Neutral/Opposition view on Wilson

Shev

New member
Joined
Feb 11, 2021
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Hey all,

Panther fan here. I feel as though this Russell Wilson story is a little manufactured by the media, with Wilson giving honest answers to questions and the media running with it. I would be shocked if you trade him, but I would also like to make a few points from an outsider's perspective.

1. Wilson is a top 20 QB all time, and top 5 currently.
This is pretty undeniable. The all time top ten is pretty stacked with the obvious legends, but Wilson has carved out an epic career to date. 1 ring and 2 SB trips is already more than Rodgers and Brees managed, partly for the reason of being in a stacked NFC for years (though that is changing - see below). As an opposition fan, he has always been an absolute pain to play, and you never feel safe against him. Sure he has some weaknesses, but he is absolutely elite. There is a long list of franchises who have NEVER had a QB as talented as Wilson.

2. The balance of QB power is changing from the NFC to the AFC.
For many years, the AFC was top heavy (Brady, Manning, Big Ben) while the NFC was loaded, providing an absolute gauntlet of QBs to get through every post season. That is changing dramatically, and we could be a couple of years away (Brady retiring, Rodgers old) from Wilson being in his mid thirties and by far and away the best QB in the NFC. Things can change with drafts, trades etc., but realistically, who else will there be based on the current picture? Kyler Murray? There is set to be an absolute dearth, with Wilson standing out a mile.

3. Brady is a funny mirror.
Brady's achievements have distorted what is possible in the salary cap era. Even before the salary cap, the gold standard for SB achievements with one QB was 4-0. In the salary cap era, after Brady you have Peyton 2-2 (including being carried to his last ring), Big Ben 2-1, Eli Manning 2-0, Elway 2-0, Warner 1-2, then Wilson, Favre and Mahomes at 1-1. I may be missing someone, but the point is that Brady's 7-3 record is absurd in any era, and though his and the Patriots' achievements should be aspired to, the Russell Wilson era is already well on the way to the non-Brady gold standard, which is getting to 3-4 big games and winning a couple.

4. Many teams underachieve in Championships.
A bit of an odd way to phrase it, but my point is that every season there are 4-6 teams who genuinely feel like they could/should have won it all (this season at least Tampa, New Orleans, Green Bay and Kansas City, with Baltimore and Buffalo as other possibilities). So there are about 4-6 times as many lost opportunities which fan bases rue, as actual championships. In many ways, I see Seattle, Green Bay and New Orleans in a similar light, in that you have all - in theory - left championships on the table with amazing QBs, but in a loaded NFC. Again, Brady and NE have distorted the reality of what is a likely return in this era. Mahomes and KC may make it even more difficult to add rings for other franchises.

5. Every season is a new iteration of a squad.
Weaknesses are frustrating, and a great QB may eat a lot of cap, but he also keeps you relevant, and it just takes everything hitting to break through again - I would use Atlanta in 2017 as an example, except for them falling at the final hurdle, but their run shows what happens when a team fires on all cylinders. The fact that Seattle manage to be relevant every season (along with GB and NO) in the NFC means that you have a higher foundation from which to try and break through.

6. Trying to get the "above average QB and loaded team" combo is easier said than done.
Yes, SF and LA came close recently with this setup, but the risks outweigh the rewards. You could just as easily end up with pre-Brady Tampa, a loaded side going 7-9 because they were held back by their QB. There is nothing quite so awful as being a QB away.

Well, just a few thoughts. Either way, most franchises would swap for your QB and situation in a heartbeat. If this was Carolina and someone needs to go overboard to lighten the load, Pete is getting wet long before Wilson.
 

FresnoHawk52

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
1,865
Reaction score
146
If you want RW offer Schneider DT Derrick Brown, 2021 1st & 2nd, 2022, 1st & 2nd, & 2023 1st & 3rd. Then trade Bridgewater to the Bears.
 

knownone

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
5,272
Reaction score
2,207
Shev":397h6ruq said:
Well, just a few thoughts. Either way, most franchises would swap for your QB and situation in a heartbeat. If this was Carolina and someone needs to go overboard to lighten the load, Pete is getting wet long before Wilson.

The key difference here is that Seattle is not most franchises or Carolina. The Panthers have a new owner in his 2nd year, and they just hired a new GM. In contrast, even after Paul Allen's death, Seattle has a strong and established culture to fall back on. Pete Carroll and John Schnieder have had an immense amount of success. They've won a Superbowl and built a defense with the longest reign of dominance in the salary cap era. Unlike most teams around the league, they feel like they can move on from a player of Russell's caliber.

Now, whether we agree with that sentiment or not, it's definitely worthy of consideration when it comes to the topic of trading Russell. Because if I were PC or JS, It would be hard to look at the team from 2012-2017 and think that Russell is the only reason they were successful. And if that's the case, you're going to think you can do it again without him. Perhaps it is hubris, but it's absolutely what is happening inside that building if Russ is truly unhappy and trying to make a power play.

This is hard for me as a Seahawks fan. I have zero doubt that Russ is a top 3 QB and a 1st ballot HoFer. However, I also think that Pete and JS would be successful without him. They probably wouldn't be a consistent Superbowl threat unless they landed another elite-level QB, but they are not falling off a cliff.

As always, I appreciate the outsider's perspective.
 

TwistedHusky

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
6,888
Reaction score
1,054
You could certainly argue that most of that winning tradition, if not all of it recently, was built on Wilson's back.

Carroll was nothing but 7-9 without Wilson.

Trust me, I would love to see Pete get thrown out of the boat. (Unlikely for now)

The reasonable expectation would be that Wilson continues to win wherever he goes, and we likely then turn into bottom-feeders in our division, if not the entire conference

But the OP is right. Wilson a generational QB, with plenty of tread left. It would be insane and stupid to let that out of your team without doing everything you can to keep him.
 

John63

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
6,651
Reaction score
149
knownone":1ix1jwfn said:
Shev":1ix1jwfn said:
Well, just a few thoughts. Either way, most franchises would swap for your QB and situation in a heartbeat. If this was Carolina and someone needs to go overboard to lighten the load, Pete is getting wet long before Wilson.

The key difference here is that Seattle is not most franchises or Carolina. The Panthers have a new owner in his 2nd year, and they just hired a new GM. In contrast, even after Paul Allen's death, Seattle has a strong and established culture to fall back on. Pete Carroll and John Schnieder have had an immense amount of success. They've won a Superbowl and built a defense with the longest reign of dominance in the salary cap era. Unlike most teams around the league, they feel like they can move on from a player of Russell's caliber.

Now, whether we agree with that sentiment or not, it's definitely worthy of consideration when it comes to the topic of trading Russell. Because if I were PC or JS, It would be hard to look at the team from 2012-2017 and think that Russell is the only reason they were successful. And if that's the case, you're going to think you can do it again without him. Perhaps it is hubris, but it's absolutely what is happening inside that building if Russ is truly unhappy and trying to make a power play.

This is hard for me as a Seahawks fan. I have zero doubt that Russ is a top 3 QB and a 1st ballot HoFer. However, I also think that Pete and JS would be successful without him. They probably wouldn't be a consistent Superbowl threat unless they landed another elite-level QB, but they are not falling off a cliff.

As always, I appreciate the outsider's perspective.


"Unlike most teams around the league, they feel like they can move on from a player of Russell's caliber. " Your proof of this?

"Pete Carroll and John Schnieder have had an immense amount of success. They've won a Superbowl and built a defense with the longest reign of dominance in the salary cap era."


And what success did they have before Wilson? NONE
 

oldhawkfan

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
4,132
Reaction score
1,520
Location
Spokane
Thanks to the OP for the external look at the logic that many Seahawks fans seem to lack.
 

pittpnthrs

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
5,323
Reaction score
1,844
Its a no win situation honestly. If Wilson does leave after next season, the Hawks almost assuredly become an average to less than mediocre club, but fans will just clamor that Pete didnt have the time to right the ship before his departure, thus he gets the usual free pass fans have been giving him for years now.

If Russ stays and Pete coaches through his 5 year extension he so foolishly received, the Hawks will be stuck in the current limbo that they find themselves in. There will be some regression with this scenario mind you as the rest of the conference improves and the Hawks are slowly heading the other direction with cap issues and lack of draft picks, but Seattle will hover around the 9 - 10 win area with ,,,,,,, wait for it,,,,,,,, early playoff exits if they make the playoffs. This is what most fans are content with it seems.

Lastly, the least likely scenario, but the one I hope for is Russ signs a new contract after next season and Pete is handed his walking papers after an ultimatum and a new coach takes the reins. Its unknown how this would work out. Could it fail,,,sure. Could it succeed,,,,,,,sure. Either way, I believe its the only way going forward to cash in on Russ's abilities. I just dont believe Carroll is capable of taking the team any further than it has the past 5 years. At the worst in this scenario, in my opinion, is that the team still stays in the 9-10 win range due to Russ. On the other hand, the team could see another Super Bowl before the best QB Seattle has ever had, is done. This is the only way I can possibly see that happening.
 

TwistedHusky

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
6,888
Reaction score
1,054
If Wilson leaves, it is over.

Pete supporters get to give him excuse after excuse, never acknowledging that their coach was the reason Wilson is gone. Remember 'Let Russ Cook' was NOT a tagline, it was a WARNING. Pete disregarded it in the 2nd half and so Wilson made the decision to look elsewhere.

He gave Pete last year to clean up his act, and Pete chose not to.

It will be nice to see Wilson finally become the great QB he could have been years ago under a competent offensive-minded HC.



People act like draft picks will make up for it. This is hilarious.

Wilson is a generational QB. In the 40 some odd years of the Seahawks' existence we have had ONE generational QB. Wilson.

Want to guess how many 1st round draft picks we have had?

We get them every year.

Generational QBs don't even appear yearly. They are very uncommon and they tend to only occur for a franchise a few times in their history. It is rare to get them at all.

Meanwhile aging coaches that are only semi-competent at this point? Those are both easy to find and not uncommon.

Wilson is the rare jewel here with plenty of years left in him. Carroll is a bag of something left out far too long and pretty close to the expiration date already.
 

Ad Hawk

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
3,185
Reaction score
403
Likewise, what happens if RW leaves, the team chooses a new QB, rebuilds and wins? It could happen, and it may not.

There are no guarantees. Russ is an amazing QB, but that alone doesn't guarantee he'll be super-bowl successful anywhere and everywhere else but here.

Just as with all great teams, it takes the entire system working together to win it all, along with a good to great QB who is usually on a Rookie or re-worked later years contract.
 

HawkRiderFan

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
1,904
Reaction score
760
FresnoHawk68":3jnfv0sq said:
What happens if Pete rebuilds the OL and RW craps the bed?

I'd prefer taking the risk vs trading Russ and finding another elite QB
 

pittpnthrs

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
5,323
Reaction score
1,844
FresnoHawk68":21yx8gma said:
What happens if Pete rebuilds the OL and RW craps the bed?

Russ has been pretty good for years with a crappy line. The probability of him crapping the bed with a good OL is about zero. If he did crap the bed, its on him.
 

John63

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
6,651
Reaction score
149
FresnoHawk68":1fycbisi said:
What happens if Pete rebuilds the OL and RW craps the bed?


That would be the year the Mets win the Superbowl.
 

John63

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
6,651
Reaction score
149
Ad Hawk":3pc9j1v7 said:
Likewise, what happens if RW leaves, the team chooses a new QB, rebuilds and wins? It could happen, and it may not.

There are no guarantees. Russ is an amazing QB, but that alone doesn't guarantee he'll be super-bowl successful anywhere and everywhere else but here.

Just as with all great teams, it takes the entire system working together to win it all, along with a good to great QB who is usually on a Rookie or re-worked later years contract.


The odds are much higher he leaves and kills it, than he leaves and sucks

The odds are much higher he leaves, and we suck then he leaves, and we do great.
 

FresnoHawk52

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
1,865
Reaction score
146
John63":1q4rkas5 said:
Ad Hawk":1q4rkas5 said:
Likewise, what happens if RW leaves, the team chooses a new QB, rebuilds and wins? It could happen, and it may not.

There are no guarantees. Russ is an amazing QB, but that alone doesn't guarantee he'll be super-bowl successful anywhere and everywhere else but here.

Just as with all great teams, it takes the entire system working together to win it all, along with a good to great QB who is usually on a Rookie or re-worked later years contract.


The odds are much higher he leaves and kills it, than he leaves and sucks

The odds are much higher he leaves, and we suck then he leaves, and we do great.

If he leaves we better have 1 heck of a run game & defense, plenty of cap space to make it happen.
 

TwistedHusky

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
6,888
Reaction score
1,054
It won't matter Fresno.

Since 2010, you need to be a top 10, if not top 5 QB to win a SB.

There were a few exceptions, (Eagles) but middling QB or even middle of the road QBs and a top defense and run game? That just makes you the Bears a year or 2 ago.

You don't make the SB with that recipe. You just have more boring games during the regular season.

Teams with top QBs get to compete for the throne. Teams without one either have to tank to get one, hope to get lucky later (rare), or just be content with decent regular-season records.

There is no recipe for success in the playoffs without a great QB, and frankly, not even sure Pete can be good in the playoffs even WITH a great QB at this point.
 

aawolf

New member
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
638
Reaction score
0
Question for the OP and Seahawks fans:

Would you take the deal for Wilson that the Panthers would have to reportedly offer for Watson? Peter King speculated on sending Christian McCaffrey, Teddy Bridgewater, Robby Anderson, its 2021 first-round and second-round picks, its 2022 first-round pick, and 2023 third-round pick.

This is quite the trade package and I would love to see Wilson back in NC. It may make me invest in Panthers PSL's.
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
3,865
Reaction score
6,773
Location
Cockeysville, Md
John63":tfsfv501 said:
knownone":tfsfv501 said:
Shev":tfsfv501 said:
Well, just a few thoughts. Either way, most franchises would swap for your QB and situation in a heartbeat. If this was Carolina and someone needs to go overboard to lighten the load, Pete is getting wet long before Wilson.

The key difference here is that Seattle is not most franchises or Carolina. The Panthers have a new owner in his 2nd year, and they just hired a new GM. In contrast, even after Paul Allen's death, Seattle has a strong and established culture to fall back on. Pete Carroll and John Schnieder have had an immense amount of success. They've won a Superbowl and built a defense with the longest reign of dominance in the salary cap era. Unlike most teams around the league, they feel like they can move on from a player of Russell's caliber.

Now, whether we agree with that sentiment or not, it's definitely worthy of consideration when it comes to the topic of trading Russell. Because if I were PC or JS, It would be hard to look at the team from 2012-2017 and think that Russell is the only reason they were successful. And if that's the case, you're going to think you can do it again without him. Perhaps it is hubris, but it's absolutely what is happening inside that building if Russ is truly unhappy and trying to make a power play.

This is hard for me as a Seahawks fan. I have zero doubt that Russ is a top 3 QB and a 1st ballot HoFer. However, I also think that Pete and JS would be successful without him. They probably wouldn't be a consistent Superbowl threat unless they landed another elite-level QB, but they are not falling off a cliff.

As always, I appreciate the outsider's perspective.


"Unlike most teams around the league, they feel like they can move on from a player of Russell's caliber. " Your proof of this?

"Pete Carroll and John Schnieder have had an immense amount of success. They've won a Superbowl and built a defense with the longest reign of dominance in the salary cap era."


And what success did they have before Wilson? NONE

What success did Belichik have before Brady? One winning season in seven. Doesnt make him a bad coach all of a sudden or diminish what he's done or IS DOING while they are rebuilding their team. I dont get the binary - is it Pete and john who are great or is it Russ? Its a dumb argument. About as dumb as all those clamoring for the top OC's in the league to come and run our O.You rarely have a coach who reaches his full potential without a great QB or v.versa. Same with an OC and QB. They usually go hand in hand, unless you have an all world QB who is practically a coach on the field in his own right (Brady, Rogers, Manning...) Each piece feeds the success of the other. I mean, who was responsible for bringing Russ here in the first place? And who had the balls and foresight to make him the starter over a dude they just laid out a ton of cash for? And who was able to devise a scheme that allowed a young QB to flourish to the point we made back to back Superbowls? And maintain a level of success WHILE entirely rebuilding a roster. Seems we forget we are consistently in the ocnversation of the top teams in the league despite the fact that there are but 3 players on the roster now that played in the last Superbowl. Who else in recent history has been able to do that that doesnt have a QB named Brady? Doesnt happen. Closest would probably be the Steelers. The rest of the teams that have made it to the big dance in the last decade plus have had varying degrees of decline.

Seattle is better with the leadership it has in place. Its is also better with Russ in play.

But if the decision is made that the team needs to go in a different direction, I would trust that the same brilliance that brought us the success we've had to date, including giving Russ the reigns in the first place, would not all of a sudden crap the bed and turn the franchise over to another Charlie Whitehurst type.
 

TwistedHusky

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
6,888
Reaction score
1,054
Except Pete is 94 and Russ is 33.

Seems like you get at least 5 more years of success building around Russ vs whatever nightmare a Russless team under Pete would become.
 

DarkVictory23

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2021
Messages
1,165
Reaction score
1,776
TwistedHusky":2twvmy1x said:
You could certainly argue that most of that winning tradition, if not all of it recently, was built on Wilson's back.

Carroll was nothing but 7-9 without Wilson.

Trust me, I would love to see Pete get thrown out of the boat. (Unlikely for now)
Recently, yeah, but if we're talking about getting back to SB, Russ was almost assuredly the third most important piece of the teams that went to back-to-back Super Bowls, behind our defense and Marshawn Lynch.


It won't matter Fresno.

Since 2010, you need to be a top 10, if not top 5 QB to win a SB.

There were a few exceptions, (Eagles) but middling QB or even middle of the road QBs and a top defense and run game? That just makes you the Bears a year or 2 ago.

You don't make the SB with that recipe. You just have more boring games during the regular season.

Teams with top QBs get to compete for the throne. Teams without one either have to tank to get one, hope to get lucky later (rare), or just be content with decent regular-season records.

There is no recipe for success in the playoffs without a great QB, and frankly, not even sure Pete can be good in the playoffs even WITH a great QB at this point.
This isn't really the case, though. Besides the Eagles we also had Denver winning with a Peyton Manning who wasn't a 'middling' QB that year--he was legitimately bad.

On top of that, both LA and SF went to the SB with QBs who have either been traded (LA) or are actively being considered to move on from (SF) within just a few years of their SB appearance. Not exactly what you'd do as a thank you to your 'top 5' QBs. Joe Flacco played very well that one year for the Ravens, but he has otherwise been the very definition of middling.

Except Pete is 94 and Russ is 33.

Seems like you get at least 5 more years of success building around Russ vs whatever nightmare a Russless team under Pete would become.
I agree with this (except Pete is 69). I don't know that I think Russ should be planning the offense, like he seems to think. I legitimately don't trust his instincts on that. But I KNOW Pete shouldn't be doing it.

So it comes down to that for me.
 

Latest posts

Top