Lofa: "You're Not Outcoached, You're Outplayed"

[Chukarhawk]

We have the same, or better record, as 17 other teams.

If you would’ve told me that before the season began, I’d reply were right on track.

We could definitely use more talent in some areas.

But, this teams performance, attitude, energy…just morale in general is a direct reflection of something not being ‘right’ at a coaching level.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see a couple ‘one and dones’ after this season…and I doubt MM is one of those.

Speaking of MM..he strikes me as a no frills, X’s and O’s kind of guy. He’s someone I’d hire if I owned a business because I know he would get the job done. But, he appears to be missing a key element or perhaps I just haven’t seen it.

Players wanted to win for PC. The majority of former players under PC still talk highly of him…meet up in the offseason…he knew how to boost morale and always keep the team in a fight.

It was definitely time for change…unless your name is Mike Tomlin, a HC position is a revolving door in the NFL.

I have no doubt MM is, or will become a great leader. Not just a strategist…master of defensive scheming….but that intangible leadership quality of having those under you perform at their best level partly because they don’t want to disappoint you. They genuinely know you care and are proud of their success.

I’m not seeing that….

I think we VASTLY over rate the talent on this team. We have the worst O-line in the league and a defense that was ranked 30th in the league last year. Thats a set up for some UGLY, UGLY football. Rome wasn't built in a day and Petes first 2 seasons weren't that great. Is there a single player on defense that intimidates opponents and can change a game? I'm not seeing a single one. This is a WEAK roster.

 

[SNDavidson]

yep can't take running the ball with a top 5 threat to score at all times rb only 6 times, that's ridiculous, it has been more than once, clearly they have a function of Grubbs defense figured out, I think he's capable of making the changes, I'm giving the leadership a pass this year and the draft will be huge to see if we're going to draft 4 linemen in the top 4 rounds finally and get it over with. Defense will be improved by end of year as long as our injury list gets less ridiculous.

*edit: offense

 

[Fresno Hawk]

To me it's more of the syle of running plays Grubb is struggling with. His shot gun runs won't work every time. We need to run more from under center and maybe pass from under center more. To me it seems like everything is a shotgun pass or shotgun run.

 

[AROS]

To me it's more of the syle of running plays Grubb is struggling with. His shot gun runs won't work every time. We need to run more from under center and maybe pass from under center more. To me it seems like everything is a shotgun pass or shotgun run.

Watch Manti Te'o's take...I think he agrees with you.

 

[keasley45]

Watch Manti Te'o's take...I think he agrees with you.

This x 100.

All of the finger pointing at talent is funny. We have one of the worst o lines in the league. Do we REALLY have the 5 worst onlineman in the league?? As bad as they are, they shouldnt be good enough to start anyehere else. Do we really thank thats true?

No. And when Teo points out that virtually ALL of our runs are shotgun runs...

We are literally handing defenses a massive strategic advantage because they dont have to plan for anything else. They have seen EVERY run formation we are going to throw at them and i would virtually guarantee you, they know all of the 'tells' that give away which of the shotgun sets are going to be. The PA? Thats going the way of the DoDo in Seattle too because you have to run the ball or at least committ to it for it to work.

Have we all forgotten that THE worry with Grubb before he got here was that he wouldnt commit to running the ball??

Well, that reality is here. We have no run game plan, and the lack of a varied, workable plan is compounding whatever issues we have on the line. Issues that are compounded again by the fact that the guy coaching them hasnt ever had to scheme against an NFL defense. EVER.

Between the two of them (Grubb and Huff) i guarantee defensive coordinators are licking their chops every week because they know they are facing a one trick poney who is stubbornly committed to attacking them only with a limited set of tools. What a gift to have your opponent neutralize their own best weapon.

Remember how deadly we looked on offense against the Lions? And that was a pretty good defense we lit up for over 500 yards. Defenses since then have clamped down on what we showed and every week, we look less and less like that offense when the curve SHOULD be turning upward because the unit is MORE familiar with eachother, have more experience, and more plays are added.

Instead, our attack is getting flatter and more predictable.

Defense? Like i said before, it took us 4 weeks to realize our gaps were too wide.
It took us 3 weeks to realize we were playing guys in positions that wouldnt work.
Its taken 8 weeks for us to realize the defensive playbook might be too much too soon.

Folks, we are witnessing the struggles of inexperienced coaching more than anything else.

The defense that Mike built specifically to stop the AFC North 8 out of 17 games might not be EXACTLY the one we need to compete in the NFC West for half of our schedule. The Bengals, Steelers and Browns arent the Niners, Rams and Cards.

The vaunted Ravens D allowed a good bit of yards and point when it played the Niners (only 19 points, but they moved the ball at will, they just turned it over), the Cards and the Rams.

I dont know why the Ravens game against the Lions was so lopsided last year. I only watched the highlights. But in hindsight, i doubt if they played eachother again the result would have been the same. And much of the fawning over Macs D started after that game.

Im not saying our coaches arent the right ones. Mike seems like the real deal. But even he has shown he has a lot to learn to get this team winning consistently.

 

[getnasty]

We are 4-4. We have the talent of a 4-4 team. If we had the best coach in the league we might be 5-3.

People overestimate the talent on this roster. We don't have a player that anyone fears. We don't have a player that will land in the top 50 of this league. Outside of DK we might not have a guy know need to do anything to gameplan against.

Not saying the MM and staff have done anything to elevate this roster in fact I think losing to the Giants would land him a "D" grade for coaching this year. At the same time the old saying "it ain't the X's and O's it the Jimmy's and Joe's" will always be true.

Bill Bilichick was like 20 games under .500 when Tom Brady was on the roster. Some will call him the greatest coach of all-time.

 

[Rat]

How many teams would kill to have our DL and secondary? We have a franchise LT ( Lucas is back practicing, and if he holds up, that's one of the NFL's best young pair of bookends), and one of the better sets of offensive skill players. So many people claim Geno is a top 10 QB (I'll leave it at that). We have tremendous special teams players.

The team isn't complete, but there is plenty of talent here. In a salary cap league, you aren't going to be stacked everywhere. It's not a 3-4 year job.

 

[Rat]

Bill Bilichick was like 20 games under .500 when Tom Brady was on the roster. Some will call him the greatest coach of all-time.

With Belichick, this team is 5-3 at worst right now.

They bottomed out last season with one of the most talentless rosters in recent NFL memory, but in the post-Brady era, Belichick the coach did a fine job with what Belichick the GM left himself. In the first year after Brady, he dragged the corpse of Cam Newton to a 7-9 record, and then went 10-7 and made the playoffs the following season with rookie Mac Jones. He had them consistently playing above their talent, and had some outright inspiring performances on defense.

 

[Ozzy]

I think we VASTLY over rate the talent on this team. We have the worst O-line in the league and a defense that was ranked 30th in the league last year. Thats a set up for some UGLY, UGLY football. Rome wasn't built in a day and Petes first 2 seasons weren't that great. Is there a single player on defense that intimidates opponents and can change a game? I'm not seeing a single one. This is a WEAK roster.

Yeah it feels misguided to think one coach could take a defense that was bottom 3 for 3 straight years with a HOF coach and become an elite defense in one year. Most of those same people think Pete should’ve stayed with this results but the new coach should be fine for completely fixing the last coaches problems in 8 games with limited resources. I don’t get it

 

[GemCity]

I partly agree with not having the talent on this roster. A team could always use a few more dogs.

But their performance is also dictated by formation, scheme, etc.

Last year, everyone claimed Spoon was a dog but now? How about Woolen falling off? Was he not a dog you’d want? Mafe? Nwuso? Big Cat? Tyler…JSN….Fant?

I definitely think we need more talent…which NFL team would reject that? You always need more dogs in the kennel.

But…..beating a dead horse here at this point.

Grubb needs to get his shit together. Plain and simple as that…at least as a start.

 

[pittpnthrs]

What you are essentially saying is that our coaching staff is as good as any.

Give this team to Andy Ried and his staff and things would be different. Give it to Demeco Ryans and it would be different.
Give it to kyle Shanahan it would be different.

I would say Dan Quinn, but i wont.

It doesnt take super human powers to know that teams who dont play together (as a unit) who fight eachother, who have constant mental lapses... those are the hallmarks of badly coached teams at some level. This team does enough dumb stuff to beat itself every week.

I guess i'd ask you - you dont think the fact that our coaching staff is chock full of coaches who are doing their respective jobs in the NFL for the first time has no affect on the product you are seeing on the field? You are honestly looking past the o line coach, d line coach, o coordinator, d coordinator, special teams coach who all have a grand total of 8 weeks doing this, and saying its likely not them... its talent?

Players can smell weakness. They know when a motivational speech falls flat or when a message is off, over inflated or is wrong. The players who have been pkaying this gane longer than the coaches having been coaching it (at this level) know when the playcall is BS or when the correct adjustments arent being made. They know when the guy keading them is lost or unsure. And when those kinds of things happen again and again, trust is lost and chaos begins to reign. Players start to slowly check out and give up.

Do you think DK Metcalf would have ever gotten on a headset with Mike Holmgren and say ' can we call an Fing route that's deeper than the sticks '. The fact that DK is a hot head doesnt matter. He sees his OC and feels as though he can speak to him that way.

The inexperience of this staff in its totality is a huge part of this team's problems.

Mike may be a bonafide defensive genius... running HIS system. But how good is he at adapting that system to the players on this roster? It took him to this week to admit that the D wasnt able to get everything he wabted to do. Is that the players not being smart enough? Or is it a coach assuming that just because his approach worked in one place thats its going to work elsewhere.

Good coaching is adaptable. Sure, these players need to learn the system and how to play it. But if the staff just calls sh+ thats destined to fail because you dont have Roquan Smith in the middle calling things and cant modify their approach... arent they part of the problem?

I dont see a future where we dismantle the D piece by piece to fit an inflexible system as a bright one. Could it work? Maybe. It coukd also result in perennial frustration and defection among players. GOOD players who dont want to deal with a losing system - and Mike and his entire staff being shown the door before they ever sniff success. D

Hoping Mac can right size what he wants to do or tweak it to find success without 100% of the guys he wants to run it. Because i think we havr enough to be much better than we are.

I have a hard time seeing a defense that cant stop the run with a d line of Reed, Williams, Murphy, Nwosu and Mafe as being worth the squeeze. We just added one of the better ILB in the league and have talent in the secondary that is obvious. Pete was blasted for the belief that his system required elite talent to run it. Is that what Mac needs? Or maybe he can figure out you cant have splits along the dline as wide as he used to (splits that effectuvely neutralize the Edge player before the ballis even snapped) earlier than 5 weeks into a season.

Or, maybe the 11 guys on defense are just idiots and cant tell a 3-4 from a 10-4.

I'm not saying our coaching staff is as good as anybody else's (remains to be seen). I'm saying that when a team goes through two different staffs with almost identical results, coaching isn't the biggest contributor.

Yes players are disgruntled and fighting right now. The ones that have put in the work are tired of the others that don't. MM sees this and even has said as much with his quote of "you can't skip steps" or whatever it was. He's going to rid the roster of those guys, but he can't do it right now. It's going to take a season or two. MM has had success on the defensive side of the ball wherever he's been. I don't see why he won't be successful here too, but he needs time to find the players he wants.

If MM and the staff gets shown the door prematurely than the ownership needs to be changed. They deserve a chance to fix what was obviously broken and it's not going to happen overnight or with people that believe that the current roster is championship caliber when it's really not.

 

[pittpnthrs]

What you are essentially saying is that our coaching staff is as good as any.

Give this team to Andy Ried and his staff and things would be different. Give it to Demeco Ryans and it would be different.
Give it to kyle Shanahan it would be different.

Yeah, it would be different, but would it be anymore successful? Reid is an offensive genius with the best QB in the league who's going to be an all time great and one of the best Olines in the league. He would have neither here. Ryans also has a great QB and one of the best RB's in the league not to mention a monster defense while playing in the worst division in football (they just lost to the Jets by the way), and Shanahan's Niner team is loaded (took them years to get there).

Those three successful coaches you mentioned have far superior rosters than the Hawks do. They would all struggle here.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I partly agree with not having the talent on this roster. A team could always use a few more dogs.

But their performance can and is dictated by formation, scheme, etc.

Last year, everyone claimed Spoon was a dog but now? How about Woolen falling off? Was he not a dog you’d want? Mafe? Nwuso? Big Cat? Tyler…JSN….Fant?

I definitely think we need more talent…which NFL team would reject that? You always need more dogs in the kennel.

But…..beating a dead horse here at this point.

Grubb needs to get his shit together. Plain and simple as that…at least as a start.

You listed a lot of dogs there Gem, but the results last season doesn't correspond. MM isn't trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

 

[Appyhawk]

I strongly disagree with anyone who says we lack any talented players, or that our coaches are not good enough to produce winners. It requires high level cohesiveness for a TEAM to win. A TEAM is coaches and players combined. That is why Coach Mac stressed the importance of communication. When you have a different mix of players from one week to the next cohesion suffers. I blame the litany of injuries for our inability to improve at the expected rate. Once we get a lineup that can play together, and do so consistently, our rate of improvement will escalate.
That and improving the talent level on the O Line...

 

[DarkVictory23]

We are 4-4. We have the talent of a 4-4 team. If we had the best coach in the league we might be 5-3.

People overestimate the talent on this roster. We don't have a player that anyone fears. We don't have a player that will land in the top 50 of this league. Outside of DK we might not have a guy know need to do anything to gameplan against.

Not saying the MM and staff have done anything to elevate this roster in fact I think losing to the Giants would land him a "D" grade for coaching this year. At the same time the old saying "it ain't the X's and O's it the Jimmy's and Joe's" will always be true.

Bill Bilichick was like 20 games under .500 when Tom Brady was on the roster. Some will call him the greatest coach of all-time.

I agree and disagree.

On the one hand, we have an Offensive Line that has sat at the bottom of the league for a season a half (and was below average the season before) and being that bad at that position group is pretty much a death knell for most offenses.

But on the other hand, I feel like I could flip about 5 plays and we are 6-2/7-1. Not 'Yeah, instead of a 5 yard run we get a 75 yard TD!' craziness, I mean literal change this fluke bad play into a league average play and we have multiple games that go differently.

We aren't a bad team. We are a team that's sitting at frustratingly average because the potential is there to be better than that.

And I do think it's on coaching more than anything. I agree with Maelstrom that Lofa's mindset is a good one for players to have. And a lot of these fluke plays I would reverse are about individual players making mistakes. (DK's fumbles, Williams errant snap, etc.) But I think what we've failed at on a fundamental level is making the wrong decisions in high leverage moments.

My go to example here is some of the 4th and 1 calls we've made. In general, I actually kind of like that mindset to go for it and we've rarely been on the wrong-side of what the analytics would say is the 'right' move. But I think we've ignored two important things in a lot of these moments. One is a tactical level concern; the other is more 'big picture'.

On the tactical level, I just think we don't have the capability to run effectively in short yardage situations. So, when we go for it on 4th and 1 or 2, even if the analytics say a team 'should' do this, I don't think it factors in what a huge weakness this is for our team.

On the larger scale, I think the damage that comes from us failing in those moments outweighs what we'd gain from being successful. The cumulative effect of these little frustrations on a team that's still finding its identity... we've seen what it does on the sideline. And it takes a very disciplined and confident coaching staff to keep a team together in those moments, which is what we don't have yet.

 

[GemCity]

You listed a lot of dogs there Gem, but the results last season doesn't correspond. MM isn't trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

True.

I agree and disagree.

On the one hand, we have an Offensive Line that has sat at the bottom of the league for a season a half (and was below average the season before) and being that bad at that position group is pretty much a death knell for most offenses.

But on the other hand, I feel like I could flip about 5 plays and we are 6-2/7-1. Not 'Yeah, instead of a 5 yard run we get a 75 yard TD!' craziness, I mean literal change this fluke bad play into a league average play and we have multiple games that go differently.

We aren't a bad team. We are a team that's sitting at frustratingly average because the potential is there to be better than that.

And I do think it's on coaching more than anything. I agree with Maelstrom that Lofa's mindset is a good one for players to have. And a lot of these fluke plays I would reverse are about individual players making mistakes. (DK's fumbles, Williams errant snap, etc.) But I think what we've failed at on a fundamental level is making the wrong decisions in high leverage moments.

My go to example here is some of the 4th and 1 calls we've made. In general, I actually kind of like that mindset to go for it and we've rarely been on the wrong-side of what the analytics would say is the 'right' move. But I think we've ignored two important things in a lot of these moments. One is a tactical level concern; the other is more 'big picture'.

On the tactical level, I just think we don't have the capability to run effectively in short yardage situations. So, when we go for it on 4th and 1 or 2, even if the analytics say a team 'should' do this, I don't think it factors in what a huge weakness this is for our team.

On the larger scale, I think the damage that comes from us failing in those moments outweighs what we'd gain from being successful. The cumulative effect of these little frustrations on a team that's still finding its identity... we've seen what it does on the sideline. And it takes a very disciplined and confident coaching staff to keep a team together in those moments, which is what we don't have yet.

Agree with most.

If you had the chance at five positions to upgrade with average to above average acquisitions, which positions would those be?

O-line is a given for most of us….at least 3 guys there…

I hope Jones works out (unless he wants BIG $$$) but, LB has been killing us. An intimidating, hard-hitting SS would be nice as well.

 

[Ozzy]

I'm not saying our coaching staff is as good as anybody else's (remains to be seen). I'm saying that when a team goes through two different staffs with almost identical results, coaching isn't the biggest contributor.

Yes players are disgruntled and fighting right now. The ones that have put in the work are tired of the others that don't. MM sees this and even has said as much with his quote of "you can't skip steps" or whatever it was. He's going to rid the roster of those guys, but he can't do it right now. It's going to take a season or two. MM has had success on the defensive side of the ball wherever he's been. I don't see why he won't be successful here too, but he needs time to find the players he wants.

If MM and the staff gets shown the door prematurely than the ownership needs to be changed. They deserve a chance to fix what was obviously broken and it's not going to happen overnight or with people that believe that the current roster is championship caliber when it's really not.

Your first point is spot on and for some reason keeps getting ignored in this debate. If this staff is bad then the previous staff was terrible too yet no one is wants to make that connection. It might’ve been you earlier but Macdonald hasn’t broken something that was working, he’s trying to fix something that has been broken.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Your first point is spot on and for some reason keeps getting ignored in this debate. If this staff is bad then the previous staff was terrible too yet no one is wants to make that connection. It might’ve been you earlier but Macdonald hasn’t broken something that was working, he’s trying to fix something that has been broken.

It's ironic that some applauded Pete Carroll for the job he did with the roster he had and now those same people are lambasting the current staff with almost identical results and stating the roster isn't the issue. I don't get it.

 

[DarkVictory23]

True.

Agree with most.

If you had the chance at five positions to upgrade with average to above average acquisitions, which positions would those be?

O-line is a given for most of us….at least 3 guys there…

I hope Jones works out (unless he wants BIG $$$) but, LB has been killing us. An intimidating, hard-hitting SS would be nice as well.

I mean, I could probably use 4 out of the 5 choices on OL if we were guaranteed 'above average', even if it just meant 'above average' health wise for one of the spots.

LB would be the next group I'd look at. TE after that, maybe?


The issue is, I can make an honest case even for this OL if we flip a couple of circumstances. We get even our 2nd string RT back, stop flip flopping at RG, and have Grubb step up his play calling game... could we get these guys close to average? Maybe.

LB, yeah, they've hurt us a lot, but if we simplify our assignments a bit, get Nwosu back, and give Jones IV more time than less than a week on our team, does that help?

Is there a little bit of homer-ism in these assessments? Absolutely, but it is only a little, which is why as frustrating as some of these games have been, I'm not completely down on this season yet.

 

[Chukarhawk]

How many Offensive coordinators are we going to go through? you would think at some point the players would be accountable. This has been an issue for YEARS. It's the same thing every time. The only constant is a trash 0-line yet we run good O coordinators out of here every couple of seasons and get the same results. We are so inept at running the football it boggles the mind. Run blocking is the first thing you learn in pop warner, yet we can't seem to do even basic fundamental tasks. We have defenders in the backfield at the handoff EVERY PLAY. It's been this way for 5 seasons at least. If you suck in the trenches play calling doesn't mean shit.