle.

We talk about Wilson wanting to constantly take moonshots, but then Carroll has been obsessed with 'explosive plays' since at least 2012.

Wilson has played this way for so long, it has likely become habit. Now was he capable of playing another way?
Did Carroll adopt this style to adapt to Wilson's weaknesses? Or did Wilson adapt to deliver as Carroll demanded? Nobody knows but those 2. The rest is conjecture.

But if it WAS NOT a limitation, over time the coaching will find ways of getting Wilson to be comfortable making those throws. In pressure, he will probably revert to his habits, and comfort zone - as we all tend to do.
But if change is coming...it will come gradually over time.
You won't likely see it in Game 1. That would be highly unlikely.
 

JayhawkMike

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That isn't rational.

Wilson has been playing a certain way for 10+ years. At issue is why.

Was that Wilson's weaknesses, Carroll's preferences, or both?

We talk about Wilson throwing into coverage but Wilson often had receivers that won at highpointing the ball. It made sense to throw into coverage when you had the angle.

We talk about Wilson wanting to constantly take moonshots, but then Carroll has been obsessed with 'explosive plays' since at least 2012.

Wilson has played this way for so long, it has likely become habit. Now was he capable of playing another way?
Did Carroll adopt this style to adapt to Wilson's weaknesses? Or did Wilson adapt to deliver as Carroll demanded? Nobody knows but those 2. The rest is conjecture.

But if it WAS NOT a limitation, over time the coaching will find ways of getting Wilson to be comfortable making those throws. In pressure, he will probably revert to his habits, and comfort zone - as we all tend to do.
But if change is coming...it will come gradually over time.
You won't likely see it in Game 1. That would be highly unlikely.
I’m going to respectfully disagree. I think Wilson has heard the drum beat of the critics so long that the first game he is going to go out of his was to do everything he has failed to do. He will run early in the game to establish the threat. He will throw over the middle. He will hit the check downs. At least for that game. He will inadvertently prove that he has always been capable of playing like we have been begging for for so long and that he was simply too stubborn, selfish or stupid to play that way here.
 

TwistedHusky

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If he proves that, then the assumption that he was 'not capable' becomes false.

And it certainly makes the case that Carroll could be the reason not Wilson.
 

keasley45

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That isn't rational.

Wilson has been playing a certain way for 10+ years. At issue is why.

Was that Wilson's weaknesses, Carroll's preferences, or both?

We talk about Wilson throwing into coverage but Wilson often had receivers that won at highpointing the ball. It made sense to throw into coverage when you had the angle.

We talk about Wilson wanting to constantly take moonshots, but then Carroll has been obsessed with 'explosive plays' since at least 2012.

Wilson has played this way for so long, it has likely become habit. Now was he capable of playing another way?
Did Carroll adopt this style to adapt to Wilson's weaknesses? Or did Wilson adapt to deliver as Carroll demanded? Nobody knows but those 2. The rest is conjecture.

But if it WAS NOT a limitation, over time the coaching will find ways of getting Wilson to be comfortable making those throws. In pressure, he will probably revert to his habits, and comfort zone - as we all tend to do.
But if change is coming...it will come gradually over time.
You won't likely see it in Game 1. That would be highly unlikely.
It's not conjecture when for two years, the HC is frustrated at his qb not taking the plays available to him. I think Carroll loosened whatever preference he may have had for a conservative pass game when we lost Lynch , hired Schotty, and handed the reigns to him and Russ.

For it to be simply conjecture, not throwing to wrs running open on plays where Russ instead threw long or held the ball and bailed the pocket rather than hit his guy would have had to be mandated. And the idea that a HC or OC would say - hey, these guys are going to be open, but don't throw unless the sky is falling and you can't scramble instead or the chance of hitting the big one is less than 50/50.

No HC, however conservativez, would just give up plays that were there and be ok with it.

And no QB capable of making anticipatory throws and snap reads would let plays fail for the sake of a scramble improv act. Especially one so completely obsessed with being mentioned among those qbs in the league recognized for their ability to do so.

The confusion comes in that PC put a bubble around Russ for years and was enamored by his grit and determination to succeed despite his shortcomings. He never called Russ out because there was always a fornus to win anyway ( to his other players ire), and in spectacular fashion either via Lynch, the D, or Russ just getting it done outside of the plays he could run but defenses snuffed out or those he struggled with.

And in always saying how beautiful Russ would play and how incredible he was and how the game went exactly as he wanted, he encouraged the perception that he wanted to play the way we did in all of our close contests. Fact was that was the way we had to win with Russ. The improv game doesn't work for 60 minutes. So you play conservative ball, lean on the run to help his wb, workk within the system, keep it close, and then let Russ do his sandlot act in the 4th.

But Russ is smart. I do believe he will work the designed runs more in Demver because if he doesn't, that show will come to a gri ding halt quickly. And doing so will help him and their offense to function closer to what we knew in 2018 - 2020.

But I don't think he will ever just decide to turn on some latent or suppressed ability to do the things 'read ' wide that he could t for 10 years here.
 
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Hyak

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2020 and 2021 was definitely a battle of wills - RW's way letting Russ cook vs playing within the structure of the offense. Remember when Wilson ****** up in OT of the Titans game not taking easy check downs and then got away with a game losing safety? Carroll rightfully said he wished Russ had taken what was there. Wilson's response was the opposite. Same thing happened in the Bears game.

It was time for a divorce.
 

TwistedHusky

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Well I don't think Russ is great or will ever be great at reading defenses presnap.

I just don't think he needs to be either.

Most defenses are predicated on moving the QB off his spot. Both because pressure makes a QB less accurate and throwing on the move increases mistakes while decreasing accuracy.

Whether Wilson is as fast or not is immaterial. Wilson moving causes problems for defenses. All Wilson has to do is read coverage postsnap (which he does tremendously well) and put the ball there (which he also does well)
And finally, Wilson does as well (if not better under pressure) and throws accurately on the move.
That makes him incredibly difficult to defend (ask the 49ers), since their entire thing is getting pressure quickly to stop drives.
The idea that he has to be good at presnap reads is not true.

The idea that Carroll would be better under a different QB is laughable though. And I contend there is enough indication that Carroll's obsession with the explosive plays could have been the factor, instead of Wilson's supposed limitations.

If Wilson can show he can throw med & short passes (like in 2015?) then it makes a good case that Carroll was the fault since - not Wilson.
 

John63

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Well I don't think Russ is great or will ever be great at reading defenses presnap.

I just don't think he needs to be either.

Most defenses are predicated on moving the QB off his spot. Both because pressure makes a QB less accurate and throwing on the move increases mistakes while decreasing accuracy.

Whether Wilson is as fast or not is immaterial. Wilson moving causes problems for defenses. All Wilson has to do is read coverage postsnap (which he does tremendously well) and put the ball there (which he also does well)
And finally, Wilson does as well (if not better under pressure) and throws accurately on the move.
That makes him incredibly difficult to defend (ask the 49ers), since their entire thing is getting pressure quickly to stop drives.
The idea that he has to be good at presnap reads is not true.

The idea that Carroll would be better under a different QB is laughable though. And I contend there is enough indication that Carroll's obsession with the explosive plays could have been the factor, instead of Wilson's supposed limitations.

If Wilson can show he can throw med & short passes (like in 2015?) then it makes a good case that Carroll was the fault since - not Wilson.
the thing is though 2015 proved he can. and he had an incredible year. So logically speaking why would a QB want to change anything when you played that well? You would not more than likely though you would change if the HC wanted it Given we know PC wants to run the ball and take shots for chunk plays the odds are very good it was a PC thing.
 

scutterhawk

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Wilson indeed showed in 2015 that he could...until the Defenses found a solution that reined in a LOT of his explosive plays -> Lost in the FIRST GAME of the playoffs that year.
I'm guessing that some of you want to lay the blame on Pete for all the picks too.
Look, all excuses aside, IF Pete wanted him to play a certain way, it did NOT MATTER, Wilson still played it HIS OWN WAY.
IF he Coulda, he absolutely Woulda Pete Carroll or no Pete Carroll.
Some of y'all are being silly...Does ANYONE actually believe that Pete tried to hobble Wilson's successes? LOLOL on ya if you do.
Wilson is a Mega Gifted Quarterback, he is also a 'Wilson System' Quarterback, WITH SOME FLAWS, and as such, the Coaches in Denver are going to have fun designing plays that strictly contour to his strengths. Wilson too, is going to have to do some re-construction, & get shed of a couple of bad habits.
Gotta ask yourselves too, 'Why did it take Rodgers signing back with the Packers before the Donkos made the move on getting Wilson...Was he their #2 choice between the two QB's?
 

Scout

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The offense can work with Geno or Lock working the middle of the field + running game and some play action sprinkled in. Geno is the more accurate passer downfield and actually underrated in that regard compared to other NFL QBs last season. Lock obviously has the arm but must improve his footwork to be more accurate downfield.

Also, I am not sure why people feel the Seahawks lack talent (eg offense) because Aaron Rodgers would light it up with Fant, Locket and Metcalf.

The Seahawks had enough talent to be a .500 ball club last season. The problem last season was the defense lost its edge to create turnovers while the offense couldn't sustain drives. The Seahwks added more talent this off season but they are not a bottom dweller based on talent. They are not the Lions for example. If Wilson can not guide an average roster anymore to the playoffs and needs more talent at his age realistically that is fine. But saying the team will crater without Wilson isn't realistic either IMO.
 
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LeaveLynchAlone

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It is telling that the most compelling player for the Seahawks left.

The article is about Wilson because Wilson is still worth writing about.

They didn't write about the increasingly less capable, increasingly less competent HC because nobody cares. Nor the team that is essentially 1/2 JAGs.

They made it about Wilson.

There isn't much left to matter.

You have Tyler (if we keep him), DK, Diggs and then what? A bunch of guys that aren't exceptional and nobody expects to do anything.

Maybe, MAYBE Brown.

An NFL roster has 53 players on it, we have maybe 5 players that anyone cares about or expects anything from. 6 if you count our punter.

So the article is about Wilson, though ostensibly about the Seahawk offense.
After laughing a bit about Lock or Smith being any good, or the Seahawks being any kind if playoff team - it is intended to get people to read it because Wilson is featured prominently in it.

We will watch the games because we love football, and we root for the Seahawks even when they have a bang average roster. But come on, nobody expects it to do anything. But Wilson is still an interesting topic so people will read about that.
:cry:
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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The objective in keeping Wilson would be that as long as you have a star QB, you can attract the better coaches (see GB).

You get another 3-4 years of winning, a little cap hell later, but have a solid HC and can potentially have built a strong team since then (again see GB).

The objective in keeping Carroll is the same as those people that would go see an aging Motley Crue at the Emerald Queen Casino. There was a fat, wheezing, potentially balding Vince Young falling in and out of key - cracking notes here and there. Nobody came to listen to them for that. Nobody cares that the band kinda sucked in those later years and that Vince could barely sing.

They came to remember what Motley Crue sounded like, and in turn, remember how fun it was to go to those concerts back when that band was good and relevant.

It is a nostalgia tour.

Same thing.

People will go to enjoy the nostalgia and remember when the team was strong and competitive. But all Carroll does is feed the memories train and keep us bobbing at .500. It isn't as if there is a future there or any kind of chance we are a playoff team.
:cry:
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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Well Motley Crue sucked.

But I have to imagine that is the only reason someone would go watch them now.

Not worried about my lost youth. It is our rapidly aging, increasingly losing effectiveness and barely competent HC that I am worried about.

It is bad enough to have an average or below average QB. But to have a barely there HC where he cannot even do the things anymore he used to be good at and still struggles with the things he was never good at?

Not a great sign for the future.

So the only reason to even keep him is to remember when he was capable and competent.

On the bright side, going to games is going to be so much easier. If you ever wanted to see a star on the other team live - and never had good enough seats? It will be so much easier to get better seats, better parking, etc.
:cry:
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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I guess.

I have zero confidence in Pete.

There is nothing left to save, though, so if he does OK, good on him. I just consider him devoid of any value or worth as a football coach unless you are playing below .500 teams.

He is good at making a team look better than it is when it is crappy and worse than it is when it is good. So being crappy now, I suppose that is a positive.

But it isn't like he likely will do or accomplish anything beyond slightly above .500 records anymore.

So why bother?

You are right that Wilson probably wanted a bigger stage, and if the separation was in the preparation - the distractions were impacting his prep...and thus his results. There was still probably more future with a checked-out Wilson than a barely competent Carroll.

We will see. But I'm better we will see a lot of great excuses from Carroll's supporters instead of any more actual accomplishments from Carroll anymore.
:cry:
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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HoxRox,

Is there any circumstance where an aging HC with no QB doesn't get us stuck in mediocrity as well?

Especially when that aging HC was only really good at player development and defense...and no longer is above average (or even palatable) at either?
At least a HOF will win you games. What does a barely capable HC win you WITHOUT a QB?
:cry:
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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Well I don't think Russ is great or will ever be great at reading defenses presnap.

I just don't think he needs to be either.

Most defenses are predicated on moving the QB off his spot. Both because pressure makes a QB less accurate and throwing on the move increases mistakes while decreasing accuracy.

Whether Wilson is as fast or not is immaterial. Wilson moving causes problems for defenses. All Wilson has to do is read coverage postsnap (which he does tremendously well) and put the ball there (which he also does well)
And finally, Wilson does as well (if not better under pressure) and throws accurately on the move.
That makes him incredibly difficult to defend (ask the 49ers), since their entire thing is getting pressure quickly to stop drives.
The idea that he has to be good at presnap reads is not true.

The idea that Carroll would be better under a different QB is laughable though. And I contend there is enough indication that Carroll's obsession with the explosive plays could have been the factor, instead of Wilson's supposed limitations.

If Wilson can show he can throw med & short passes (like in 2015?) then it makes a good case that Carroll was the fault since - not Wilson.
:cry:
 

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