House of the Dragon

RolandDeschain

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What "fumbled ending"? Daenerys was obviously a megalomaniac all along. The fact that she freed slaves made people think she was a "good guy," but the signs of her being only interested in what was good for her were there all along. Multiple characters, including Daenerys herself, reflect on there being a history of mental illness in her family and wonder if she has it. With all the inbreeding, it's more than just idle speculation. Anyway, I have to laugh my ass off at the dumbasses who hadn't read the books and named their children things like "Khaleesi" during earlier seasons of the TV show.
Either your memory is just crap, or you enjoy rewriting history. The 5th book is still the last in the series that has been released as of yet, and at the end of that, Dany is in the grass fields with Drogon trying to get him to take her back to Meereen. Additionally, her mental thought processes in the books - which did not make their way into the TV show - show a sane and clear head throughout all five books released to date. Think about how many times she says to herself in the books, "If I look back I am lost" before making a decision that is good, and not crazy or bad.

I think you might just be making crap up about "book Daenerys", to be honest. Prove otherwise - list a chapter/page/whatever that is evidence toward your assertion. It's highly unlikely she was ever going to go "mad queen" in the books, though the TV show made damned sure she won't no matter what.

Now, back on topic. I had a lot of reservations about House of the Dragon up to its release. The first episode has mostly nullified them, however; it was a GREAT opening to the series. I thought a couple of times throughout the first episode that I recognized the cinematography and the music. Sure enough, I was absolutely thrilled to see Miguel Sapochnik as the director (look him up on IMDB, he basically directed at least half of the 10 greatest GoT episodes ever made), and Ramin Djawadi for the score. I can't wait to watch the next episode in <checks watch> 38 minutes and counting.
 

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Either your memory is just crap, or you enjoy rewriting history. The 5th book is still the last in the series that has been released as of yet, and at the end of that, Dany is in the grass fields with Drogon trying to get him to take her back to Meereen. Additionally, her mental thought processes in the books - which did not make their way into the TV show - show a sane and clear head throughout all five books released to date. Think about how many times she says to herself in the books, "If I look back I am lost" before making a decision that is good, and not crazy or bad.

I think you might just be making crap up about "book Daenerys", to be honest. Prove otherwise - list a chapter/page/whatever that is evidence toward your assertion. It's highly unlikely she was ever going to go "mad queen" in the books, though the TV show made damned sure she won't no matter what.

Now, back on topic. I had a lot of reservations about House of the Dragon up to its release. The first episode has mostly nullified them, however; it was a GREAT opening to the series. I thought a couple of times throughout the first episode that I recognized the cinematography and the music. Sure enough, I was absolutely thrilled to see Miguel Sapochnik as the director (look him up on IMDB, he basically directed at least half of the 10 greatest GoT episodes ever made), and Ramin Djawadi for the score. I can't wait to watch the next episode in <checks watch> 38 minutes and counting.

Daenerys and others frequently wonder if she is or will be afflicted with the same madness as Aerys II was.

Ser Barristan, after everything the Lannisters do to him in the wake of Robert's death, goes to try to find Viserys, whose claim to the throne Barristan wants to support. Barristan finds out that Viserys is dead, and he finds Daenerys. I think it's in A Clash of Kings that he assumes a different identity in order to observe Daenerys and see if she has the same mental illness as her father.
A key point is in one of the Daenerys chapters of A Storm of Swords. First, Daenerys reflects a little on her own actions:
All my victories turn to dross in my hands, she thought. Whatever I do, all I make is death and
horror.

When Barristan appears before her, they have the following exchange:
She turned to Ser Barristan. “You protected my father for
many years, fought beside my brother on the Trident, but you abandoned Viserys in his exile and
bent your knee to the Usurper instead. Why? And tell it true.”
“Some truths are hard to hear. Robert was a... a good knight... chivalrous, brave... he spared my
life, and the lives of many others... Prince Viserys was only a boy, it would have been years
before he was fit to rule, and... forgive me, my queen, but you asked for truth... even as a child,
your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father’s son, in ways that Rhaegar never did.”
“His father’s son?” Dany frowned. “What does that mean?”
The old knight did not blink. “Your father is called ‘the Mad King’ in Westeros. Has no one
ever told you?”
“Viserys did.” The Mad King. “The Usurper called him that, the Usurper and his dogs.” The
Mad King. “It was a lie.”
“Why ask for truth,” Ser Barristan said softly, “if you close your ears to it?” He hesitated, then
continued. “I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that Id
joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a
time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not...”
“... my father’s daughter?” If she was not her father’s daughter, who was she?
“... mad,” he finished. “But I see no taint in you.”
“Taint?” Dany bristled.
“I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books.
But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father
was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the
same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the
world holds its breath to see how it will land.”

This is the first moment when Daenerys begins to accept the possibility that "the Mad King" wasn't an unfair nickname for her father. After this, she thinks about it quite a bit. And Barristan is not the only one who wonders about the possibility of Daenerys ending up like her father. Barristan is the one who dares to tell her directly. And yes, he does end up saying in the passage above that he sees no sign of the "taint" in her and he does end up joining her. But he's far from the last to wonder if she will go nuts or has gone nuts. Daenerys herself does!

In the same chapter, we get this:
That morning she summoned her captains and commanders to the garden, rather than
descending to the audience chamber. “Aegon the Conqueror brought fire and blood to Westeros,
but afterward he gave them peace, prosperity, and justice. But all I have brought to Slaver’s Bay
is death and ruin. I have been more khal than queen, smashing and plundering, then moving on.”
“There is nothing to stay for,” said Brown Ben Plumm.
“Your Grace, the slavers brought their doom on themselves,” said Daario Naharis.
“You have brought freedom as well,” Missandei pointed out.
“Freedom to starve?” asked Dany sharply. “Freedom to die? Am I a dragon, or a harpy?” Am I
mad? Do I have the taint?

Again, Daenerys is wondering if she's already got her father's (and the inbred Targaren family's) could-be-hereditary madness.

In one of the Daenerys chapters of A Dance With Dragons, Quaith appears to Daenerys. Missandei interrupts their conversation, and Daenerys wonders if she imagined the whole thing, and if that could be a sign she's following in her father's footsteps:
“Your Grace?” Missandei stood in the door of the queen’s bed-
chamber, a lantern in her hand. “Who are you talking to?”

Dany glanced back toward the persimmon tree. There was no
woman there. No hooded robe, no lacquer mask, no Quaithe.
A shadow. A memory. No one. She was the blood of the dragon,
but Ser Barristan had warned her that in that blood there was a taint.
Could I be going mad? They had called her father mad, once. “I was
praying,” she told the Naathi girl. “It will be light soon. I had best eat
something, before court.”

Daenerys accepts that her father was crazy, and this is one example of a moment when she wonders if she herself will end up with the same madness as her father.

The "The Windblown" chapter of A Dance With Dragons contains the following:
Wed her or fight her; either way, I will face her soon. The more
Quentyn heard of Daenerys Targaryen, the more he feared that meet-
ing. The Yunkai’i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh
and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and sup-
ple. Beans laughed at that but relished the tales of the silver queen’s
promiscuity. “One of her captains comes of a line where the men
have foot-long members,” he told them, “but even he’s not big enough
for her. She rode with the Dothraki and grew accustomed to being
****** by stallions, so now no man can fill her.” And Books, the clever
Volantene swordsman who always seemed to have his nose poked in
some crumbly scroll, thought the dragon queen both murderous and
mad. “Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed
her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as
easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She’s bro-
ken truces, tortured envoys ... her father was mad too. It runs in the
blood.”
It runs in the blood. King Aerys II had been mad, all of Westeros
knew that. He had exiled two of his Hands and burned a third. If
Daenerys is as murderous as her father, must I still marry her? Prince
Doran had never spoken of that possibility.

While there's obvious exaggeration in some of the things people have heard about Daenerys, it is completely true that she breaks truces, tortures envoys, and uses the dragons to kill people. And this is just one more example of other characters wondering if the same madness that affected Aerys II might also be affecting Daenerys.

In the epilogue of A Dance With Dragons, we get the following:
“We have these tales coming from the east as well. A sec-
ond Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys
Stormborn.”
“As mad as her father,” declared Lord Mace Tyrell

It's a pretty common perception at that point. The passage continues:
That would be the same father that Highgarden and House Tyrell
supported to the bitter end and well beyond.
“Mad she may be,” Ser
Kevan said, “but with so much smoke drifting west, surely there must
be some fire burning in the east.”
Grand Maester Pycelle bobbed his head. “Dragons. These same
stories have reached Oldtown. Too many to discount. A silver-haired
queen with three dragons.”
“At the far end of the world,” said Mace Tyrell. “Queen of Slaver’s
Bay, aye. She is welcome to it.”
“On that we can agree,” Ser Kevan said, “but the girl is of the blood
of Aegon the Conqueror, and I do not think she will be content to re-
main in Meereen forever. If she should reach these shores and join
her strength to Lord Connington and this prince of his, feigned or
no ... we must destroy Connington and his pretender now, before
Daenerys Stormborn can come west.”

Here Ser Kevan is expressing another concern that comes up in the thoughts of Daenerys herself and of others thinking about her. In addition to wondering if she has or will end up with Aerys II's madness, they wonder if she might be like Aegon the Conqueror and need to try to take everything.

Further, she is very clearly a megalomaniac, insisting on that ridiculous title/name it takes minutes to say and clearly believing she is meant to rule over all other people and that she is better and more important than other people.

A little past what's actually been published in books, GRRM has made available 11 sample chapters from The Winds of Winter. Two are from the point of view of Dornish princess Arianne and were written by 2015. One appeared on GRRM's site in January of 2013, and the other was read at a convention in 2015 and then put up on GRRM's site in May of 2016. In the second Arianne chapter, we get the following:
Elsewise the crossing was uneventful. At dusk they spied a galley in the distance, her oars rising and falling against the evening stars, but she was moving away from them, and soon dwindled and was gone. Arianne played a game of cyvasse with Ser Daemon, and another one with Garibald Shells, and somehow managed to lose both. Ser Garibald was kind enough to say that she played a gallant game, but Daemon mocked her. "You have other pieces beside the dragon, princess. Try moving them sometime."
"I like the dragon." She wanted to slap the smile off his face. Or kiss it off, perhaps. The man was as smug as he was comely. Of all the knights in Dorne, why did my father chose this one to be my shield? He knows our history. "It is just a game. Tell me of Prince Viserys."
"The Beggar King?" Ser Daemon seemed surprised.
"Everyone says that Prince Rhaegar was beautiful. Was Viserys beautiful as well?"
"I suppose. He was Targaryen. I never saw the man."
The secret pact that Prince Doran had made all those years called for Arianne to be wed to Prince Viserys, not Quentyn to Daenerys. It had all come undone on the Dothraki sea, when he was murdered. Crowned with a pot of molten gold. "He was killed by a Dothraki khal," said Arianne. "The dragon queen's own husband."
"So I've heard. What of it?"
"Just... why did Daenerys let it happen? Viserys was her brother. All that remained of her own blood."
"The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand."
Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King's daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know -- "
"We cannot know," Ser Daemon said. "We can only hope."

These are just a few examples, but I have to admit I was surprised anyone, especially anyone who has actually read some of the books, would accuse me of making up the idea that Daenerys is clearly presented as a megalomaniac, and of making up the idea that other characters and Daenerys herself wonder a bunch of times whether Daenerys has or will have the same mental illness as her father.
 
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Sgt. Largent

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I like most still have some PTSD about how GOT ended.

But I've thoroughly enjoyed House of Dragons so far. Nothing on TV has this sort of beautiful tragic ballet of tension, suspense, violence and emotion........all within an insane cinematic universe.
 

RolandDeschain

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Daenerys and others frequently wonder if she is or will be afflicted with the same madness as Aerys II was.
This is completely irrelevant. Wondering if she's touched by the family curse has nothing to do with whether she is mad, or trending toward "mad queen" Daenerys.

Ser Barristan, after everything the Lannisters do to him in the wake of Robert's death, goes to try to find Viserys, whose claim to the throne Barristan wants to support. Barristan finds out that Viserys is dead, and he finds Daenerys. I think it's in A Clash of Kings that he assumes a different identity in order to observe Daenerys and see if she has the same mental illness as her father.
A key point is in one of the Daenerys chapters of A Storm of Swords. First, Daenerys reflects a little on her own actions:


When Barristan appears before her, they have the following exchange:


This is the first moment when Daenerys begins to accept the possibility that "the Mad King" wasn't an unfair nickname for her father. After this, she thinks about it quite a bit. And Barristan is not the only one who wonders about the possibility of Daenerys ending up like her father. Barristan is the one who dares to tell her directly. And yes, he does end up saying in the passage above that he sees no sign of the "taint" in her and he does end up joining her. But he's far from the last to wonder if she will go nuts or has gone nuts. Daenerys herself does!
This is just her becoming willing to admit that her FATHER was mad, that has NOTHING to do with whether Daenerys herself is mad or not, lol.

In the same chapter, we get this:


Again, Daenerys is wondering if she's already got her father's (and the inbred Targaren family's) could-be-hereditary madness.

In one of the Daenerys chapters of A Dance With Dragons, Quaith appears to Daenerys. Missandei interrupts their conversation, and Daenerys wonders if she imagined the whole thing, and if that could be a sign she's following in her father's footsteps:


Daenerys accepts that her father was crazy, and this is one example of a moment when she wonders if she herself will end up with the same madness as her father.

The "The Windblown" chapter of A Dance With Dragons contains the following:


While there's obvious exaggeration in some of the things people have heard about Daenerys, it is completely true that she breaks truces, tortures envoys, and uses the dragons to kill people. And this is just one more example of other characters wondering if the same madness that affected Aerys II might also be affecting Daenerys.

In the epilogue of A Dance With Dragons, we get the following:


It's a pretty common perception at that point. The passage continues:


Here Ser Kevan is expressing another concern that comes up in the thoughts of Daenerys herself and of others thinking about her. In addition to wondering if she has or will end up with Aerys II's madness, they wonder if she might be like Aegon the Conqueror and need to try to take everything.
Again, people WONDERING is irrelevant.

Further, she is very clearly a megalomaniac, insisting on that ridiculous title/name it takes minutes to say and clearly believing she is meant to rule over all other people and that she is better and more important than other people.
Insisting on the title? I mean, how many other characters insist on the use of their titles in GoT? Plenty.

A little past what's actually been published in books, GRRM has made available 11 sample chapters from The Winds of Winter. Two are from the point of view of Dornish princess Arianne and were written by 2015. One appeared on GRRM's site in January of 2013, and the other was read at a convention in 2015 and then put up on GRRM's site in May of 2016. In the second Arianne chapter, we get the following:


These are just a few examples, but I have to admit I was surprised anyone, especially anyone who has actually read some of the books, would accuse me of making up the idea that Daenerys is clearly presented as a megalomaniac, and of making up the idea that other characters and Daenerys herself wonder a bunch of times whether Daenerys has or will have the same mental illness as her father.
You are the one bringing up megalomania, not me. Dany questioning whether she has the taint is the result of seeing how the cities she conquered prior to Meereen had turned out after she left. She went to them and FREED SLAVES, that is not "mad queen" stuff. Regarding Quaithe, no one knows if she's real or imaginary. Also, I don't recall her torturing envoys; can you tell me where that part is, in the books? As far as Lord Mace Tyrell saying she's mad, lol, half the stuff they've said about her in the small council is wrong and he's not a smart character, anyway.

Literally almost all of your examples are other characters either WONDERING if she's mad or saying she is based on lies. What is wrong with you? I will ask it again: Show us EVIDENCE that she is mad, or going mad, from the books. I can wonder if you're an alien from the planet Vulcan, that doesn't mean you are, for Christ's sake. Show me a decision Dany has made in the books where, before you knew how it turned out, a logical human being on planet Earth would say "Yep, that's bat-shit crazy, alright." I'm not talking about other characters calling her crazy, I am talking about a decision BY HER that was CRAZY to make.
 

fenderbender123

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Regardless of what the books say, the TV show always painted her as somebody who's fuse is gonna blow some day. I never got the feeling that she was going to be good at the end.
 

RolandDeschain

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Regardless of what the books say, the TV show always painted her as somebody who's fuse is gonna blow some day. I never got the feeling that she was going to be good at the end.
I'd say the first thing in the show that might have painted her this way would be her decision to nail up 163 of the masters outside Meereen because they did that to slaves for her march to their city, and that was season four. What's an earlier example?
 

fenderbender123

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I'd say the first thing in the show that might have painted her this way would be her decision to nail up 163 of the masters outside Meereen because they did that to slaves for her march to their city, and that was season four. What's an earlier example?

Her general attitude and demeanor. The way she talks. The way she carries herself. The look in her eyes. The way she expects everyone to do as she says. She says the right things to come across as good. But she didn't have that protagonist style demeanor. And everything she did could be explained away as her knowing that she needed to do all these things to get the power she wanted.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but did she ever talk about plans to make the world a better place once she was on the throne? All I recall is her talking about how it's rightfully hers, and how she despises Queen Lannister for being on the throne. Power hungry all the way.
 

chris98251

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When your disposed from a Throne and Royalty you may have a bit of an ego and chip on your shoulder, all you have to do is look at todays leaders who were not even born into rule.
 

fenderbender123

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When your disposed from a Throne and Royalty you may have a bit of an ego and chip on your shoulder, all you have to do is look at todays leaders who were not even born into rule.

This is a great point. She had nothing else to live for other than her heritage. She clung to it. It was her baby. And nothing was gonna stand in her way.
 

Sgt. Largent

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When your disposed from a Throne and Royalty you may have a bit of an ego and chip on your shoulder, all you have to do is look at todays leaders who were not even born into rule.

But Dany was on her way to sitting on the Iron Throne. She had the backing of most of the kingdoms as the great Liberator, AND she had Jon's hand AND had dragons.

IMO the writers did her dirty by having her do a complete 180 and go all chaotic evil. My guess is they wanted the big dramatic death for her at the hands of Jon, and this was the only way they could set it up in the abbreviated time they were given because the producers wanted the show over.

But just one of many unsatisfying plot arc endings.
 

RolandDeschain

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Her general attitude and demeanor. The way she talks. The way she carries herself. The look in her eyes. The way she expects everyone to do as she says. She says the right things to come across as good. But she didn't have that protagonist style demeanor. And everything she did could be explained away as her knowing that she needed to do all these things to get the power she wanted.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but did she ever talk about plans to make the world a better place once she was on the throne? All I recall is her talking about how it's rightfully hers, and how she despises Queen Lannister for being on the throne. Power hungry all the way.
I think you're seeing her how you want to see her based on the ending, but your question about if she ever spoke about plans to make the world a better place once she was on the throne is laughable. She had control of the throne for like six seconds (a bit facetious) before Jon Snow killed her.

Also, back on topic; four episodes in and I'm liking House of the Dragon a LOT.
 

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Yeah I'm gonna wait til they all release. But I did watch episode 1 and I thought it was excellent. Just what I needed now that Ozark and Better Call Saul are done.
 

RolandDeschain

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Yeah I'm gonna wait til they all release.
That's how I've done it with virtually all TV shows in my adult life; wait until the season is over, then binge it. Even before it was popular. :) I first started doing it with the second season of 24 back in 2002 or so. Literally everyone I knew thought I was crazy for waiting until the season was over so I could watch it in a few large chunks. Fast-forward two decades and it's most peoples' preferred way to watch a show, lol. That being said, I didn't have the patience for the last two seasons of Game of Thrones, nor for the first season of House of the Dragon. Four episodes in, it feels to me like they are setting things up for a many-seasons-long show...Excellent.
 

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The show is visually stunning, and the acting is good. But the story feels a bit flat and uninspired. And while the original series had charm, this one seems completely devoid of it.
 

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I guess there will be no natural time line in this one. Just get used to the characters and they change..

Yeah kinda weird with the character/actor change, and for a timeline that only jumped what, a decade?

I'm sure there are long term story arc reasons to switch the actors so soon, but if they kept the older actors and made them look older, why not do the same with the younger actors? Idk.

Still a good show, but definitely a weird producer/writer decision.
 

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