Refs ruined the game

RiverDog

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Maybe I was unclear. I didn't mean to say the Hawks offense underperformed. 500 yards, moved the ball at will. What I was saying was that the defense being obliterated by injuries does not automatically mean the Lions should win by blowout because the offense is unaffected and is still able to carry the team. So no matter what happens to the defense, the Lions aren't garbage for failing to win by blowout.
I appreciate your clearing that up.

But I don't understand your claim that others in here are calling the Lions 'garbage' because they should have won by a blowout. I think the point being made is that given all the circumstances with injuries and anomalies on the field, like a QB performing the way Goff did and the difference in turnovers, that it was reasonable to have expected the Lions to have won by a larger margin than they did.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Oh I get it. I thought I had been unclear before. But actually you're messing with me.

I said the Lions are not garbage for failing to win by blowout. There's no way to interpret that as "Lions won by blowout."
Fair enough. Lions are one hell of a team, flat out contenders.
 

Iron Lion

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I appreciate your clearing that up.

But I don't understand your claim that others in here are calling the Lions 'garbage' because they should have won by a blowout. I think the point being made is that given all the circumstances with injuries and anomalies on the field, like a QB performing the way Goff did and the difference in turnovers, that it was reasonable to have expected the Lions to have won by a larger margin than they did.
In NFL history there have been well over 10,000 games played, but probably none quite like this one. There's no comparison to tell us how the game should've gone.

Half the Hawks plays resulted in a first down, resulting in the Lions D being on the field a lot. Time of possession was lopsided. The Lions had more chunk plays resulting in quicker drives. On top of this, no incompletions meant it wasn't just ToP that was skewed, but in real time Lion drives were fast. Every incompletion adds 40 seconds to a drive.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Then again........I'm still pissed at them for choking vs. Santa Clara. Horrific coaching in that game. Had several chances to play add on. They had no business not being in the Superb Owl last season.
 

pmedic920

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The problem about complaining about the refs is that there is nothing there the Seahawks can control. It's the ultimate cop-out and lack of accountability...which MM is supposedly big on. It's like people who complain about taxes being the reason they don't have the life they want. Go make more money, spend less money and/or figure out how to work that system.
There isn’t a “problem” about complaining about the refs.
If you truly believe there is a “problem” would you be willing to extrapolate?

Isn’t complaining about the refs simply something all NFL fans do to relieve stress and frustration?
We’ve all seen instances where the refs absolutely affected the outcome of a game, and that’s a “problem”.

We can all argue that this bad call or that non call changed something (complain) but that’s not truly a problem, is it?
 

SoulfishHawk

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The officiating was a factor, period. Complaining about the refs is absolutely justified. It was pathetic on Monday night. And magically, it seemed quite one sided come the 4th quarter.
 

ZagHawk

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There isn’t a “problem” about complaining about the refs.
If you truly believe there is a “problem” would you be willing to extrapolate?

Isn’t complaining about the refs simply something all NFL fans do to relieve stress and frustration?
We’ve all seen instances where the refs absolutely affected the outcome of a game, and that’s a “problem”.

We can all argue that this bad call or that non call changed something (complain) but that’s not truly a problem, is it?

People's feelings are valid. So venting in frustration is valid. The "problem" about the complaining/venting is usually what follows...giving too much power of the ref call or non-call to the outcome of the game. When the reality is the biggest and really sole focus even as fans should be where our team we love could have performed better. Because truthfully bad calls/non calls happen all game for both teams, but we like to hone in on it as fans because it's the one thing the Seahawks cannot control.


PC's LOB Seahawks were the most penalized team in the NFL but as fans we generally let those calls be, because those Seahawks were so good, we couldn't point to officiating changing the outcome of the game. You know a Detroit fan could have pointed to all the defensive pass interference calls they got as "ticky tacky" or "one sided" had they lost the game, or perhaps it could have resulted in an even bigger beat down of the Hawks had those calls not happened.

Anyway going back to everything. There is a "problem" because zeroing in on the officiating as changing something, goes to the next step of that situation being the main factor of the outcome. The true main factors of the outcome was that offense made a major mistake in the beginning, the run game took a while to get going, special teams did poorly on returns and defense throughout the game was very bad. For as many situations as we would want to claim the refs changed something for the bad, they changed a lot of things for the good (there were more calls and more yards penalized on the lions that game).

This was a great game for the Hawks (and the fans) to see where this Hawks team is, and where it wants to be..

I remain very consistent with my mindset when it comes to officiating. I don't want to hear the excuses from other fans when our Hawks win and there were questionable calls or non-calls that benefited the Hawks. So I must remain consistent when it appears the other way around too.

It's very human nature to blame the uncontrollable thing as a factor, because it removes accountability and I know this word sucks to read..."entitlement". It's like people who complain about inflation right now why they're broke and need more money. Meanwhile I'm saving more money then I ever have despite the inflation and now being a single income because I decided to eat Costco chicken for most of my meals even if my salary is pretty good.

Take a boxing match of MMA fight...don't let the judges decide the outcome of the fight.
 
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Chuckwow

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For the missed DK PI - I think that some Refs would tell you that on a "Free Play" like that one (where the Defense was offsides) that they don't like awarding additional penalties - further down the field.....whatever the offense can accomplish there is great without the risk of interception.....but they don't like to give the offense 1st and 1 at the 1 due to Pass Interference. In their mind the Receiver either can make the reception or the offense gets the benefit of the original Penalty.

Whether or not this is the way it should be called is another story...but this has always been my impression....and was my impression of last night's call.
You bring up a very solid point with this. It's probably not the way it should be, but I guess it is what it is. I think most just hope for consistency and even if the refs are somewhat consistent with such no calls in a spot like this...I emphasize the word "somewhat" because I think if that's Lockett down there getting mugged, they throw the flag.

DK otoh, in my opinion, suffers what many refer to as the Cam Newton rules. The guy is just so physically imposing that he's not going to get many of the calls fans might think that he should. To be clear, DK does get some calls and I have no empirical evidence of what I'm suggesting here, just going by the eye test alone and try as I might, I'm certainly capable of being a bit biased.
 

rcaido

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Lions were beating the Seahawks majority of the time by 2TDs. I dont think the refs change the outcome of the loss. Did they ruined it w/ bad calls yes but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Dolphins game. That was really hard game to watch.

Seems like Geno's best game is against the Lions. Last year he went off too, hopefully its going to be a trend if we see them in the playoffs.
 

hawks85

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I'm confused by this. You say you were missing ¾ of your defense, and that is definitely true. You go on to say we should've jolly whooped y'all. Could you fill in the blank there? Missing guys on D just means we expect a big night from the Lions offense, and I believe that is what happened. No amount of injuries on your defense would make your offense underperform. Am I missing something?
With our preseason defense playing you guys should have had 1000 yards total offense, but instead you had 300 something. We as an offense had over 500 yards total offense on your starting defensive players. Our offense outplayed your offense despite having 3/4 of our D on the sideline.
 

bigskydoc

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Lions were beating the Seahawks majority of the time by 2TDs. I dont think the refs change the outcome of the loss. Did they ruined it w/ bad calls yes but it wasn't nearly as bad as the Dolphins game. That was really hard game to watch.

Seems like Geno's best game is against the Lions. Last year he went off too, hopefully its going to be a trend if we see them in the playoffs.
And yet, absent the terrible calls, our team would have overcome the deficit, and would have led late in the 4th quarter.

Whether or not they could have closed it out it another question.
 

rcaido

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And yet, absent the terrible calls, our team would have overcome the deficit, and would have led late in the 4th quarter.

Whether or not they could have closed it out it another question.
We were meant to lose the game. Anytime a QB gets a receiving TD and Goof of all people getting it, is just comical and embarrassing. I dont think we would been able to hold the lead...Too many injuries and Goof was slicing us and their running game did what they wanted.
 

slateman77

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That game wasn't embarrassing. I came out MORE confident in this team. And I don't think I'm alone in that.

Also, GOFF is a damn good QB, esp. if you give him time back there.
I agree 100%..!! Without the fumble and the non Dpi call it could of went either way. Would love to have the chance to play them again when we have an actual D line.
 

MORGULON

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Fair enough. Lions are one hell of a team, flat out contenders.
We hung with them missing 5 of our front 7. If we're lucky enough to face them again with our starters I'd like our chances.

It had been awhile since they beat us 😆 so congrats or whatever I'm supposed to say.
 

HOF Hater

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You must be one of those wannabe tough guys who's only outlet to live out his fantasy is to talk smack behind the safety of a screen.

I'm going to bitch about the refs even harder next time just for you.

I get it, you took something personally that wasn't supposed to be personal, that's your issue, no one else's. We lost because our defense got destroyed on the back end and you want to believe it was flags. I can't help that you're wrong, take that up with your ego. Also your fucktarded fascination about me being a "Tough Guy" on the internet is really just your deflection, either way not my problem.
 

Iron Lion

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With our preseason defense playing you guys should have had 1000 yards total offense, but instead you had 300 something. We as an offense had over 500 yards total offense on your starting defensive players. Our offense outplayed your offense despite having 3/4 of our D on the sideline.
Well, 389 yards, which would reasonably round to 400. Particularly if you add back on the -2 lost from kneeldowns at the end, it's 391.

But I find your take to be strange in that you get into nuance on one issue (yards) but you offer zero nuance on another issue (defensive injuries).

Yards:

If the Lions had pick-sixes, punt returns, basically Chicago Bears-style football getting us all our points, then nuance about yardage matters. But that's not what happened. Every TD was from the offense, and just one short field on the DK fumble. Every other drive they went the length of the field. What's the yardage actually matter? It doesn't, not really. It's strange that the Lions were something like -130 in yards and yet won by 2 scores, but the reason is pretty simple. Every Lions drive was either all the way into the endzone, or else a 3 & out (or a safety). I don't think they gained a single first down on a drive resulting in a punt. The Seahawks I don't think had a single 3 & out. Drives that get one or two first downs and then punt are generally not considered successful, although can be in some circumstances - but not when you're constantly down by one to two scores. Because if a drive into the red zone that results in an INT and a touchback isn't a successful drive, then how is a drive with three first downs and a touchback punt any better? It isn't, unless morale really is an issue. Essentially, the Lions made the most of their opportunities to an extreme degree, and the Seahawks had moderate production which sometimes led to no points. This is just football, man. I had a decade of people saying my QB was Stat Padford, racking up meaningless yards and TDs in losses, and now suddenly when my team controls the entire game from start to finish, somehow they were actually the inferior team.

Injuries:

Team structure matters. Not all backups are the same. One team might have rotations along their D line, or D line by committee, where there isn't much a dropoff from "starter" to "backup". Another team may have a superstar they lean on, and it all goes to trash when he's out. I don't know your team. You tell me what the dropoff is. Additionally, maybe your "starters" are B+ against the run and B- against the pass, but your "backups" are A+ against the run and D- against the pass. It's not as simple as "starter is out, we suck now." Well, maybe it is - again, I don't know your team. Maybe your backups are all awful, I don't know. But if all I hear is "our backups are in" then that is just as nuanced as saying 42>29. Furthermore, I don't see where you give consideration to *when* the injuries happened. I didn't see many injuries in the game. Therefore, your coaches knew who would be in on your defense and gameplanned accordingly. What would be actually catastrophic is if your coaches installed their game plan with the starters all week, and suddenly 75% of the defense is out for the game on the first drive. Now the gameplan is in the trash. Again, nuance. And lastly, the Lions put up 42 points. If you want to take away the TD on the DK fumble return, ok, 35 points, oh and we ended the game with the ball and would've had an opportunity to score even more if needed. 35 points and ending the game with the ball is still pretty good.

As a lifelong Lions fan, we had many seasons where some of us lived on "moral victory" because we had nothing else. Because we were trash. "Well we lost, but it was a good team and we looked good in such-and-such area and we can build on that." Ok. If you wanna have a moral victory, have at it. But trust me, moral victories aren't worth anything. I'm a Lions fan, I'd know.
 

keasley45

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Well, 389 yards, which would reasonably round to 400. Particularly if you add back on the -2 lost from kneeldowns at the end, it's 391.

But I find your take to be strange in that you get into nuance on one issue (yards) but you offer zero nuance on another issue (defensive injuries).

Yards:

If the Lions had pick-sixes, punt returns, basically Chicago Bears-style football getting us all our points, then nuance about yardage matters. But that's not what happened. Every TD was from the offense, and just one short field on the DK fumble. Every other drive they went the length of the field. What's the yardage actually matter? It doesn't, not really. It's strange that the Lions were something like -130 in yards and yet won by 2 scores, but the reason is pretty simple. Every Lions drive was either all the way into the endzone, or else a 3 & out (or a safety). I don't think they gained a single first down on a drive resulting in a punt. The Seahawks I don't think had a single 3 & out. Drives that get one or two first downs and then punt are generally not considered successful, although can be in some circumstances - but not when you're constantly down by one to two scores. Because if a drive into the red zone that results in an INT and a touchback isn't a successful drive, then how is a drive with three first downs and a touchback punt any better? It isn't, unless morale really is an issue. Essentially, the Lions made the most of their opportunities to an extreme degree, and the Seahawks had moderate production which sometimes led to no points. This is just football, man. I had a decade of people saying my QB was Stat Padford, racking up meaningless yards and TDs in losses, and now suddenly when my team controls the entire game from start to finish, somehow they were actually the inferior team.

Injuries:

Team structure matters. Not all backups are the same. One team might have rotations along their D line, or D line by committee, where there isn't much a dropoff from "starter" to "backup". Another team may have a superstar they lean on, and it all goes to trash when he's out. I don't know your team. You tell me what the dropoff is. Additionally, maybe your "starters" are B+ against the run and B- against the pass, but your "backups" are A+ against the run and D- against the pass. It's not as simple as "starter is out, we suck now." Well, maybe it is - again, I don't know your team. Maybe your backups are all awful, I don't know. But if all I hear is "our backups are in" then that is just as nuanced as saying 42>29. Furthermore, I don't see where you give consideration to *when* the injuries happened. I didn't see many injuries in the game. Therefore, your coaches knew who would be in on your defense and gameplanned accordingly. What would be actually catastrophic is if your coaches installed their game plan with the starters all week, and suddenly 75% of the defense is out for the game on the first drive. Now the gameplan is in the trash. Again, nuance. And lastly, the Lions put up 42 points. If you want to take away the TD on the DK fumble return, ok, 35 points, oh and we ended the game with the ball and would've had an opportunity to score even more if needed. 35 points and ending the game with the ball is still pretty good.

As a lifelong Lions fan, we had many seasons where some of us lived on "moral victory" because we had nothing else. Because we were trash. "Well we lost, but it was a good team and we looked good in such-and-such area and we can build on that." Ok. If you wanna have a moral victory, have at it. But trust me, moral victories aren't worth anything. I'm a Lions fan, I'd know.
We will see you in the playoffs. After that game, come back and lets talk about moral victories and nuance.

A predictionand friendly challenge from fan to fan.

22 v 22, full strength, there will be no need for nuance.

You guys have a good team. Glad to see the Lions contending for best in the NFCN and was pulling for you against the 9ers in the championship gane last year.

But when we see eachother again, we wont need the moral victory to feel good (not that we need it now). A plain ol victory will do just fine. 9-2 in the head to head over the last 20 years. 2024 round 2 will make it 10-2.

Good luck to the Lions from here on out. Very much hoping we get that second game this year.
 

Iron Lion

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We will see you in the playoffs. After that game, come back and lets talk about moral victories and nuance.

A predictionand friendly challenge from fan to fan.

22 v 22, full strength, there will be no need for nuance.

You guys have a good team. Glad to see the Lions contending for best in the NFCN and was pulling for you against the 9ers in the championship gane last year.

But when we see eachother again, we wont need the moral victory to feel good (not that we need it now). A plain ol victory will do just fine. 9-2 in the head to head over the last 20 years. 2024 round 2 will make it 10-2.

Good luck to the Lions from here on out. Very much hoping we get that second game this year.
If the Lions get a higher seed due to this game being the tiebreaker, and thus the game is in Detroit, will you use that as an excuse for a loss?

Edit - There is no scenario where both teams will have all 22 of their "starters" in a playoff game... that doesn't even happen in week 1. And further, every team has a handful of packages on each side of the ball to the point where there will be a core of 8 or 9 guys who are "true starters" and 3-4 "fringe starters", and it's not always clear what the actual 11 is on either side. Often the opponent may dictate that by matchups.

If the only issue is injuries and nothing else, or "22 vs 22 and no need for nuance"... I mean I cannot even comprehend that statement. The Super Bowl y'all lost in my Lions' stadium - was that because of injures, or because of the zebras? I didn't even care who won but it was clear the refs wanted the Steelers to win. This entire thread is about the refs for our MNF game. This is reality, not Madden. There is nuance.

Btw - someone over on my Lions thread pointed out that this year our opponents are getting blown out the next week. Rams lost 41-10 after playing us, then Tampa lost 26-7 after playing us, then Arizona lost 42-14 after playing us. Maybe it's coincidence. But our beat writers were at camp this year and they said the Lions were hitting unusually hard in practice, like hits that would normally start a fist fight but instead they just got up and ran another play. Repeatedly. Y'all got the Giants at home. We'll see how that streak goes.
 
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