Fire Carroll? Remember Schottenheimer and the Chargers

diver110

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I understand all of the frustrations with the Hawks. Now that Wilson is out for 3ish games, we are probably not going to the playoffs. While it sometimes happens that a backup rises the challenge, I cannot recall it happening this early in the season. Foles is probably the best performance by a backup (anyone think of a better one?), and he took over toward the end of the run. And, of course, that was mostly all she wrote. Geno is not starting material or he would be starting somewhere else. Once other teams plan for his style of play, most likely forgetaboutit (though I would love to be wrong). And, I think it is fair to wonder if it is time replace Carroll. But remember the Chargers and Schottenheimer. There is something worse than not making the Super Bowl, and that is not making the playoffs. After Schottenheimer was fired (inexplicably after a 12-4 season), the Chargers descended into mediocrity from which they are just now emerging, 14 years later! Carroll is getting up their in age, a legitimate concern, but the odds that we will get someone as good or better are long, just ask the Chargers.
 

chris98251

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diver110":2zmddifq said:
I understand all of the frustrations with the Hawks. Now that Wilson is out for 3ish games, we are probably not going to the playoffs. While it sometimes happens that a backup rises the challenge, I cannot recall it happening this early in the season. Foles is probably the best performance by a backup (anyone think of a better one?), and he took over toward the end of the run. And, of course, that was mostly all she wrote. Geno is not starting material or he would be starting somewhere else. Once other teams plan for his style of play, most likely forgetaboutit (though I would love to be wrong). And, I think it is fair to wonder if it is time replace Carroll. But remember the Chargers and Schottenheimer. There is something worse than not making the Super Bowl, and that is not making the playoffs. After Schottenheimer was fired (inexplicably after a 12-4 season), the Chargers descended into mediocrity from which they are just now emerging, 14 years later! Carroll is getting up their in age, a legitimate concern, but the odds that we will get someone as good or better are long, just ask the Chargers.


This guy did pretty well.

Earl Morrall started and won the remaining nine games of season. Morrall started both the Divisional and AFC conference games, but Griese returned to start Super Bowl VII.
 

pittpnthrs

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Schottenheimer was let go because the team was stuck (just like Seattle) and the change was worth the risk because they just werent ever going to go any further with him. Its worth the risk in Seattle too.
 

sdog1981

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Schottenheimer was fired after a 14-2 season. He also fought constantly with the owner and GM, so these are not really comparable situations.
 
OP
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diver110

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sdog1981":ln1uyqzb said:
Schottenheimer was fired after a 14-2 season. He also fought constantly with the owner and GM, so these are not really comparable situations.


And the Chargers kept winning, as Lombardi said, that is the only thing. Coaches that can win consistently are hard to find. I can promise you, if they fire Carroll and the Hawks start missing the playoffs, it won‘t seem worth the risk.
 

nwHawk

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Mike Holmgren to Jim Mora Jr to Pete to…. Jimmy Lake…? Hahaha - forget about it!!

The risk and reward switch-a-roo is tough to pull off quickly. I think the OP has a good perspective. When you change coaches it’s not just the top dog, it’s everything. That generally means a rebuild. Some guys will fit the new regime, but many must be replaced in order to match the scheme, attitude and etc… of the new staff. A new coach must have a fair shake.

I wish Pete would have more tough voices on the staff. Seems like a lot of yes men. While I don’t like everything Pete does, I don’t hate him. Anyone still remember the excitement of the Tom Flores hiring? Past Super Bowl winner as a player and Head Coach. Replaced tired old Ground Chuck. Those seasons were so rough. I never want anything like that to happen again.
 

pittpnthrs

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diver110":1kk2qakb said:
sdog1981":1kk2qakb said:
Schottenheimer was fired after a 14-2 season. He also fought constantly with the owner and GM, so these are not really comparable situations.


And the Chargers kept winning, as Lombardi said, that is the only thing. Coaches that can win consistently are hard to find. I can promise you, if they fire Carroll and the Hawks start missing the playoffs, it won‘t seem worth the risk.

With zero chances at making it to the Super Bowl its not worth the risk?

My bad, the Giants did it once so I guess there's a 0.00001% chance.
 

Spin Doctor

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nwHawk":rh7n10yf said:
Mike Holmgren to Jim Mora Jr to Pete to…. Jimmy Lake…? Hahaha - forget about it!!

The risk and reward switch-a-roo is tough to pull off quickly. I think the OP has a good perspective. When you change coaches it’s not just the top dog, it’s everything. That generally means a rebuild. Some guys will fit the new regime, but many must be replaced in order to match the scheme, attitude and etc… of the new staff. A new coach must have a fair shake.

I wish Pete would have more tough voices on the staff. Seems like a lot of yes men. While I don’t like everything Pete does, I don’t hate him. Anyone still remember the excitement of the Tom Flores hiring? Past Super Bowl winner as a player and Head Coach. Replaced tired old Ground Chuck. Those seasons were so rough. I never want anything like that to happen again.
Who's to say that we won't get to Jim Mora Jr. levels with Pete Carroll? We are now close to 10 years removed from our last Super Bowl appearance. Since then we've seen diminishing returns. The Seahawks are 3-5 in the playoffs since our last Super Bowl appearance. Our only wins came from: A missed 27 yard field goal in the waning seconds of the game, a win over a Matt Stafford playing on a sprained ankle, with a messed up throwing hand, and last but not least, a win against a 40+ year old Luke McCown. We don't have a single quality win since then.

On the other sides of things we have not drafted particularly well and we've sold the future in big trades, twice for players that didn't fit what the Seahawks like to do. Paying premier pass rusher price for a safety is absurd.

Carroll has also struggled to put together a good defense despite spending significant draft capital. Since 2016 our defense has been getting worse every year. We're now well below average and we have been for quite some time. Our offense runs hot and cold and a lot of that is dictated by our HC and his vision. The Seahawks have quietly been teetering on the edge for quite some time now.

What is worse is the potential for all the above to scare away Russell Wilson. Last season Wilson was not happy, many of the rumors were fanned by Wilson's agent himself. It may come to a point where we choose Russell Wilson or Pete Carroll. I'm very much so getting McCarthy vibes right now.

Which brings me into my next point, Russell Wilson is what separates this situation from the scenarios you have mentioned. Who were the QB's post Krieg? Absolutely nobodies aside from the one decent year that Warren Moon had in the 90s with the Seahawks. You absolutely cannot compare these situations. Even Hasselbeck in 2009 had major issues. He had chronic back issues and other issues that really made him a shadow of his former self.

This is also why we should kick Pete to the curb. I don't think he is capable of capitalizing on Russell Wilson's potential as a passer. He meddles in the offense too much and he knows jack about the offense. We are squandering Wilson's prime at this point with Carroll, and quite frankly he doesn't even bring very much to the defense anymore.
 

Tokadub

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diver110":lsj8n1zp said:
I understand all of the frustrations with the Hawks. Now that Wilson is out for 3ish games, we are probably not going to the playoffs. While it sometimes happens that a backup rises the challenge, I cannot recall it happening this early in the season. Foles is probably the best performance by a backup (anyone think of a better one?), and he took over toward the end of the run. And, of course, that was mostly all she wrote. Geno is not starting material or he would be starting somewhere else. Once other teams plan for his style of play, most likely forgetaboutit (though I would love to be wrong). And, I think it is fair to wonder if it is time replace Carroll. But remember the Chargers and Schottenheimer. There is something worse than not making the Super Bowl, and that is not making the playoffs. After Schottenheimer was fired (inexplicably after a 12-4 season), the Chargers descended into mediocrity from which they are just now emerging, 14 years later! Carroll is getting up their in age, a legitimate concern, but the odds that we will get someone as good or better are long, just ask the Chargers.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU MEAN SCHOTTENHEIMER AND THE CHARGERS??? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT BRIAN SCHOTTENHEIMER'S DAD (Marty Schottenheimer?). Maybe you confused Brian with Marty? I don't understand what you are talking about bringing up the Chargers. It seems Brian Schottenheimer had a very limited role with the chargers???

If you are talking about Marty that seems completely irrelevant to the rest of your post...?

Are you just saying we shouldn't fire Pete? Well I would have agreed with you up until we didn't use Ryan Neal vs the Rams... and Pete said in his Press Conference "I don't think it would of made a difference"...

Just from that one game and press conference alone I'm starting to think Pete might no longer be a good coach.



Nick Foles had a 27 Touchdown 2 Interception season:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FoleNi00.htm

So I actually predicted that the Eagles would win that Super Bowl. I wasn't surprised at all that Nick Foles had 6 TD 1 Interception and 115 passer rating in those playoffs.

I don't think I predicted that result on this forum but I told it to my close family and friends that I thought the Eagles would win that game.

For reference, most analyst thought it would be a blowout in Patriots favor. They all forgot about Nick Foles 27 TD 2 Interception season. You can't do that in the NFL if you don't have potential, and I felt his potential would be enough to win that game and he did.


If Shane Waldron was worth firing Brian Schottenheimer he might be able to win 2-3 games with Geno Smith.

I don't believe he is better than Schottenheimer but I thought Schottenheimer was really good compared to Bevell... so I think Geno has a chance here.



That being said, we probably weren't going to the playoffs before Wilson's injury... that's just a fact when you have the worst defense in the league and a mediocre offense.

EVEN WITH WILSON WE WERE A BAD OFFENSE!!! HELLO??? YOU KNOW THAT RIGHT???
 

Tokadub

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diver110":3cl44nmr said:
I understand all of the frustrations with the Hawks. Now that Wilson is out for 3ish games, we are probably not going to the playoffs. While it sometimes happens that a backup rises the challenge, I cannot recall it happening this early in the season. Foles is probably the best performance by a backup (anyone think of a better one?), and he took over toward the end of the run. And, of course, that was mostly all she wrote. Geno is not starting material or he would be starting somewhere else. Once other teams plan for his style of play, most likely forgetaboutit (though I would love to be wrong). And, I think it is fair to wonder if it is time replace Carroll. But remember the Chargers and Schottenheimer. There is something worse than not making the Super Bowl, and that is not making the playoffs. After Schottenheimer was fired (inexplicably after a 12-4 season), the Chargers descended into mediocrity from which they are just now emerging, 14 years later! Carroll is getting up their in age, a legitimate concern, but the odds that we will get someone as good or better are long, just ask the Chargers.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU MEAN SCHOTTENHEIMER AND THE CHARGERS??? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT BRIAN SCHOTTENHEIMER'S DAD (Marty Schottenheimer?). Maybe you confused Brian with Marty? I don't understand what you are talking about bringing up the Chargers. It seems Brian Schottenheimer had a very limited role with the chargers???

If you are talking about Marty that seems completely irrelevant to the rest of your post...?

Are you just saying we shouldn't fire Pete? Well I would have agreed with you up until we didn't use Ryan Neal vs the Rams... and Pete said in his Press Conference "I don't think it would of made a difference"...

Just from that one game and press conference alone I'm starting to think Pete might no longer be a good coach.



Nick Foles had a 27 Touchdown 2 Interception season:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FoleNi00.htm

So I actually predicted that the Eagles would win that Super Bowl. I wasn't surprised at all that Nick Foles had 6 TD 1 Interception and 115 passer rating in those playoffs.

I don't think I predicted that result on this forum but I told it to my close family and friends that I thought the Eagles would win that game.

For reference, most analyst thought it would be a blowout in Patriots favor. They all forgot about Nick Foles 27 TD 2 Interception season. You can't do that in the NFL if you don't have potential, and I felt his potential would be enough to win that game and he did.


If Shane Waldron was worth firing Brian Schottenheimer he might be able to win 2-3 games with Geno Smith.

I don't believe he is better than Schottenheimer but I thought Schottenheimer was really good compared to Bevell... so I think Geno has a chance here.



That being said, we probably weren't going to the playoffs before Wilson's injury... that's just a fact when you have the worst defense in the league and a mediocre offense.

EVEN WITH WILSON WE WERE A BAD OFFENSE!!! HELLO??? YOU KNOW THAT RIGHT???


https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/view/offense/table/passing/sort/netYardsPerGame/dir/desc

Seahawks are ranked 19th out of 32 in total yards on Offense...

Seahawks are ranked 14th out of 32 in points per game on Offense...


https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/view/defense/table/passing/sort/totalPointsPerGame/dir/asc

We are ranked last in the league in defensive yards allowed.

We are ranked 22 out of 32 in defensive points allowed.

Hate to break it to everyone but an average offense will not win a Super Bowl or probably even make the playoffs with the worst defense in the league.
 

Hawaii-hawk

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Can anyone tell me what specifically is it about what Pete Carroll is doing or has done in the last 5 years that can be credited to us winning consistently?

Drafting—sucks
Gameplan—sucks
In game adjustments—sucks
Defensive scheme—sucks
Offensive philosophy—sucks
Hiring of good coaches and timely firing of bad ones—sucks
Time management in games—sucks
Disciplining his team—sucks.

So I’m confused…do we win consistently because of Pete Carroll or do we win despite him?
 

flv

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Schottenheimer Sr. was fired from the Chargers because of the owner. Comparing any other NFL owner to that owner would be a mistake. The Seahawks aren't a potential 14-2 quality team so comparing the situations with the 2 teams would be pointless.
 

AubHawk71

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Hawaii-hawk":1oobb684 said:
Can anyone tell me what specifically is it about what Pete Carroll is doing or has done in the last 5 years that can be credited to us winning consistently?

Drafting—sucks
Gameplan—sucks
In game adjustments—sucks
Defensive scheme—sucks
Offensive philosophy—sucks
Hiring of good coaches and timely firing of bad ones—sucks
Time management in games—sucks
Disciplining his team—sucks.

So I’m confused…do we win consistently because of Pete Carroll or do we win despite him?

Your last sentence is the silver lining to Russ getting injured. It's a good opportunity to see what Pete is bringing without RW saving his bacon all the time. Or if RW and PC just aren't compatible. Geno just needs to keep the rudder straight, and it may or may not expose all of PC's weaknesses that get glossed over by the flashy finish wins we've been coasting on for years now...
 

chris98251

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I think with Geno we will see more YAC, we won't see a lot of big splash plays, we will have shots to keep the defense honest of course, but a methodical run and intermediate or crossing patterns in stride. Screens as well, we had some of the best screens I have seen in years against the Rams.

As far as the comparison, very much like Marty, had all the tools in the tool shed, but was so conservative was tentative to let the players win when it came to the playoffs, this happened time and time again in KC and in San Diego.
 

Rat

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The fact that the Chargers did a horrifically bad job replacing Schottenheimer doesn't make moving on a bad decision. If you have a team capable of going 14-2, it feels like keeping the wheels spinning to keep employing someone with a ceiling that's short of a championship.
 
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