Opinions on our defense from Top Billin'

[bigskydoc]

And that was his second season as defensive coordinator for the Ravens. How does that speak to the time it took to install his defense?

Conventional wisdom holds that the 2022 Ravens defense turned the corner with the addition of ILB Roquan Smith. Interestingly he joined October 31st, and started 7 days later (Baker taken October 24th and started 3 days later). He was not considered the best player on MacDonald's defense, but he was considered the heart and energy of it. He is famous for bringing game day energy to the practice field. A lot of parrallels to be found.

So, the six month statement I made was probably a little overestimation. Training camp that year kicked off on July 27, my birthday FWIW, and so it was more like 3 months before things clicked for the Baltimore defense.

In the 8 games before Smith arrived, The Ravens gave up an average of 22.7 points per game. In the 8 games after, 13.1 PPG. Bowser came off the injury list that same game, and his impact was not insignificant. Of course the offensive qualities of their second half opponents was pretty lacking.

Baltimore had a better defensive foundation for MM to build on, and a history of building and fielding great defenses under Harbaugh's staff. The defense was ranked in the top 3 in 2018, 2019, and 2020, dropping to 19th in 2021.

We can certainly argue whether it was the time necessary to install MM's defense, or the arrival of Smith that is mostly responsible, for the turnaround, but both had an impact.

With MM taking on a larger set of responsibilities, and having a front office that is new to him (he was with the Ravens for 7 years before going to Michigan then returning) I would expect more growing pains here.

 

[cymatica]

Didn't seem to take the Ravens all that long. They gave up 17 points or fewer in six of their first nine games last season, including four games in single digits.

They also had experienced coaches and a better front 7.

And that was his second season as defensive coordinator for the Ravens. How does that speak to the time it took to install his defense?

His first year, they gave up 17 or fewer in only 3 of their first 9, but 6 of the final nine. (Not sure why 17 was chosen, but I’ll use your stat).

That was despite Lamar Jackson being out for the final 7 games, which resulted in a slight uptick in opponent TOP.

Despite giving up 380, 547, and 447 total yards in the first three games, they ended the season with the third fewest points and the ninth fewest yards.

They were the 39th team in NFL history to hold a double digit lead in all of their first six games, but not have a winning record, going 3-3.

They had multiple losses in the fourth quarter, but these were pretty evenly spread throughout the year.

Not to mention that Macdonald didn't have an entire team to coach, while he was surrounded with good experienced coaches.

I don't understand the comparisons to Baltimore. Two completely different teams but people think we are supposed to look like them within a year because we have their 2 year coordinator

 

[Natethegreat]

Baltimore D stinks this year too. For what it's worth.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

That's probably coach Mike's fault too

/sarcasm

 

[knownone]

Baltimore also wasn't installing MM's defense for the first time. MM ran the scheme the Ravens had been running for over a decade. This was one of the potential concerns with the hire this offseason, i.e., how much of the Ravens defensive turnaround was MM and how much was Harbaugh and the Ravens institutional knowledge (multiple coaches experienced in the scheme).

As I mentioned during the summer and @bigskydoc touched on above,

It depends on how you look at it. While it's true the Ravens' defense was bad the year before MM took over (2021), they were also a top-three defense the three preceding years (18, 19, 20) and a top-ten defense every year dating back to 2015.

This sets up the tough scenario, wherein, despite having talent, Seattle will take time to improve on defense because they lack the institutional knowledge to run MM's scheme. In other words, we won't see dramatic improvement until coaches/players who are more steeped in this scheme are brought in.

If that problem sounds familiar, it's because that's precisely what happened with Clint Hurtt. We found ourselves caught between two separate defensive schemes. We had Pete coaches mixed with former Fangio coaches and a roster split between the two.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

It's going to take patience for sure. It's that simple. Very good points ^

 

[bileever]

Not trying to throw cold water on the idea of Macdonald being a genius, but the Ravens' defense is Harbaugh's defense. The Ravens were 2nd in defense in 2018, 3rd in 2019, and 2nd again in 2020, all without the boy genius. The Ravens had one of the worst defenses under Harbaugh in Macdonald's first year as DC.

Macdonald didn't invent the modern NFL defense. We're just hoping he learned enough from his time with the Ravens to bring that to Seattle. No different from hiring from the McVay coaching tree. What you want to see is the new coach bringing some of that secret sauce from the other team.

 

[JPatera76]

Not trying to throw cold water on the idea of Macdonald being a genius, but the Ravens' defense is Harbaugh's defense. The Ravens were 2nd in defense in 2018, 3rd in 2019, and 2nd again in 2020, all without the boy genius. The Ravens had one of the worst defenses under Harbaugh in Macdonald's first year as DC.

Macdonald didn't invent the modern NFL defense. We're just hoping he learned enough from his time with the Ravens to bring that to Seattle. No different from hiring from the McVay coaching tree. What you want to see is the new coach bringing some of that secret sauce from the other team.

Can you explain Michigan then as well? I find it interesting that 1 guy, got both those defenses firing and firing at a high level

 

[seabowl]

Eight games into a rookie coaches career. Let’s give him a couple of years and after that if things are the same, then we can start talking about. It’s the coaches fault. He inherited an average at best talent team so give him some time.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

The voice of reason ^^

Feels like people are already giving up on the guy after half of a season. Odd.

 

[bileever]

Can you explain Michigan then as well? I find it interesting that 1 guy, got both those defenses firing and firing at a high level

That's a good question. It's a matter of how much you think it was Jim Harbaugh or if Mike Macdonald had a big role in it. Jim Harbaugh has always had a good defensive scheme, whether it was in the NFL or in college. His Michigan team was top 3 in the Big 10 in 2018 and top 5 in 2019, so it's not like he doesn't know how to create a good defense. But in college, you naturally have more ups and downs as players come and go. His one bad year was 2020, the year before Macdonald came. But you have to remember that was the Covid year, and they only played 6 games. Macdonald came to Michigan the next year and they were back to #4. But was that all Macdonald? It's hard to say that given that Michigan's defense had been pretty good before.

Oh, and btw, after Macdonald left, Michigan's defense got even better, and in 2023, two years after Macdonald left, they were #1 in defense and won the national championship.

 

[bileever]

@JPatera76, I'm not saying Macdonald's not good. I'm saying that I hope he's been a good Harbaugh disciple and can bring some of that magic of the Harbaugh coaching tree to us. But people who throw the "genius" label around might want to look at the facts.

 

[Tech Worlds]

If that's what ownership believed, then maybe they aren't high football IQ people. They had to completely revamp the front 7 and had to find a center at the last minute because their guy isn't ready to start, on top of the fact that the oline was already bottom of the league.

Then I guess they aren't high iq people.
They didn't bring Mcdonald in for a multi year rebuild . He was brought in to get a team with talent over the hump.

 

[MORGULON]

I agree. If it continues I see Mike bringing in someone from Baltimore's defensive staff that was with him last year to help with the defense. I think Durde is gone after the season. Mike can't do it by himself, he needs help. Mike is the only one on the team that knows his defense inside and out because it's his defense. There are some defensive staff members on Baltimore that know Mike's defense and he needs to hire those guys to help him out.

I was surprised by the hiring of Durde. Seems like some b.s.
so they (the league)can say they hired a guy from Europe as an NFL coach.

I could beat Durde in Madden, then kick his ass.

 

[CPHawk]

FWIW, the chargers run a variant of our D, and their D has gotten better this year.

 

[hawks85]

FWIW, the chargers run a variant of our D, and their D has gotten better this year.

Coach Mike has stuff in his playbook that hasn't been used yet, a lot of stuff. Like he said, we can't get to the good stuff until we get the basics of the defense down. Can't skip steps like what he was saying.

 

[Ozzy]

That's a good question. It's a matter of how much you think it was Jim Harbaugh or if Mike Macdonald had a big role in it. Jim Harbaugh has always had a good defensive scheme, whether it was in the NFL or in college. His Michigan team was top 3 in the Big 10 in 2018 and top 5 in 2019, so it's not like he doesn't know how to create a good defense. But in college, you naturally have more ups and downs as players come and go. His one bad year was 2020, the year before Macdonald came. But you have to remember that was the Covid year, and they only played 6 games. Macdonald came to Michigan the next year and they were back to #4. But was that all Macdonald? It's hard to say that given that Michigan's defense had been pretty good before.

Oh, and btw, after Macdonald left, Michigan's defense got even better, and in 2023, two years after Macdonald left, they were #1 in defense and won the national championship.

Its tough to evaluate college defenses because teams like Michigan have so much more talent than other programs and can overwhelm them from that perspective at times.

My opinion, Macdonald is definitely a brilliant guy. The NFL is so connected that when something is almost universally accepted its for a reason, they all know one when they see one. I've read enough comments from really smart football minds who have studied his tape to know he does some unique stuff even if he carried on a Harbaugh type defense. I remember Sherman did a little dive into his film and he was blown away at the wrinkles he added once he took over and some of the adjustments, he saw Mike make. There are multiple other accounts who study this stuff and they all reached the same conclusion. So for me, I'm very confident he's a great defensive mind so if its not clicking yet I have hope it will and I need to be patient because it may take a year or two to fully materialize.

I think its funny, a lot of the people who think we need to change from him now or who don't seem to have any patience are the same people who got upset when people were critical of Pete after 5-7 years of bad defensive play that got worse 3 years in a row. That tells me people are mad Pete got let go so they're not going to give Mike any benefit of the doubt and I think that isn't fair. Let's enjoy the ride and see what he can do. Maybe coaching and running a defense is too much and he needs to just be a DC? It's within the range of potential outcomes for sure, I just have faith he figures all of this out.

 

[Hawkspeed]

I had a funny feeling about this whole thing when we were unable to sign Patrick Queen. Maybe he didn't want to come here with MacDonald. I wonder how he felt about his old coach and his defense.
Now here we are, struggling with gap integrity. Our front seven are leaking like a sieve against the run. Did Patrick Queen know something we don't?
Hopefully Ernest Jones IV can be a difference maker...

 

[chris98251]

It took 2 1/2 years for the defense under Pete to get it and be consistent, that was a very simple defense that just required you to maintain your gap. Mikes defense is vastly more complex and requires players to think and know assignments and changes with the deceptions. This will take a while, also he has to bring in players that fit, he and John went to the cast-off list to see what they could get and hope to get lucky. Put that all together and then add teams have seen it and are now adapting to where it's weak links are we are where we are.

 

[bigskydoc]

The Ravens had one of the worst defenses under Harbaugh in Macdonald's first year as DC.

Huh?

You must be thinking of the 2021 season, when Don “Wink” Martindale was in his last year as Ravens DC, and they were ranked 19th. That was one of the worst years for a Harbaugh defense, and was the catalyst for replacing Martindale with MM.

Despite a slow start, MM’s first year as DC was very successful. Baltimore ended the 2022 season ranked 3rd. His second season, they were ranked first.