Geno wasn’t clutch

acer1240

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God forbid someone has an opinion on the QB. I'll gladly bow out. Geno is w/out fault. Got it.
Nobody is saying that SoulfishHawk. I just think that everyone is saying that he was not the reason for the loss. I'm not exactly sure of your position on this. Want Russ back?
 

Sgt. Largent

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God forbid someone has an opinion on the QB. I'll gladly bow out.

You keep drawing a line between losses and "Geno didn't play well enough."

So either you're being unrealistic about expectations for Geno, or you're not understanding which piece of the blame pie Geno should get......and my friend, for these last two losses he's not even in the top 5 of the blame pie chart.
 

Eamon696

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I definitely don't think Geno Smith is the type of quarterback that will win the Seahawks a Super Bowl - I think he is an efficient QB who can look elite in spurts but I don't think he has that it factor, especially in clutch time. He is enough for what we are right now - a team on the come up, sure, but still rebuilding.

I can't really blame him for the loss yesterday though, not when the Defense can't stop the run and we can't run the ball ourselves.
 

SoulfishHawk

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I never said he was the reason they lost, I said he was part of it. Not sure why it's so hard to understand. The Defense is by far the biggest issue. But they win as a team, and they lose as a team. That's all I'm saying.
And hell no to Russ coming back. Glad he's gone and he's not our problem.
 

scutterhawk

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2nd and 23 play? That wasn't wow? That wasn't clutch?

Why do we have this same discussion every loss where all of a sudden 'clutch' is a thing that only seems to matter on a very specific moment in a very specific drive of the game?

Do we honestly believe that there is no pressure on a drive in the third quarter when your team is down by 4 and you have a non-existent run game?

Geno has delivered game winning drives and then the defense poops the bed and he does it again followed by the defense pooping the bed again and then he doesn't deliver a third and we get threads like this and I'm confused as to whether some people on here think that there is some magical moment on the clock when a drive doesn't count as 'clutch' and when it does.

Clutch is the most overrated 'skill' in sports.
^^This^^ We get a crapload of these insincere "I'd like to be proven wrong" blah blah posters, after a loss like this, you need only to read where they'd followed Geno all the way back to his college days, and how he is STILL playing the same crap-ball ways...They do NOT like Geno, so they dig up goofy stats or whatever it takes to support their lame arguments.
When Russ was in his heydays in 4th quarter comebacks, he had crapload of players that HELPPED to get him those stats .. Rice, Tate, Baldwin, Lockett & the like hauling in some of his passes, and THAT bolsters a lot of those 4th quarter comeback stats.
I'd hardly call Derrek Car a "Clutch QB" but in his last two OT games he has been?
For the most part it was the DEFENSE that didn't play up to the competition, they allowed the Raiders to scoring 40 points.
As has already been said, 34 points would have been PLENTY enough to win.
 

BASF

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Some of you seriously grasp at straws to validate your preconceived notions. Geno led the game winning drive scoring with less than six minutes left. None of us would have come on here and started a pages long thread about how Geno is in fact clutch if the refs hadn't jobbed us on the forced fumble. That game was lost in the trenches. Our D-Coordinator had a piss poor game again and we lost because of it. A mediocre team just scored their most points since 2018 and gained their most yards since 2016, but lets validate our opinions on our QB.
 

olyfan63

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Geno is not yet "clutch enough" at winning time. Sad but true? Well, true at this point in time. It's interesting that people are acting as if players have a "clutch gene" or don't, and if they don't, they will never be clutch*.

It's taken Geno 10 years to get to the point of being a GOOD NFL quarterback. He sat and learned and did the work. However, there is very little that can prepare a QB for NFL big-time pressure situations, aside from BEING IN THEM. Now Geno has lost an overtime game where he had a chance to be the difference-maker, and he came up short. Now he can learn and go back and review and revisit what he could have done differently. A short (hypothetical) list: Geno could have audibled out of that Walker run on 2nd down, to a pass play he thought would work, and would have lower risk of being blown up by Crosby. Geno can review the throws he short-armed in the final minutes and OT, and figure out how to do better. Maybe some work with the sports psychologist, to keep his cool and keep his mechanics sound in pressure situations? The point is, NOW Geno is getting the EXPERIENCE he needs to develop his clutch-ness.

I'm seeing progress with Geno in that he has improved at throwing the ball away in crap-play no-win situations, instead of taking the sack. That's an improvement that helps clutch-ness. Can we give Geno the rest of this season, and hopefully a good chunk of next, before we start writing him off with "irreversible" not-clutch "choker" labels? Besides, Geno doesn't give a crap what any of us, or his critics, think, he's going to do the work, and (He) "ain't write back".

* Case in point: "habitual choker" Kirk Cousins has actually been "clutch" this year for the Vikes. Why? Maybe 40% Cousins, 40% Justin Jefferson, and 20% new coach? Meanwhile, Aaron Rodgers, not so clutch. Maybe 20% Rodgers decline, 40% missing Davante Adams, and 40% "other"?
 

Rock_the_Hawk

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Like i said before Geno has some things to prove. Can he make that game winning drive? Not so far. Doesnt mean he wont but knowing the Hawks have the draft capital to get that franchise qb, got to play better than that.
Im not saying it was Geno's fault the Hawks lost that game because it wasnt.

I guess i am asking the question, What kind of QB finds a way to win that game? A Franchise QB? Does a franchise QB lose that game? What would be the Seahawks expectation of a top 3 pick? What does it mean to have a franchise QB?
 

olyfan63

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I definitely don't think Geno Smith is the type of quarterback that will win the Seahawks a Super Bowl - I think he is an efficient QB who can look elite in spurts but I don't think he has that it factor, especially in clutch time. He is enough for what we are right now - a team on the come up, sure, but still rebuilding.

I can't really blame him for the loss yesterday though, not when the Defense can't stop the run and we can't run the ball ourselves.
Do you remember Russell's stat line in the 2014 season NFCCG vs Green Bay? The answer is "four". Well Alex, the question is, "How many 'clutch' picks did Russell throw against Green Bay that day?" There were a whole bunch of other players that bailed out choker Russ on that day. The whole Hawks D, holding GB and Peak Rodgers to FGs instead of TDs, Luke Willson and sheer good luck, catching that 2 point conversion, the onside kick recovery, and Jermaine Kearse catching that walkoff TD pass (he could have dropped it) Russell sucked for 3.5 quarters, and the rest of the team was just clutch enough to bail him out.
 

AgentDib

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I guess i am asking the question, What kind of QB finds a way to win that game? A Franchise QB? Does a franchise QB lose that game? What would be the Seahawks expectation of a top 3 pick? What does it mean to have a franchise QB?
Would you say Peyton Manning was a clutch QB? He was certainly a franchise QB, but in fifteen years of playoff runs he was bounced in the first game nine times and his averages across the board were significantly lower than in the regular season. Whereas Eli had two Superbowl wins in just six playoff appearances - but it's a team game and he had a much better defense both times.

Another thing to consider about any QB play at the end of a game is that offense gets easier when you have four downs to work with, but a lot harder when there isn't time left to credibly run the ball. Putting Geno in a situation where we have to pass is giving the opposing pass rush a huge advantage against our young OL. Sacks and pressures happen frequently in that situation and many one score NFL games end in that manner.
 

Rock_the_Hawk

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Would you say Peyton Manning was a clutch QB? He was certainly a franchise QB, but in fifteen years of playoff runs he was bounced in the first game nine times and his averages across the board were significantly lower than in the regular season. Whereas Eli had two Superbowl wins in just six playoff appearances - but it's a team game and he had a much better defense both times.

Another thing to consider about any QB play at the end of a game is that offense gets easier when you have four downs to work with, but a lot harder when there isn't time left to credibly run the ball. Putting Geno in a situation where we have to pass is giving the opposing pass rush a huge advantage against our young OL. Sacks and pressures happen frequently in that situation and many one score NFL games end in that manner.
I think you have good points..im just asking the questions with out necessarily having every answer.
 

Lagartixa

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Geno is not yet "clutch enough" at winning time. Sad but true? Well, true at this point in time. It's interesting that people are acting as if players have a "clutch gene" or don't, and if they don't, they will never be clutch*.

It's taken Geno 10 years to get to the point of being a GOOD NFL quarterback. He sat and learned and did the work. However, there is very little that can prepare a QB for NFL big-time pressure situations, aside from BEING IN THEM. Now Geno has lost an overtime game where he had a chance to be the difference-maker, and he came up short. Now he can learn and go back and review and revisit what he could have done differently. A short (hypothetical) list: Geno could have audibled out of that Walker run on 2nd down, to a pass play he thought would work, and would have lower risk of being blown up by Crosby. Geno can review the throws he short-armed in the final minutes and OT, and figure out how to do better. Maybe some work with the sports psychologist, to keep his cool and keep his mechanics sound in pressure situations? The point is, NOW Geno is getting the EXPERIENCE he needs to develop his clutch-ness.

I'm seeing progress with Geno in that he has improved at throwing the ball away in crap-play no-win situations, instead of taking the sack. That's an improvement that helps clutch-ness. Can we give Geno the rest of this season, and hopefully a good chunk of next, before we start writing him off with "irreversible" not-clutch "choker" labels? Besides, Geno doesn't give a crap what any of us, or his critics, think, he's going to do the work, and (He) "ain't write back".

Sounds like what lots of folks on talk radio say.

The problem is that Smith led the NFL in game-winning drives in his rookie season, with those game-winning drives accounting for five of his team's eight wins that season. So much for "there is very little that can prepare a QB for NFL big-time pressure situations," huh? And so much for the idea that he needs a sports psychologist or "EXPERIENCE... to develop his clutch-ness."

* Case in point: "habitual choker" Kirk Cousins has actually been "clutch" this year for the Vikes. Why? Maybe 40% Cousins, 40% Justin Jefferson, and 20% new coach? Meanwhile, Aaron Rodgers, not so clutch. Maybe 20% Rodgers decline, 40% missing Davante Adams, and 40% "other"?

There's a much simpler explanation. Maybe "clutchness" as a characteristic of the player doesn't exist. People want to take the results of a game in a team sport and use it to make judgements about the character of a single player on one of the teams. What if that were just hot air and nonsense?

Yes, of course there are "clutch" situations, but there is no sign in any study ever done that there exists any kind of measurable "clutchness" that is any more predictive of how a given player will do in such a situation than that player's overall performance in "clutch" and "non-clutch" situations. In fact, overall performance is a better predictor of how a player will do in the next "clutch" situation than any measure of how he's done previously in such situations.
 

olyfan63

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Think they’ll go for one of the best all time for a mediocre one?
I didn't really intend it as a dig at DK, who is awesome. Seeing Justin Jefferson the last few weeks make clutch, game-deciding plays (not counting Vikes vs Dallas game), it's clear that Jefferson makes Cousins far more "clutch" than he ever was. As a QB, Cousins knows he can throw a 50-50 ball to Jefferson, and not only is it unlikely to be picked off, it's really an 80-20 ball because Jefferson is 1v1 on the other end, or 60-40 if double covered. Same idea as how Brady having an OL that protects him makes him way more "clutch", that, and processing quickly and getting the ball out quickly. We saw in SB 55 how much less "clutch" Patrick Mahomes is when over half of his starting OLine is out injured.

Therefore, a big part of the key to making Geno "more clutch" is to keep upgrading the O-Line so he can get the throw off, and of course the defense to "protect" a GW drive. Upgrading the overall talent level of the roster will help as well, maybe a big-body RB (healthy Penny? Oops, that's an oxymoron) could have been more of a run threat vs the Raiders.
 

SoulfishHawk

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This next draft can really fix things, and quickly. Really hope they get two D Lineman in the 1st round. That's clearly top priority imo.

As far as DK and Jefferson go, they are both phenomenal players. I'm plenty happy DK is here. Just like I would be if it was Jefferson.
 

olyfan63

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Sounds like what lots of folks on talk radio say.

The problem is that Smith led the NFL in game-winning drives in his rookie season, with those game-winning drives accounting for five of his team's eight wins that season. So much for "there is very little that can prepare a QB for NFL big-time pressure situations," huh? And so much for the idea that he needs a sports psychologist or "EXPERIENCE... to develop his clutch-ness."



There's a much simpler explanation. Maybe "clutchness" as a characteristic of the player doesn't exist. People want to take the results of a game in a team sport and use it to make judgements about the character of a single player on one of the teams. What if that were just hot air and nonsense?

Yes, of course there are "clutch" situations, but there is no sign in any study ever done that there exists any kind of measurable "clutchness" that is any more predictive of how a given player will do in such a situation than that player's overall performance in "clutch" and "non-clutch" situations. In fact, overall performance is a better predictor of how a player will do in the next "clutch" situation than any measure of how he's done previously in such situations.
I think it would be "challenging" to set up a "scientific study" to evaluate "clutchness" and perhaps pointless. I clearly labeled the sports psychologist example as a "hypothetical", not sure why you're picking on that. The Hawks do have those types of people on staff and Carroll is a believer.

Geno led the NFL in GW drives his rookie season? Great, the Jets had a defense that year! So (making this up) Geno's 2nd quarter field goal drive held up as the game winner when the Jets won, 10-7? So we agree that upgrades on the Hawks defense would help Geno be much more "clutch".

You use the word "character", I prefer to think of "clutchness" in terms of skills, mental mindset, opponent research, coaching guidance, situational awareness, supporting cast (in team sports) and physical talent, deployed in high-stakes contested situations, within a given environment/setting, to obtain a successful result. Yeah, that's a lot of stuff. Most of those variables can be improved with effort. The strength of opponent is of course a factor as well. Some ultra-clutch plays are one-off "miracle" things, that are near-impossible to replicate. David Tyree's helmet catch, the Minneapolis Miracle walk-off TD by the Vikes, the 2014 NFCCG onside kick recovery, and even this Disc Golf championship-winning throw.


Some players consistently display the "clutch gene"; Patrick Mahomes in SB55, Justin Jefferson, and Cooper Kupp come to mind; this year I'm also seeing it in Jets DB Sauce Gardner. Prime Richard Sherman was definitely "clutch". (Doug Baldwin, Cliff Avril, Lynch, and many other Hawk greats also) Matthew Stafford was "clutch" for the Rams last year, but this year, not so much. Mahomes wasn't very "clutch" in SB55, with no O-Line protection. I think we agree that the "clutch gene" thing is nonsense, and that it's really a collection of variables that come together (or don't) at crunch time. Players playing through injuries can often be far less "clutch" than usual, for obvious reasons.

I do think that Geno mentally fell apart the last few minutes of the game. Wouldn't you, if you had Maxx Crosby barreling down on you and had no time to process the field and unleash the throw? The off-target throw to DK, short-arming a couple throws to Tyler? I trust in Pete, Shane, and Geno to identify adjustments and make improvements. I'm not sure I trust in Clint Hurtt to make the adjustments on D to help Geno's clutchness, but we can always hope.
 
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