How can Lock and Geno flourish under our OL.

hawkfan68

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No quarterback with as much rust as Geno had (by being a never play backup to Wilson), was going to come out of the chute firing on all cylinders, but let's be honest, he DID do well enough to earn more respect than he's gotten.
The very fact that Pete & John has shown their confidence in him by not only bringing him back, but giving him a raise to boot is kind of 'Telling'.
As far as Geno not being a "Spring Chicken", neither was Ben Roethlesbooger or Tom Brady, and I'll add, that Geno has a hell of a lot less wear & tear...Geno was playing with a system that was supposedly structured to RUSSELL WILSON'S style of 'Add Lib' play.
Now that the fetters are off of Geno, I'm curious as to how he and/or Drew might do with Waldren's system.
You missed my point completely. I was answering to Keasley45's comment that the coaches - "forget that he was being told to just eat a sack instead of risking a turnover ANDbeing intentionally limited in his role against the Steelers and Saints" I said he wasn't a spring chicken in relation to his experience and the length of time he had been in the league (8 yrs). Please explain how this relates to Ben R and Tom Brady? How have they been limited by their respective coaches? They have not. Smith is in nowhere near the class of those QBs.

You could make an argument on how he ranks against Nick Foles, Tyrod Taylor, Mason Rudolph, Blaine Gabbert, and Teddy Bridgewater. He'd be near the bottom of that list too.

Personally I have nothing against Geno Smith. I just don't believe after 8 years in the league that he will be anything more than what he is - a below average to average backup. I'll be happy to eat crow if I'm wrong about him but as of now I don't see it.
 
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toffee

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You missed my point completely. I was answering to Keasley45's comment that the coaches - "forget that he was being told to just eat a sack instead of risking a turnover ANDbeing intentionally limited in his role against the Steelers and Saints" I said he wasn't a spring chicken in relation to his experience and the length of time he had been in the league (8 yrs). Please explain how this relates to Ben R and Tom Brady? How have they been limited by their respective coaches? They have not. Smith is in nowhere near the class of those QBs.

You could make an argument on how he ranks against Nick Foles, Tyrod Taylor, Mason Rudolph, Blaine Gabbert, and Teddy Bridgewater. He'd be near the bottom of that list too.

Personally I have nothing against Geno Smith. I just don't believe after 8 years in the league that he will be anything more than what he is - a below average to average backup. I'll be happy to eat crow if I'm wrong about him but as of now I don't see it.
I do think your assessment on Geno being a below average to average backup. like you, I will be very happy to ear crow. I do, however, see Geno being better than Blaine Gabbert, and Mason Rudolph, on par with Teddy and Tyrod. lol, may be just me, a homer.
 

Chuckwow

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No quarterback with as much rust as Geno had (by being a never play backup to Wilson), was going to come out of the chute firing on all cylinders, but let's be honest, he DID do well enough to earn more respect than he's gotten.
The very fact that Pete & John has shown their confidence in him by not only bringing him back, but giving him a raise to boot is kind of 'Telling'.
As far as Geno not being a "Spring Chicken", neither was Ben Roethlesbooger or Tom Brady, and I'll add, that Geno has a hell of a lot less wear & tear...Geno was playing with a system that was supposedly structured to RUSSELL WILSON'S style of 'Add Lib' play.
Now that the fetters are off of Geno, I'm curious as to how he and/or Drew might do with Waldren's system.
Great post.

The one thing we do know about Geno is he isn't going to start any Let Geno Cook campaigns or use the media to play b*tch games with a franchise that made him rich beyond his wildest imagination. He's not going to be busy with his wife's career or posing like Prince on instagram. I doubt he'll even create an alter-ego or alienate his team mates.

Take all that horsesh*t away and the gap between Geno and Mr. Unlimited likely diminishes. I believe what Geno will do in this Waldren O is just exactly what he's told to do. Novel. Refreshing.

I know this is a thread on whether our guys can pass pro or not but they sure did a great job of opening some holes for Penny the last several games. Now we have Penny fighting for a contract and Walker trying his best to establish himself as RB1. We all know that in itself will help Geno / Lock immensely. Vegas has our win total at 5.5? Tough schedule but I'll go with the O.
 

Scout

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People are under estimating Geno Smith. Geno Smith in college was a point guard by being able to pass it around to weapons in that offensive system. Also consider the possibility that while the team was scouting Bruce Irvin that they were also building a scouting profile with Geno Smith.
 

nwHawk

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Yeah, forget that he was being told to just eat a sack instead of risking a turnover AND being intentionally limited in his role against the Steelers and Saints, clipboard Geno managed to post a 68% completion rate, 5 to 1 TD / INT ration, and set the franchise record for consecutive completed passes.

Russel couldnt buy a first down through the air last year and is barely average over his career. better QB overall than Geno? Sure. But lets not pretend the offense wasnt a bit hamstrung already by a QB whos completion percentage on 3rd down was 59% for his career.
For context, last year, Russel Wilson's 3rd down completion percentage was 48%, Locks - 59%, Geno - 68%

Career wise? Russ - 56%, Lock 56%, Geno 57%. Russ is undoubtedly over his career the more accomplished player and phenomenal and talented competitor who managed to work around his deficiencies, but when you judge specific statistical performance in key situations like getting the ball out or passing on known passing downs... the drop-off, well there is none. Where Russ was deficient, the guys we have in the stable now have the potential to be competent, and with Waldron, maybe better than that. Will they have Russ's magic? Nope. But they might not need it if they can work within Waldron's syetem, rely on the playcall and an understanding of the cheme to win the down, and limit the errors that they've struggled with in the past.
This is partly why I have been optimistic about moving on from 3. I think fans might be a bit surprised next season.
 

keasley45

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You might consider why they would ask him to do that (Geno Smith isn't a spring chicken, he's been in the league for 8 yrs). Most likely because they lack the confidence in the said player to make the necessary play.
They did the same thing with Russ early on. And by Geno's 3rd start, they no longer limited him and he played well. Its just that many around here dismiss his 3rd performance because it was against the Jags... as if they arent an NFL defense. Its not as though every QB that played the Jags last year had the success that Geno did. How many others played a near perfect game AND set their teams franchise record for completions? None. Just Geno. Say nothing for the fact that he did it in only his 3rd start, in a new offense, and after not starting for several years.

Is he the next coming? Nope. Can he be better than what he's been? I think his last performance would indicate that he can. And, do he and Lock have an ally in an OC that can script a gameplan that makes the most of their ability and by virtue of the playcall and design itself, simplifies reads, schemes wr's open, and in doing so make the qb'ing process a bit easier? i think, yes.

I think this is a prime example of the total sum of the pieces being far better than the value you'd assign to any individual part. If KW3 can be in the NFL what he was in college and team with Penny to come anywhere close to what our running game showed toward the end of last year, we will be formidable on the ground. If a retooled defense and approach that other teams have no scouting report on can, as they did in 2012 and 2013, play fast, free and violently, limiting opponents offensive possessions, we'll limit deficits and give our guys the ball at a higher rate than LAST place (thats where we finished last year). And if our QB can play smart ball within a system driven by an innovative OC who comes from a system that sent J GOFF to the superbowl... i think we will be MUCH better than the naysayers think we will.
 

Jville

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I would think that a corollary to the original thread title question might read ....

How well will our OL flourish under Lock or Geno or other quarterback if passes are launch from planned and practiced locations in support of the new offense?​


A follow up question might also consider the benefit to wide receivers who may more confidently know where and when to look for the ball.
 

scutterhawk

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You missed my point completely. I was answering to Keasley45's comment that the coaches - "forget that he was being told to just eat a sack instead of risking a turnover ANDbeing intentionally limited in his role against the Steelers and Saints" I said he wasn't a spring chicken in relation to his experience and the length of time he had been in the league (8 yrs). Please explain how this relates to Ben R and Tom Brady? How have they been limited by their respective coaches? They have not. Smith is in nowhere near the class of those QBs.

You could make an argument on how he ranks against Nick Foles, Tyrod Taylor, Mason Rudolph, Blaine Gabbert, and Teddy Bridgewater. He'd be near the bottom of that list too.

Personally I have nothing against Geno Smith. I just don't believe after 8 years in the league that he will be anything more than what he is - a below average to average backup. I'll be happy to eat crow if I'm wrong about him but as of now I don't see it.
YOUR "POINT"> "Geno is Not a Spring Chicken", I said neither Big Ben nor Tom Brady were "Spring Chickens" either, so I missed Nothing.
You're also dismissing how Crappy the team was that he played for before coming to Seattle and starting his dust covered Barnicle Collection, sitting behind Iron Man Wilson.
Some of y'all be thinking that he should have been able to come out of the chute fully seasoned, playing instant mesh football with Russ's Offense & Key Targets at full speed? Not a very realistic line of thinking IMHO
As it turned out in his small sample of three & a quarter games, I think he made a damn decent showing, and hell, one could only imagine just how much better he'd have had it if Penny were playing like he did going down the stretch, eh?
I'm not saying he's our end-all-be-all @ Quarterback, BUT I'm not ready to write him off like many here do/have done, without seeing how he handles the challenges ahead.
 

FrodosFinger

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Whenever you get thrown into the fire with years of no action and post a 68% completion percentage and a passer rating of 103.8 it makes you raise an eyebrow at the possibilities and potential Geno will have with a full training camp going in as the projected starter. Forget about the record just look at the weapons he'll have at his disposal. Could be scary good to be honest. His arm has never been in doubt
 

Spin Doctor

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YOUR "POINT"> "Geno is Not a Spring Chicken", I said neither Big Ben nor Tom Brady were "Spring Chickens" either, so I missed Nothing.
You're also dismissing how Crappy the team was that he played for before coming to Seattle and starting his dust covered Barnicle Collection, sitting behind Iron Man Wilson.
Some of y'all be thinking that he should have been able to come out of the chute fully seasoned, playing instant mesh football with Russ's Offense & Key Targets at full speed? Not a very realistic line of thinking IMHO
As it turned out in his small sample of three & a quarter games, I think he made a damn decent showing, and hell, one could only imagine just how much better he'd have had it if Penny were playing like he did going down the stretch, eh?
I'm not saying he's our end-all-be-all @ Quarterback, BUT I'm not ready to write him off like many here do/have done, without seeing how he handles the challenges ahead.
He had a mediocre showing. He did exactly what he's always done, faltered when the pressure is on. That has always been his weakness as a passer. The guy is not a good passer. I could see his numbers being career highs, but not being able to close out a game. Also realize, that he had an extremely small sample size. If we extrapolate over a seasons worth of games, it's very likely he falls off -- especially as more tape on him in Seattle's offense gets circulated around.

Our QB depth chart is among the weakest in the NFL now. I'm personally just looking forward to a fresh start and games to be relatively close. Watching these guys isn't going to be pretty.
 
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He had a mediocre showing. He did exactly what he's always done, faltered when the pressure is on. That has always been his weakness as a passer. The guy is not a good passer. I could see his numbers being career highs, but not being able to close out a game. Also realize, that he had an extremely small sample size. If we extrapolate over a seasons worth of games, it's very likely he falls off -- especially as more tape on him in Seattle's offense gets circulated around.

Our QB depth chart is among the weakest in the NFL now. I'm personally just looking forward to a fresh start and games to be relatively close. Watching these guys isn't going to be pretty.
Very few QB could be poised under pressure, according to Bill Walsh. he drafted Montana mainly because of that. And Montana rewarded Walsh with his coolness and stepping up under pressure. Most QB that could step up and stay cool under pressure are elite.

Geno? so long he could preform at Jimmy G's level, we will win 9 games.
 

keasley45

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He had a mediocre showing. He did exactly what he's always done, faltered when the pressure is on. That has always been his weakness as a passer. The guy is not a good passer. I could see his numbers being career highs, but not being able to close out a game. Also realize, that he had an extremely small sample size. If we extrapolate over a seasons worth of games, it's very likely he falls off -- especially as more tape on him in Seattle's offense gets circulated around.

Our QB depth chart is among the weakest in the NFL now. I'm personally just looking forward to a fresh start and games to be relatively close. Watching these guys isn't going to be pretty.

A little bit of context helps. Geno moved an offense against the Rams in a way Wilson couldn't against teams for more than 2 quarters for most of 2021. He 'faltered ' against the Rams because Lockett fell. The pass was perfect. He 'faltered ' against the Steelers because our O-line was getting manhandled by a one man wrecking crew in TJ Watt who strip sacked him from his blindside.

The Saints game was Pete pulling a Belichick and trying to prove a point i think that we could win with just the run. Geno wasn't asked to do anything, but even in the game , we lost on a missed, blatant PI call on a ball that likely would have been caught to continue a drive. And had our kicker nit crapped the bed, we would have won that game regardless.

You can point to his pre Hawks days as reason to doubt him, but nothing he put on tape while with us gives and real reason to think he's hopeless. And worst qbs in the league? I'd rather roll with our guys than Pittsburghs, Carolinas, Washington's, Miami's, Chicago's, Detroit's, and probably one or two others. At least we aren't paying a Carson Wentz to throw games away, pretending he's the guy he was for half a season 7 years ago.

We have two guys that haven't yet shown what they can do with good coaching, weapons, and a scheme that doesn't require them to be THE guy.
 

Rainger

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Assuming that we will go into next season with Geno and Lock, how could they survive our 'awful' OL? I am of the opinion that if they failed, OL won't be the major factor. Unless our OL regressed. Following from Profootball references on pocket time and QB pressure:

Pocket time, statistically, our OL provided average if not above average pocket time of 2.4 seconds. Most A list QBs had less time, or shall we assume that they needed less time? We are talking about 2.1sec for Big Ben, 2.2 sec for Rodgers, 2.3 sec for Brady, Murray, Burrow, and Mahomes;

View attachment 11362

QB pressure, 12s and most talking heads assumed our OL was bad due to constant QB pressure, but there is more to that stat! None of those QBs above having less than 2.4 secs had high QB pressure %! That led to my assumptions those QB didn't get 2.4sec? they didn't need 2.4sec. Getting rid of the ball with quick release, quick decisions, and plays designed for short pocket time.

Top 10 QB pressure % all had 2.4 sec or above. Pressure was often the by product of failure to get rid of the ball quickly.

View attachment 11363

Going forward, Waldron must preach and insist quick read, and quick release. Our OL will love them for that and far less wear and tear on OL and QB. Why Brady is the GOAT? dude had 2.3 sec but only 11.1% qb pressure, and sack only 22 times in 17 games. Wilson had 2.4 seconds but 27% qb pressure and was sacked 33 times in 14 games.

Geno is in limited games held the ball a bit, Lock in his films wasn't decisive enough, both got area to work on and improve.
EASY, we never had a bad line we had a QB that used them as an excuse cause he could never pull the quick trigger.
 

scutterhawk

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He had a mediocre showing. He did exactly what he's always done, faltered when the pressure is on. That has always been his weakness as a passer. The guy is not a good passer. I could see his numbers being career highs, but not being able to close out a game. Also realize, that he had an extremely small sample size. If we extrapolate over a seasons worth of games, it's very likely he falls off -- especially as more tape on him in Seattle's offense gets circulated around.

Our QB depth chart is among the weakest in the NFL now. I'm personally just looking forward to a fresh start and games to be relatively close. Watching these guys isn't going to be pretty.
You are right in that as Defenses see more "Tape" of his play, they will adjust accordingly, BUT it's also a Fact, that the more he (or Drew for that matter) PLAYS & works at developing continuity, adapts to the unique skills of their Receivers, Running Backs, & with the O-Line, the more the playbook will open up for them.
Russ had how many years (Continuity) to meld with his Receivers, TE's & hone his craft?
You, me & everybody else HERE have to quit comparing Geno (or Drew Lock) to Russ, or to any other Non-Seahawk Quarterback, as we don't actually know how adept they (Geno or Drew) are at absorbing, and implementing their newfound Offensive concepts.
Could they struggle & maybe even fail? sure, but if Waldron could take a "Run of the Mill" Quarterback like Goff & grow his game?
I'm going to take a "Wait & See" "Chill Pill" before calling it quits on either Geno Smith or Drew Lock.
 
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TwistedHusky

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The word 'flourish' is clearly being misused here. Nobody is flourishing with these QBs. We might be able to make it work despite them.

We might be able to spin again and get a good QB with the right draft pick.

There is no reasonable expectation of having a great offense with these guys. We are just looking to tread water here.

And even the fans know this, that is why there is a thread on the top page asking about whether we might get Baker Mayfield. A guy that couldn't even carry a borderline stacked Browns team....
(But even Baker would be a trade up from what we have and plenty of our fans seem to know this.)

We might be able to 'make it work' with one of these QBs. But the chance of anyone 'flourishing' is low.
 

Chukarhawk

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Very few QB could be poised under pressure, according to Bill Walsh. he drafted Montana mainly because of that. And Montana rewarded Walsh with his coolness and stepping up under pressure. Most QB that could step up and stay cool under pressure are elite.

Geno? so long he could preform at Jimmy G's level, we will win 9 games.
What? how would that magically happen? If we had Jimmy we would win 7-9 games. Geno isn't going to just up and become a starting caliber QB. Lock might, but Geno? No, never in a million Sundays. Dude is really not good.
 

chrispy

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The QBs and their past/future performances will be fun to watch play out. I think one of the most anticipated aspects of the upcoming season will be how the new OL performs and (more importantly) gets better game-to-game.

Over the past few years, I've woken up in a cold sweat many nights dreaming about walking up to the line as Center with a called 5yd crossing route to Lockett. HUT. engage 1-mississippi. I watch Lockett open up between LBs in front of me and that roller-coaster-excitement feeling flashes in my gut. 2 mississippi. He disappears behind the Mike and I try to hold my block for another 2 more seconds: excitement turns to anxiety, 3 mississippi blind to an uncalled boot-leg behind me I try to keep up with the D as everyone shifts. Wait, which way now... Did he turn back? 4-mississippi I know the ball is destined to sail into double coverage 30yds downfield...again. Maybe it'll work... Why am I here...?

I don't know how the new QB and OL will play together, but I hope I can stop with this recurring nightmare every Sunday night... I expect 2022 brings the PNW a decline in Melatonin supplements and babbling brook background noises if not all Monday morning therapy sessions. Run-Run-Out, Run-Run-Slant, Run-Run-Run...deep breaths...off to sleep. 7 minute drives... Time of Posession... 2 headed monsters... relax... Ahhhh
 
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toffee

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One big factor in an O Line ranking as great is how quickly their QB gets rid of the ball, not how long he can and does hold onto it. If our QB can play Waldron ball our line will do just fine.
Nailed it, absolutely nailed it.

Tom Brady suffered 11.1% of QB pressure, lowest in the league, but he only had 2.3sec of pocket time. #2 of lowest QB pressure was Stafford, 16.3% of QB pressure, he had 2.4 sec. #4 was Big Ben, 18.6% over 2.1sec., yes pocket time was only 2.1 sec, lowest in the league.

Wilson? 27%, #28 in the league, over the same 2.4 sec.

My deduction came to Brady got rid if his ball at 2.3 sec, Big Ben gotten rid of his ball at 2.1 sec., their OL probably could hold a big longer. Wilson's case was the opposite, he needed 4 seconds, he started his running backwards at 2.4 sec, his running in circles often bought him the extra second or two.
 
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