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Bear-Hawk

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Any chess players here? I have lost a lot of respect for Magnus Carlson after losing a game, accusing the opponent of cheating without solid proof, and then pulling out of the tournament. I think that’s poor sportsmanship.

Anybody have a thought about this?
 

Sun Tzu

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Any chess players here? I have lost a lot of respect for Magnus Carlson after losing a game, accusing the opponent of cheating without solid proof, and then pulling out of the tournament. I think that’s poor sportsmanship.

Anybody have a thought about this?
I think it is pretty likely that Niemann cheated. He has a history of cheating and, in my opinion, people who have cheated in the past will typically cheat again. They have psychological issues and it is difficult (almost impossible) to stop themselves from cheating without addressing those issues.

I imagine that Magnus replayed the game while using computer analysis and discovered that Niemann made the perfect computer move in several key situations. Some of those moves were likely a departure from Niemann's style of play. It is not conclusive proof, but given Niemann's history, his comparative skill level, and the computer analysis of his play, I would be shocked if he wasn't cheating.
 
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Bear-Hawk

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I think it is pretty likely that Niemann cheated. He has a history of cheating and, in my opinion, people who have cheated in the past will typically cheat again. They have psychological issues and it is difficult (almost impossible) to stop themselves from cheating without addressing those issues.

I imagine that Magnus replayed the game while using computer analysis and discovered that Niemann made the perfect computer move in several key situations. Some of those moves were likely a departure from Niemann's style of play. It is not conclusive proof, but given Niemann's history, his comparative skill level, and the computer analysis of his play, I would be shocked if he wasn't cheating.
I totally agree with everything you said. Where we might disagree is on the question of what level of proof is required for a player to publicly accuse another of cheating, especially in an over-the-board tournament with metal detectors and other security. It is still possible, but very difficult, and nobody has a theory on how he did it. Given the consequences that this has for the player, I want "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" and we just don't have it. I imagine that is where we may disagree.

By his standards, Magnus did not play well in this game. He made several inaccurate moves that contributed to his loss.

Also, he should explain why he pulled out of the tournament. He owes it to the fans and other players there. I attended this tournament a few years ago and watched Fabi beat him. I could stand 5 feet from the table. It is a very close atmosphere and a lot of excitement. Imagine how the fans feel who showed up, bought a ticket, and then he pulls out.
 

fenderbender123

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So far there is no evidence of cheating. I read that Magnus's opening was analyzed and that he made a couple inaccuracies.
 
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Bear-Hawk

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So far there is no evidence of cheating. I read that Magnus's opening was analyzed and that he made a couple inaccuracies.
As Sun Tzu summarized, there is strong circumstantial evidence, but no smoking gun. Yes, Magnus’ own play in this game was not up to his usual standards, which further complicates attributing his loss to cheating.

I was already disappointed in Magnus pulling out of the world championship match with Nepo. Of course, that’s his right, but it does devalue the title. He wants to change the format.
 

fenderbender123

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I definitely don't think Magnus should be ignored, either. If he thinks there was a violation of fair play, we shouldn't dismiss it.

The chess organization in charge of the tournament did release a statement saying there was no evidence or indication or unfair play. Of course, that just means they can't prove it.

Magnus will hopefully make a statement soon.
 
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Bear-Hawk

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I’m in the “innocent til proven guilty” camp. Would you ever accuse somebody of cheating if you had suspicions but no hard proof? I wouldn’t. That’s what troubles me about this situation.
 

Sun Tzu

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I'm not sure where I stand on this.
On the cheating issue: I just don't trust former cheaters. It is my personal experience that someone who has cheated in the past will continue to find ways to cheat. And, although I agree with the sentiment of innocent until proven guilty, I may be inclined to suspend that for a known former offender when there is circumstantial evidence.
On Magnus quitting: I get that fans want to see him play, but I also respect his right to play when, where, and under whatever circumstances he wants. We shouldn't expect someone to participate in something just because we as fans want it. It also seems a little childish to quit in the middle of the tournament following a loss.
 
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Bear-Hawk

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I definitely don't think Magnus should be ignored, either. If he thinks there was a violation of fair play, we shouldn't dismiss it.

The chess organization in charge of the tournament did release a statement saying there was no evidence or indication or unfair play. Of course, that just means they can't prove it.

Magnus will hopefully make a statement soon.
Here is Antonio's analysis of the game....



Having studied the game, I also see no nearly conclusive evidence. Magnus owes him an apology and the rest of the chess world an explanation. He just dropped a bomb and walked away.
 

QWERTY

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What's wrong with withdrawing a tournament? I have done that many in my time.

As for the accusations of cheating, it all depends, I dont really care about GM matches, but if his opponent kept using the bathroom, yes that would be suspicious. Now days annotating games or GM matches, the games are online, and anyone can use a program to see whwat the best moves are.

And please don't talk about sportsmanship, you have jokes like Hikaru that plays f3 kf2 , or tries to mate people with 4 queens +.
 
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What's wrong with withdrawing a tournament? I have done that many in my time.

As for the accusations of cheating, it all depends, I dont really care about GM matches, but if his opponent kept using the bathroom, yes that would be suspicious. Now days annotating games or GM matches, the games are online, and anyone can use a program to see whwat the best moves are.

And please don't talk about sportsmanship, you have jokes like Hikaru that plays f3 kf2 , or tries to mate people with 4 queens +.
Nothing wrong with withdrawing from a tournament in general. However, Magnus is not you or me. He is world champion and when he pulls out for no good reason, that impacts the whole tournament negatively for the St. Louis Chess Club, the other players in the tournament, and the fans who bought tickets to the event hoping to see Magnus.

I consider that poor sportsmanship (sour grapes), and so is accusing cheating without proof and then offering no apology or explanation of his behavior.

I don’t know what Naka has to do with this, but I agree that playing f3,f2 is just an insult to the opponent. It’s like starting a football game by punting on first down.
 
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This situation is really interesting to me, way, WAY back in the day I use to play tournament chess. Then life happened and I lost interest. This current situation has brought it back to my mind. I have never heard of these guys.
So after watching a bunch of videos.....learning about these two guys, I just gotta say. I don't suspect cheating. It just sounds like its way to difficult to get away with. Way to difficult.
What it sounds like to me is this current Champ, Magnus, is some sort of privileged prima donna. He started to get this ass handed to him, and he pitched a fit. The other guy...Hans, though he has a history of alleged cheating, just played a good game. Maybe his game was unusually good, but if we are to consider someone to be cheating for doing something unusually good....maybe we should look back at Bob Beamon, and see if he was cheating. How does a guy beat a long jump record by almost 2 feet when usually the record is broken by 1/2 inch at a time.
But I must stress, I don't know alot about the situation....only that the Magnus is very very good, and hangs out with stars and billionaires, and this other guy is very good, but somewhat strange. I can see Magnus pitching a fit because "someone" else put him in his place in an impressive way.
 
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Bear-Hawk

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I have seen Magnus lose games before but never before allege cheating. He had not lost in his previous 53 games, and Hans was rated under 2700. But, as you say, stranger things have happened in sports.

If Magnus believes he cheated, let’s have them play 6 games with strict security. If Magus slaughters him, and Hans is nowhere near gaining a winning position in any game, that would support his claim. On the other hand, if Hans actually wins one of these games, that would prove he can beat Magnus without cheating. Under the circumstances, the match would get a lot of attention in the chess world. They would each go in with something to prove.
 
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Bear-Hawk

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This situation is really interesting to me, way, WAY back in the day I use to play tournament chess. Then life happened and I lost interest. This current situation has brought it back to my mind. I have never heard of these guys.
So after watching a bunch of videos.....learning about these two guys, I just gotta say. I don't suspect cheating. It just sounds like its way to difficult to get away with. Way to difficult.
What it sounds like to me is this current Champ, Magnus, is some sort of privileged prima donna. He started to get this ass handed to him, and he pitched a fit. The other guy...Hans, though he has a history of alleged cheating, just played a good game. Maybe his game was unusually good, but if we are to consider someone to be cheating for doing something unusually good....maybe we should look back at Bob Beamon, and see if he was cheating. How does a guy beat a long jump record by almost 2 feet when usually the record is broken by 1/2 inch at a time.
But I must stress, I don't know alot about the situation....only that the Magnus is very very good, and hangs out with stars and billionaires, and this other guy is very good, but somewhat strange. I can see Magnus pitching a fit because "someone" else put him in his place in an impressive way.
So they were in a tournament this week. Magnus resigned after two moves, and announced he would never play against him. This will hurt Niemann’s career, and opportunity to play in major events.
 

QWERTY

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So they were in a tournament this week. Magnus resigned after two moves, and announced he would never play against him. This will hurt Niemann’s career, and opportunity to play in major events.
Hans can play in US tournaments where Magnus hardly plays at. I mean there's the Vegas Open, US open, World Open, or he can play in those Fide chess tournaments. Not sure what you mean by hurting his career, the chess tournaments can't ban Hans and Magnus will keep losing rating points if he's paired up with him.
 
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I was saying, if you have a round robin tournament and one of the players refuses to play another, it upsets the organization of the tournament. So that would be one reason not to invite him to tournament where Magnus is playing. Because of the affiliation with Magnus, chess.com has banned him already.
 
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QWERTY

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I was saying, if you have a round robin tournament and one of the players refuses to play another, it upsets the organization of the tournament. So that would be one reason not to invite him to tournament where Magnus is playing. Because of the affiliation with Magnus, chess.com has banned him already.

Round Robin meaning everyone plays each other once right, wouldn't Magnus just keep losing raiting points against him? I'm pretty sure Magnus would just play the game out when he's ready.
 
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Bear-Hawk

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Round Robin meaning everyone plays each other once right, wouldn't Magnus just keep losing raiting points against him? I'm pretty sure Magnus would just play the game out when he's ready.
I don’t know, but it probably wouldn’t happen that way. He could just use his leverage with the organizers to keep him out.

Anyway, he now says he will finally come out with some kind of statement next week. I will post it.

There’s a YouTube video from a math professor who studies the player’s moves compared to a chess engine, and his conclusion is that Hans is not cheating against Magnus or in his online games.
 

fenderbender123

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I was saying, if you have a round robin tournament and one of the players refuses to play another, it upsets the organization of the tournament. So that would be one reason not to invite him to tournament where Magnus is playing.

I don't like the idea of allowing top rated players like Magnus to have the power to influence other players to not be invited to tournaments by simply behaving the way Magnus has behaved in regards to this situation.
 

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