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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:30 am 
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Well, supposedly he's been taking money for autographs, and now a broker has come out with a dollar figure of $7500 for signing helmets. Not looking good for this young man, I'm afraid.

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:35 pm 
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Yeah, if it's true he's a moron. Believe his family is pretty well off (seem to recall hearing the term "old oil money").

I believe college athletes should be able to financially benefit from things like this, but as long as it's against the rules he's just stupid (if it's true).

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:54 pm 
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DTexHawk wrote:
sc85sis wrote:
JSeahawks wrote:
Hey, I love Manziel on the field. I'm just worried he has too much Leinart in him. I'd love to see him succeed though. I was just congratulating English on the royal birth today. I'm sure he's lighting up cigars and such.


I never heard that Leinart showed up late or was (allegedly) hung over and couldn't play/practice. Matt was a partier, but it never affected his work as far as I'm aware.


Haven't heard that Manziel showed up late or was hung over and couldn't play/practice with HIS team, which is all that matters.



Yet he hates his own College Station and A&M.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:58 pm 
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Tebow took his team to win the 2009 BCS Championship game.


Manziel has done nothing to impress


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:21 pm 
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Jay Bilas brought this up. Check it out.

Go to www.shopncaasports.com/

Enter the name of a current popular college athlete.

Amateurism? ;-)

The NCAA is a fraud. SMH.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:23 pm 
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This pretty much sums it up. Sickening and people want to blame Manziel. SMH.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebaske...m-search-engine


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:23 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:06 pm 
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What don't you get? Read the CBS link and hopefully it will answer some of your questions.

The NCAA is the problem, not Johnny football.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:26 pm 
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Worst defense ever. The guy openly cheats. He gets caught and now it's a systemic problem, not the problem of the idiot who is openly breaking rules.

Manziel had and has every single right to have never attended Texas A&M and to instead showcase his skills in semi-pro ball until such time as he was eligible for the draft. Eric Swann did and had a great career. Johnny CHOSE to play in the NCAA yet this is somehow the NCAA's fault? So moronic that this is downright hilarious.

The kid is "just a kid doing what all kids do" right? Bunk. He's an entitled prick and has shown it by what he's done since winning the Heisman....openly spit in the face of those who have turned him into a celebrity. I don't think he understands that by violating NCAA rules (like them or not) he is flat out telling NFL teams that he is above teams and organizations and it is all about Johnny.

Sad if you ask me. The kid is one of the most instinctive and naturally talented football players I have ever seen, but it doesn't appear that he is "all in". So be it, but don't paint this as everybody else's problem and say it is due to NCAA inequity. Without the NCAA his autograph isn't worth selling.

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:29 pm 
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SharkHawk wrote:
Worst defense ever. The guy openly cheats. He gets caught and now it's a systemic problem, not the problem of the idiot who is openly breaking rules.

Manziel had and has every single right to have never attended Texas A&M and to instead showcase his skills in semi-pro ball until such time as he was eligible for the draft. Eric Swann did and had a great career. Johnny CHOSE to play in the NCAA yet this is somehow the NCAA's fault? So moronic that this is downright hilarious.

The kid is "just a kid doing what all kids do" right? Bunk. He's an entitled prick and has shown it by what he's done since winning the Heisman....openly spit in the face of those who have turned him into a celebrity. I don't think he understands that by violating NCAA rules (like them or not) he is flat out telling NFL teams that he is above teams and organizations and it is all about Johnny.

Sad if you ask me. The kid is one of the most instinctive and naturally talented football players I have ever seen, but it doesn't appear that he is "all in". So be it, but don't paint this as everybody else's problem and say it is due to NCAA inequity. Without the NCAA his autograph isn't worth selling.

Well said...I don't like the NCAA but you gotta follow the rules, if you want to play in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:49 pm 
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SharkHawk wrote:
Worst defense ever. The guy openly cheats. He gets caught and now it's a systemic problem, not the problem of the idiot who is openly breaking rules.

Manziel had and has every single right to have never attended Texas A&M and to instead showcase his skills in semi-pro ball until such time as he was eligible for the draft. Eric Swann did and had a great career. Johnny CHOSE to play in the NCAA yet this is somehow the NCAA's fault? So moronic that this is downright hilarious.

The kid is "just a kid doing what all kids do" right? Bunk. He's an entitled prick and has shown it by what he's done since winning the Heisman....openly spit in the face of those who have turned him into a celebrity. I don't think he understands that by violating NCAA rules (like them or not) he is flat out telling NFL teams that he is above teams and organizations and it is all about Johnny.

Sad if you ask me. The kid is one of the most instinctive and naturally talented football players I have ever seen, but it doesn't appear that he is "all in". So be it, but don't paint this as everybody else's problem and say it is due to NCAA inequity. Without the NCAA his autograph isn't worth selling.


What has Manziel done that is illegal? Unlawful? Nothing, right? That should tell you all you need to know. There is no other organization in sports that doesn't allow an athlete to profit of their talent. Even the Olympics allow you to profit. Even the Olympics changed those ridiculous rules. Only the NCAA continues to employ these rules.

How has he given himself an advantage on the field? That is the definition of cheating. Has he taken PEDs? He hasn't, but continue to baselessly insult him.

The fact is that the NCAA is such a complete fraud and so corrupt that they want to unfairly profit of the athletes, that bring in the revenue. They aren't a "non profit" organization. They are a multi billion dollar fraud of an industry, who profit of students, while not allowing students the right to profit of their own talent.

If Manziel is just a student, like the NCAA states, then he should be able to sell his own merchandise, like any other student. It goes both ways. But that's not the case to the fraud known as the NCAA.

There's a reason the NCAA is getting sued right now for similar reasons in California. They're a complete fraud. I wish the schools would just leave the NCAA, like Calipari proposed for college basketball.

Without athletes like Manziel, the NCAA would be nothing. Manziel means much more to the NCAA, than the NCAA means to him. A scholarship is worth next to nothing compared to what Manziel is worth to A&M and the NCAA.

It's pretty much indentured servitude. Sickening, but continue to defend the fraud known as the NCAA. Johnny Manziel is one of many athletes who have rightfully been disgusted by NCAA rules. It hasn't stopped many off them from having success on the next level (NFL).

The NFL will only care about his talent. If he's good enough, then he'll succeed. They won't care about this if he turns out to be the next Kaepernick, Luck, or Russell Wilson. I don't know if he has that type of NFL ability, but his success or failure, will have nothing to do with this issue. It will be completely about his talent or lack thereof.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Sharkhark and Dawgs0 are both right.

Manziel should've followed the rules, the rules are pretty obvious in that regard.

However, who turned Johnny Football into Johnny Football? Did he? No. The school and the media and the NCAA(who sells Johnny Football shirts) have created this celebrity out of an immature college kid(who wasn't immature in college?) and now are ripping him because he's buckling under the pressure? The media wanted another Tim Tebow.

Given the sharklike environment that these celebrated college football players live in, its a wonder that the majority of college players end up like him.

He's a hot tempered, spoiled kid who is an outstanding football player. Its up to the coaching staff(who have tried to protect him) and the university to help him mature and grow. Instead the school is extracting what money they can from his image and saying to hell with him.

The kid isn't blameless in all this, but the lions share of the blame goes to the adults who have failed as parents, coaches, educators and administrators to help this kid through this insanity.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:31 pm 
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Would you draft Johnny M., if your team desperately needed a QB? Let's say Jaguards ...

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:40 pm 
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seahawk2k wrote:
Sharkhark and Dawgs0 are both right.

Manziel should've followed the rules, the rules are pretty obvious in that regard.

However, who turned Johnny Football into Johnny Football? Did he? No. The school and the media and the NCAA(who sells Johnny Football shirts) have created this celebrity out of an immature college kid(who wasn't immature in college?) and now are ripping him because he's buckling under the pressure? The media wanted another Tim Tebow.

Given the sharklike environment that these celebrated college football players live in, its a wonder that the majority of college players end up like him.

He's a hot tempered, spoiled kid who is an outstanding football player. Its up to the coaching staff(who have tried to protect him) and the university to help him mature and grow. Instead the school is extracting what money they can from his image and saying to hell with him.

The kid isn't blameless in all this, but the lions share of the blame goes to the adults who have failed as parents, coaches, educators and administrators to help this kid through this insanity.


I'm going to rewrite some of my previous post, because you obviously don't agree with me, but you think you do.

The fact is that Manziel hasn't really done anything wrong. What has Manziel done that is illegal? Unlawful? Nothing, right? That should tell you all you need to know. There is no other organization in sports that doesn't allow an athlete to profit of their talent. HE IS COMPLETELY BLAMELESS.

If Manziel is just a student, like the NCAA states, then he should be able to sell his own merchandise, like any other student. It goes both ways. But that's not the case to the fraud known as the NCAA.

Without athletes like Manziel, the NCAA would be nothing. Manziel means much more to the NCAA, than the NCAA means to him. A scholarship is worth next to nothing compared to what Manziel is worth to A&M and the NCAA.

It's pretty much INDENTURED SERVITUDE. That's what the NCAA is doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:41 pm 
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joeseahawks wrote:
Would you draft Johnny M., if your team desperately needed a QB? Let's say Jaguards ...


Personally, the question is on his talent and I don't know if he is talented enough to be an elite NFL qb. I doubt that he is.

I have no other issues with him.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:47 pm 
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I think you think that I think that I agree with you when in actuality I was seeing merit in both arguments and adding a point of my own.

As far as the NFL question, I don't know if he has the frame to take the punishment, or the arm to make NFL throws. More of a great college player than an NFL player.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:55 pm 
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So what you're getting at "Dawgs" is that you don't like the NCAA's rules? Fair enough, but to excuse Johnny's behavior because it's an unjust rule is really shortsighted and foolish. What he did was SELFISH. It was an ENTIRELY SELFISH ACT. He wasn't try to break down the NCAA system for the benefit of all. He was saying flat out "this never happened" and being a sneaky little bitch to make money on the side AGAINST POLICIES THAT HE AGREED TO. Nobody held a gun to his head.

Is the NCAA stupid? Sure. They ripped a lot of us off. I lost my baseball eligibility because I chose to continue to attend classes for two years while recovering from "dead arm" surgery (thoracic outlet syndrome) and rebuilding my arm strength, but also attending on an academic scholarship and attempting to hurry up and get done so I could pursue my teaching career. But then when it came time for me to "play ball" they looked at my first college class and it was six years prior. Even though I had taken two years off to work out of high school and was injured and rehabbing after having a first rib resection, the clock continued to count and nobody wanted to sue the NCAA for an additional year of eligibility for a slick defender who hit for average and no power and wasn't likely to get drafted prior to the 335th round, so it didn't happen and my dreams just evaporated. I'm no big fan of the NCAA, or the NAIA or others. But they are there, and they have rules. You have to follow them, or take your ball and go home.

I'm fairly certain that Johnny is aware that nobody is going to pay him big money or give him a scholarship now to watch him play catch in the street with his Dad. So he can either take the NCAA's deal or go find a better one. Want to start your own organization? By all means... go ahead.

I was thankful in part though because the money the baseball program and basketball program brought in helped fund my scholarship that helped me to get my degree and I repay it now by belonging to my alumni group and giving money to my alma mater. I would only expect the kids to be as ethical as I was in college. I played by the rules. I did my own work. I paid my own bills. I didn't take anything on the side. But being "famous" somehow excuses you from the rules?

Don't like the rules? Fine. Excusing Johnny as some kind of a martyr who has been done wrong and somehow he's ENTITLED to sign autographs for $7500 in a hotel room so he can "Get some new rims"? Laughable at best. So what if he didn't 'break a law'? It just shows that he's a dipstick.

As others have said.... this is his JOB INTERVIEW for the NFL, and without the NCAA he'd have ZERO shot at the NFL (or minimal... as I said... Eric Swann is the only example I can come up with). He better play by their rules if he is going to play their game. And he isn't an "amateur" like you're claiming. Do you realize how much these kids get in scholarship dollars, room and board, food, equipment? It's mind-boggling. I have a friend that got invited to the combine and played in the Las Vegas Bowl (of all crappy bowls). He got THOUSANDS of dollars worth of freebies from Pioneer and Microsoft in a gift bag for playing in the bowl game and THOUSANDS of dollars of Nike merch throughout his college career and more at the end of the season which is entirely legal according to the NCAA. Players get to keep their jerseys, they get an allotment of shoes, they get housing, they have a special restaurant on campus that is all you can eat steaks and other things. Living the college D1 athlete life is NOT a bad tradeoff, and anybody who thinks it is just doesn't get it. The NCAA's rules may be outmoded, outdated, or unethical. They are still there, and Johnny can take his ball an go home and make a run at the NFL Maurice Clarett style, or he can play the game they require and do some GOOD for others and fight the system while staying within the rules. He only further weakens the position of those who want to change NCAA rules by what he's doing. Those who think he's showing the NCAA is wrong and players deserve to be paid are missing the boat. He's showing that the NCAA is right in restricting some things so that things like this don't take place.

I could care less how many ass-kissing reporters who want to make a name for themselves on sportsline justify it. Hell... I just read a really well written article where highly respected Jim Caple basically excused everything A-Rod has done, and I just laughed and felt that Caple is really struggling for readers and is now regretting leaving Seattle to join ESPN, because that article was an absolute piece of litter box liner and he should not have any business writing again if he honestly BELIEVES that hackey crap he wrote. It's pathetic and he's dying for clicks. Just because some "reporters" sold out and kiss NCAA player's and pro athletes butts doesn't make their actions right. In fact.... having the media agree with you seems more of a black eye than a positive mark.

"It's NOT illegal so it's ok" is the most flawed logic I've seen yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:57 am 
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Dawgs0 wrote:
What don't you get? Read the CBS link and hopefully it will answer some of your questions.

The NCAA is the problem, not Johnny football.



I still don't get it, I believe NCAAF or Colleges should profit money from the players. And I do believe that players shouldn't be benefited, with money.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:28 am 
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Manziel has the elusiveness, feel, and intangibles of Fran Tarkenton with the personality of Brett Favre, or perhaps Kenny Stabler. I don't think there is much question that Manziel has greatness within him, the question might be if he loves football enough to commit to the game. Though in the case of Stabler, his work ethic was notoriously lacking, and he still dominated the league for a time, even getting a Super Bowl win.

An elite feel for the game is not something you see all that often- that magical ability to just make good things happen spontaneously out of pure instinct. I would say it's the most valuable trait a QB can have, but people hardly talk about it because it's so rare that many in the media aren't even aware of it as a quality. BTW, this was the one quality that Bill Walsh put at the top of his QB evaluation. And Johnny Manziel... he oozes what Walsh called "spontaneous genius." Russell Wilson had it too. So did Tom Brady.

I'm really curious to see how this off the field stuff effects his stock in a few years. I'm guessing some team is going to get the steal of the draft in the 3rd round one of these upcoming years.

And if it ends up being the Rams who take a chance on Manziel... well... that's a disturbing thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:41 am 
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Dawgs0 wrote:
What don't you get? Read the CBS link and hopefully it will answer some of your questions.

The NCAA is the problem, not Johnny football.

RW didn't take money in college. In fact, he gave back his baseball signing bonus, the entire thing. So, if Manziel is smart for exposing the NCAA, is Wilson stupid for not taking money in college?

Stop being a knob slobberer.

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:26 am 
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A lot of people keep defending the Rules. But the rules are written to take advantage of "Cheap" and "Free" labor.
When these rules are written, who is sitting on the other side of the table to make sure the interests of the kids are taken into consideration? NOBODY.
On one side of the table is the NCAA (Colleges looking to make $$$, Coaches who look to make $$$) and on the other side the TV Networks (ESPN, Fox, ... ).
How can anyone imagine that the interests of the players are ever even considered? Their only argument is "But we are giving you scholarship" ... seriously? Does Johny M. need a scholarship? His parents can afford to pay for his whole school years. Do players who can afford to pay their way out of college get exempt from these rule?
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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:40 am 
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joeseahawks wrote:
A lot of people keep defending the Rules. But the rules are written to take advantage of "Cheap" and "Free" labor.
When these rules are written, who is sitting on the other side of the table to make sure the interests of the kids are taken into consideration? NOBODY.
On one side of the table is the NCAA (Colleges looking to make $$$, Coaches who look to make $$$) and on the other side the TV Networks (ESPN, Fox, ... ).
How can anyone imagine that the interests of the players are ever even considered? Their only argument is "But we are giving you scholarship" ... seriously? Does Johny M. need a scholarship? His parents can afford to pay for his whole school years. Do players who can afford to pay their way out of college get exempt from these rule?
Joe

Stop being thick. ALL of us are subject to unfair rules we have to put up with. Taxes can be unfair as hell, try not paying them and see what happens.
Johnny wanted a scholarship. He wanted the opportunity to play college ball. He signed up and in doing so took on the rules, unfair or no. And that scholarship came with exposure to the NFL, so pretending an internship in college ball is cheap labor is bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:08 am 
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Just an opinion, but I think he's done which is a sad thing.

JM misses out on a season, he drops in the draft, A&M fans miss a season of an outstanding college player to cheer for, college football misses an outstanding player, SEC loses an asset and marketing opportunity, and the NCAA goes on without missing a beat.

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:14 am 
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No, an internship in college ball IS cheap labor, and that's no BS.

These schools and the NCAA make billions off of these students and what do students get? A bunch of BS restrictions on who they can sell their own damn autograph to and a worthless-ass college degree, as most of them are now that we have artificially inflated the value of college degrees to such a ridiculous point that just going out and becoming a welder can make you more money than a large amount of college degrees can.

I mean, I enjoy college football, but let's be honest: These guys, for the eyeballs they pull in, should be making millions already (or at least hundreds of thousands) in a nationally-televised NFL D-League for players between 18 and 22.

This NCAA rule is stupid, but what NCAA rule isn't? It's a sham of an organization. Still, I do have to agree that if the sham of an organization is your only shot at making real Eff You money, you have to know all the stupid, moronic rules that they have since they have you by the balls.

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:49 am 
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What's funny is that people say ... "But, they get an education" ... how many of them graduate? Does "getting an education without graduating" count? How many get degrees, that allows them to get a J.O.B. ?
Many leave school after 2, 3 years. Without a degree.
Those who graduate do so in "African American History " or something like that. NO. I'm not trying to downplay "African American History", I'm AA myself and understand the value of history.
Many are even asked to take classes, that will "keep the eligible without having to work hard" (there are plenty of examples at UNC like Julius Peppers).
Colleges get tax payer money to educate Students, regardless ... I do pay taxes, so that students in my state, country get educated. In other countries in the world, Kids get an education without having be NFL Athletes.
I think the NCAA, the TV Networks, the millionaire coaches and the Colleges need to sit down and think through again how they run college athletics. This is a travesty. And someone needs to say it.
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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:53 am 
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Dude has some legit talent, but this is becoming a ridiculous media circus. Every day some other Manziel story is floating around, and it's a shame what fame has done to this guy. He has made some dumb mistakes himself, I'm just sick of hearing about this him right now though.

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:58 am 
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Smelly McUgly wrote:
No, an internship in college ball IS cheap labor, and that's no BS.

These schools and the NCAA make billions off of these students and what do students get? A bunch of BS restrictions on who they can sell their own damn autograph to and a worthless-ass college degree, as most of them are now that we have artificially inflated the value of college degrees to such a ridiculous point that just going out and becoming a welder can make you more money than a large amount of college degrees can.

I mean, I enjoy college football, but let's be honest: These guys, for the eyeballs they pull in, should be making millions already (or at least hundreds of thousands) in a nationally-televised NFL D-League for players between 18 and 22.

This NCAA rule is stupid, but what NCAA rule isn't? It's a sham of an organization. Still, I do have to agree that if the sham of an organization is your only shot at making real Eff You money, you have to know all the stupid, moronic rules that they have since they have you by the balls.



I don't think anyone with a brain (or who gets nothing monetarily out of them playing) is disputing the fact the kids should get paid something more than they get. But that said, you have to figure if they get paid now you have to pay woman's sports, who are a drain on money, and men's sports who break even or are a drain like baseball and rowing. In fact outside of Football and basketball, pretty much every sport uses more money than they make. Is it fair? No, but when you sign on the dotted line you know this is the way it will be.

When I was 18 I signed up to go and get shot at and get a chance to fight for my country, I got paid crap for a job that ensures our country's protection. Maybe instead of worrying about our entertainers, we should pay those who keep the US free.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:14 am 
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CPHawk: Though I do thank you for your service to our country, your last few lines were a non-sequitur. We are talking about football players, not the military. If you want to start a thread about how we need to fund our VA services at triple the amount that we do now and how we need to improve in mental health outreach and treatment for our vets, we can talk about that in the appropriate place (and I will be more than happy to bang the drum for your cause).

Back to my original point: In a perfect world, the NFL would have their own D-League where we could divorce big-money athletics from the university system. Again, I love my Sun Devils, but the drain that the football team places on the university in some ways does not seem worth it. When you have coaches bullying TAs into giving their players passing grades for doing no work and college coaches making millions on the dimes of state universities, something wrong has happened. It's not that the coaches don't deserve it based on the highly-pressurized work that they are doing in a business that generates billions of dollars; it's that business is in many ways overtaking the original business of a university.

Of course, the NFL has a farm league for free on the NCAA's behalf, so they won't move to do anything about this situation.

Anyway, I hope Manziel isn't punished too badly. If it all comes to the worst, he should just see what a CFL team will give him to play a year for them. No, I wasn't being serious with that last part (though if I were a star basketball player, I would see about bypassing college and going to play in Europe for a year ala Brandon Jennings).

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:26 am 
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If every College Sport loses money, how much money does my Chemistry department lose? How much money does my Computer Science department lose? How about the Medical Faculty?

Seriously, aren't schools there to Educate the students?
Why are they compared to publicly traded businesses Quarterly reports?
Basically the K-10 Form of the Security and Exchange Commission, that publicly traded companies are required to issue, where only profits and losses are what matters?

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:09 pm 
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CPHawk wrote:


I don't think anyone with a brain (or who gets nothing monetarily out of them playing) is disputing the fact the kids should get paid something more than they get. But that said, you have to figure if they get paid now you have to pay woman's sports, who are a drain on money, and men's sports who break even or are a drain like baseball and rowing. In fact outside of Football and basketball, pretty much every sport uses more money than they make. Is it fair? No, but when you sign on the dotted line you know this is the way it will be.

When I was 18 I signed up to go and get shot at and get a chance to fight for my country, I got paid crap for a job that ensures our country's protection. Maybe instead of worrying about our entertainers, we should pay those who keep the US free.


I don't think the NCAA should have to pay those players. Like you said, then they would have to pay women's sports and other sports that don't make money. IMO, there are much easier and better answers.

I just think there should be a free market, where individual players can make money off their talent outside of the NCAA. A guy like Manziel should be able to sell autographs and other things to make money. The ability to sell autographs and other things should have nothing to do with the NCAA.

There should be a free market, where boosters can pay players and allow the players to make as much money as possible. What's wrong with that? Let the players have bidding for their services in recruiting if possible. If the NCAA weren't a fraud, they wouldn't have a problem with it.

Since the NCAA is a big money business, the players should have the right to profit from their talent in a free market system. That's the best way to deal with it. The NCAA isn't a "non profit" like they want you to believe.

The NCAA wouldn't have to pay players and players would make as much money as their talent would dictate. A scholarship system sucks, because a third string guy is getting the same deal as the Heisman winner. That is unfair.

The best answer is an NFL like system where better players make money. The better players would get paid more. What's wrong with that?

BTW, your last line is laughable. I have as much respect as possible for the military, but acting like athletes and soldiers are the same is delusional. Athletes are entertainers. Just like singers, actors, etc. That's why they need to get paid. People want to watch them perform.

People are willing to PAY to watch them perform. Who pays to watch the military perform? When people start paying to watch the military perform, then we can start comparing them to entertainers. Since the athletes are the ones performing, then they need to get paid like any other entertainer.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:31 pm 
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The only equitable solution for all athletes that play college sports is to make the system for efficient. Despite its warts and everyone pounding the drum of the NCAA's greed, the rules are in place to ensure fairness on all levels across all schools.

The NCAA rules were set way before college football exploded. The rules are tight because people have abused the rules, setting the competitive balance off kilter. The goal of the NCAA is to see that every athlete is treated the same, regardless of their sport and status, whether you deem this to be fair, that's up to you. It is not the NCAA's fault that there hasn't been a sufficient semi pro league created in this country. If it is, its because the NCAA is so successful. So, in theory, you are penalizing the NCAA for being successful, fair?

Everyone rips on the BCS because its "corrupt" and is rigged to help the big schools, in theory, because the big schools make the most money and therefore have the most pull in decisions. People bitch about the lack of competitive balance because of the power that the big schools have, that the smaller schools are being forced to leverage themselves beyond their means or die in the arms race to keep up.


Yet these same people complain about players not getting paid? That these players need to be paid their fair market value and yada yada yada. With what? Whose got the money for that? Only the big schools.
So lets say that the revenue sports are allowed to play players. So, now, our entitled society gets what they want, the NCAA is abolished and in essence the NCAA turns into the minor leagues. The competitive balance is now non existant as schools like Alabama ink deals with an NFL team as feeder program. Sure, they can afford it but what about smaller schools that can't afford to pay for good talent? If they want to win, they have to pull funding for non revenue programs and kids that are on scholarships lose the scholarships. The importance of college football, which has that unheard of unique relevance unheard of in any other college sport is relegated to that of the NBA D-League. The charm of college football is gone because the players don't give a damn anymore, they got paid already, but, yeah, we don't care, its fair right? Market value and all that, we ignore what happened when the NBA was paying kids right out of high school and keep beating that "fairness" drum of "market value".

We rationalize it still, despite the fact that college football sucks right now, all the money your school(which isn't in the top tier) used to get based on tv deals(which had to be rewritten after conferences disbanded) is gone and they drop down to 1-AA because the scholarship system is still active down there, the talent pool sucks and it sure seems a waste but what the hell, we had to give money to immature teenagers rather than try and give them a college education.

By the way, I've yet to see anyone, Jay Bilas included, go into depth on how they would pay players. How would the system work? Provide some detail. Or are we just complaining to complain and don't have a tangible solution other than "pay the players". Give me some actual depth.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:39 pm 
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seahawk2k wrote:
The only equitable solution for all athletes that play college sports is to make the system for efficient. Despite its warts and everyone pounding the drum of the NCAA's greed, the rules are in place to ensure fairness on all levels across all schools.

The NCAA rules were set way before college football exploded. The rules are tight because people have abused the rules, setting the competitive balance off kilter. The goal of the NCAA is to see that every athlete is treated the same, regardless of their sport and status, whether you deem this to be fair, that's up to you. It is not the NCAA's fault that there hasn't been a sufficient semi pro league created in this country. If it is, its because the NCAA is so successful. So, in theory, you are penalizing the NCAA for being successful, fair?

Everyone rips on the BCS because its "corrupt" and is rigged to help the big schools, in theory, because the big schools make the most money and therefore have the most pull in decisions. People bitch about the lack of competitive balance because of the power that the big schools have, that the smaller schools are being forced to leverage themselves beyond their means or die in the arms race to keep up.


Yet these same people complain about players not getting paid? That these players need to be paid their fair market value and yada yada yada. With what? Whose got the money for that? Only the big schools.
So lets say that the revenue sports are allowed to play players. So, now, our entitled society gets what they want, the NCAA is abolished and in essence the NCAA turns into the minor leagues. The competitive balance is now non existant as schools like Alabama ink deals with an NFL team as feeder program. Sure, they can afford it but what about smaller schools that can't afford to pay for good talent? If they want to win, they have to pull funding for non revenue programs and kids that are on scholarships lose the scholarships. The importance of college football, which has that unheard of unique relevance unheard of in any other college sport is relegated to that of the NBA D-League. The charm of college football is gone because the players don't give a damn anymore, they got paid already, but, yeah, we don't care, its fair right? Market value and all that, we ignore what happened when the NBA was paying kids right out of high school and keep beating that "fairness" drum of "market value".

We rationalize it still, despite the fact that college football sucks right now, all the money your school(which isn't in the top tier) used to get based on tv deals(which had to be rewritten after conferences disbanded) is gone and they drop down to 1-AA because the scholarship system is still active down there, the talent pool sucks and it sure seems a waste but what the hell, we had to give money to immature teenagers rather than try and give them a college education.

By the way, I've yet to see anyone, Jay Bilas included, go into depth on how they would pay players. How would the system work? Provide some detail. Or are we just complaining to complain and don't have a tangible solution other than "pay the players". Give me some actual depth.


Read my previous post. I've answered how I would pay players. The NCAA would not be involved.

I'll post it again. Here you go:

"I don't think the NCAA should have to pay those players. IMO, there are much easier and better answers.

I just think there should be a free market, where individual players can make money off their talent outside of the NCAA. A guy like Manziel should be able to sell autographs and other things to make money. The ability to sell autographs and other things should have nothing to do with the NCAA.

There should be a free market, where boosters can pay players and allow the players to make as much money as possible. What's wrong with that? Let the players have bidding for their services in recruiting if possible. If the NCAA weren't a fraud, they wouldn't have a problem with it.

Since the NCAA is a big money business, the players should have the right to profit from their talent in a free market system. That's the best way to deal with it. The NCAA isn't a "non profit" like they want you to believe.

The NCAA wouldn't have to pay players and players would make as much money as their talent would dictate. A scholarship system sucks, because a third string guy is getting the same deal as the Heisman winner. That is unfair.

The best answer is an NFL like system where better players make money. The better players would get paid more. What's wrong with that?"


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:44 pm 
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That system skews the competitive balance. If you don't have boosters with deep pockets you can't afford the good talent. This isn't the NFL, its college football. There isn't a salary cap, and there would be no cap on spending. All of sports that involve salaries to players have the money somewhat regulated to ensure that the playing field is remotely level.

I agree that players should be able to profit from their own autographs and things of that ilk, but I think that still would have to be regulated. The more you deregulate and the more you pay, the more you turn college into the NFL, I like the distinction.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:08 pm 
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seahawk2k wrote:
That system skews the competitive balance. If you don't have boosters with deep pockets you can't afford the good talent. This isn't the NFL, its college football. There isn't a salary cap, and there would be no cap on spending. All of sports that involve salaries to players have the money somewhat regulated to ensure that the playing field is remotely level.

I agree that players should be able to profit from their own autographs and things of that ilk, but I think that still would have to be regulated. The more you deregulate and the more you pay, the more you turn college into the NFL, I like the distinction.


Where's the regulation in MLB? Or soccer? There is none. That is how it should be. Athletes should be able to make as much money as possible from their talent. It should be a complete free market, like it is in real life. Who would stop you or me, from making as much money as we can legally? Nobody, because we live in America, not in the old Soviet Union.

If somebody or school or team is willing to pay you more money, who is the NCAA to say no? We live in America and in a free market society. You should be able to be paid as much as someone is willing to pay you. That would be fair, but sadly it's extremely unlikely for the corrupt NCAA, who wants to control the athletes.

College football is pretty much the NFL, in terms of how the NCAA makes billions of dollars. The difference is that the NFL fairly compensates their athletes, while the NCAA doesn't. If there's relegation, then it should be by a third party, who has no allegiance to the NCAA. The NCAA only has their own best interests.

The NCAA is employing indentured servitude. The NCAA isn't a "non profit" organization. They are a multi billion dollar industry, using athletes in order to make money, while not fairly compensating athletes. If it wasn't such a sickening fraud, it would be laughable. Compared to the money athletes bring in to the NCAA, a scholarship is essentially worthless.

BTW, boosters will always have an affect and schools with money will always have an advantage. Check out the facilities Uncle Phil has built in Eugene. Check out the facilities at Oklahoma State due to the billionaire booster T. Boone Pickens. You can ignore this, but these facilities have a direct affect on recruiting and these men are the biggest reasons their schools have had the success they've had.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:02 pm 
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You know how F***ed up this would be?

Its like watching USC ( New York Yankeys) dishing out 100million dollars in payroll for their own players. Yes, and is there gonna be a cap to this free agents of college players? It doesn't matter right because you should be able to be paid as much as someone is willing to pay you.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:13 pm 
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Carmon1274 wrote:
You know how F***ed up this would be?

Its like watching USC ( New York Yankeys) dishing out 100million dollars in payroll for their own players. Yes, and is there gonna be a cap to this free agents of college players? It doesn't matter right because you should be able to be paid as much as someone is willing to pay you.


"It doesn't matter right because you should be able to be paid as much as someone is willing to pay you."

Exactly. That's the American way of life. The free market way. If you don't like it, there's always communism, where the gov. (NCAA) decides how much you should make. Do you think that's better?

There is no cap in MLB and soccer. They're doing fine. Even if there was a cap, like the NFL, it wouldn't be bad, because at least the athletes would be getting fairly compensated, which is what matters. BTW, I doubt you get mad when the Seahawks spend millions on players.

But, IMO, this proposal would be fair to all the sides. The NCAA would continue to make billions and the athletes would get compensated. What's wrong with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Dawgs0 wrote:
Carmon1274 wrote:
You know how F***ed up this would be?

Its like watching USC ( New York Yankeys) dishing out 100million dollars in payroll for their own players. Yes, and is there gonna be a cap to this free agents of college players? It doesn't matter right because you should be able to be paid as much as someone is willing to pay you.


"It doesn't matter right because you should be able to be paid as much as someone is willing to pay you."

Exactly. That's the American way of life. The free market way. If you don't like it, there's always communism, where the gov. (NCAA) decides how much you should make. Do you think that's better?

There is no cap in MLB and soccer. They're doing fine. Even if there was a cap, like the NFL, it wouldn't be bad, because at least the athletes would be getting fairly compensated, which is what matters. BTW, I doubt you get mad when the Seahawks spend millions on players.

But, IMO, this proposal would be fair to all the sides. The NCAA would continue to make billions and the athletes would get compensated. What's wrong with that?



Should give up on the Mariners then when they are one of the bottom teams in team salary.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:47 pm 
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Also if schools bribe players, or give them money.

It's not wrong for Professional teams to distribute heavy $$ to refs then right?


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:14 pm 
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I am saddened that Manziel would (allegedly) display such poor judgement. He risked a season and perhaps millions of dollars in draft stock over a few thousand bucks he didn't need. Even if he thought it was legal, it just makes him look dumb for not doing his homework first. To me, this makes me question his character and discipline as much as Alec Ogletree's Combine week DUI.

That said, I do think that it's a little silly that autograph selling is against the rules. He's technically being paid for a service/product. It's different than what Reggie Bush and others received. Though I guess one could argue that if not enforced, such practice could become a loophole.

In all seriousness, I really do wish that college teams were allowed to pay their players. With the NFL rookie pay scale being so low right now, it might not take a ton of money for colleges to entice players to stay for their 4th or 5th seasons. You wouldn't have any more Darron Thomases, etc. Allowing college fans a chance to keep their favorite players an extra year or two would be nice, and I'm guessing NFL scouting departments probably wouldn't complain too much either. Underclassmen bombed in the 2013 draft, something like 40% of them didn't even get drafted.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:20 am 
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Carmon1274 wrote:
Also if schools bribe players, or give them money.

It's not wrong for Professional teams to distribute heavy $$ to refs then right?


Here are some facts. In life some succeed and others fail. Some are rich and some are poor. It's sad, but it's a fact. The schools with money will succeed and the schools without it won't. Almost like it is right now. Better athletes will always go to teams with money and nice facilities, even if the athletes don't get paid. Teams with money have better facilities, which attracts better athletes.

Schools like Oregon will continue to win, because of their money and schools like Portland State won't, because of their lack of money. The teams who win won't change if athletes are paid. The only thing that will change is that athletes will be fairly compensated. I highly doubt that the teams who win will have a bigger advantage than they do now, in terms of facilities, etc.

Almost a "survival of the fittest". That applies heavily to sports as well. Teams with money will succeed, while teams without it will fall behind. It's sad, but that's a moral issue. It's life. That has nothing to do with whether players should be compensated for their talent. Not paying players to try to prevent an unfixable and moral problem is wrong and unfair to the athletes.

The thing with baseball and the Mariners is that, like the Yankees, they have the opportunity to spend more money. They have the opportunity. The fact that they don't spend more money is the Mariners fault. Not MLBs or the system's fault. You can continue to blame the system, but MLB has never stated that the Mariners can't spend more money or have they? Haha.

BTW, bribery is against the law. I don't think you understand that. Nothing I have proposed is against the law. Schools paying athletes is not against the law. Having bidding wars, like teams do on professional athletes, isn't against the law. Letting athletes profit off their talent isn't against the law. Do you understand that? Hope I explained it better.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:04 am 
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Educational systems are rooted in the attempt at equal opportunity, thereby making college sports adherent to those same scholastic philosophies. College football programs are used to fund other programs as well as other activities in the university unrelated to football. In order to compete in your "Moral" plan, a school would have to pull funding from non-revenue sports. So, in your Darwinian argument which, I agree with in many aspects of life, those people would be SOL because they chose to excel in a non-revenue sport.

I'm not sure you understand the interconnectivity of university funding. But its fun to talk in absolutes. Carry on.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:30 pm 
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seahawk2k wrote:
Educational systems are rooted in the attempt at equal opportunity, thereby making college sports adherent to those same scholastic philosophies. College football programs are used to fund other programs as well as other activities in the university unrelated to football. In order to compete in your "Moral" plan, a school would have to pull funding from non-revenue sports. So, in your Darwinian argument which, I agree with in many aspects of life, those people would be SOL because they chose to excel in a non-revenue sport.

I'm not sure you understand the interconnectivity of university funding. But its fun to talk in absolutes. Carry on.


If somebody outside of the NCAA is willing to pay you more money, who is the NCAA to say no? We live in America and in a free market society. You should be able to be paid as much as someone is willing to pay you. The fact that non revenue sport athletes won't make that money doesn't matter. If non revenue athletes aren't able to sell autographs or make money, that shouldn't stop other athletes from making money in a free market system.

The NCAA shouldn't have to directly pay athletes, but if an athlete is able to profit of his talent, why should the NCAA stop it? Your view of college athletics would make sense if the NCAA wasn't making billions from college football. College athletics aren't equal. Some sports make money and some sports don't make money for their schools and the NCAA.

Athletic programs won't have to pull funding from non-revenue sports, because schools wouldn't be directly paying these athletes. Athletes would be able to sell their own things (advertisements, etc.) and if boosters wanted to then they could pay athletes as well.

I just think there should be a free market, where individual athletes can make money off their talent outside of the NCAA. A guy like Manziel should be able to sell autographs and other things to make money. The ability to sell autographs and other things should have nothing to do with the NCAA.

There should be a free market, where boosters can pay athletes and allow the athletes to make as much money as possible. What's wrong with that? Let the athletes have bidding for their services in recruiting if possible and if the athletes want it.

BTW, and I'll say this again, boosters will always have an affect and schools with money will always have an advantage. Check out the facilities Uncle Phil has built in Eugene. Check out the facilities at Oklahoma State due to the billionaire booster T. Boone Pickens. You can ignore this, but these facilities have a direct affect on recruiting and these men are the biggest reasons their schools have had the success they've had.

Since the NCAA is a big money business, the athletes should have the right to profit from their talent in a free market system. That's the best way to deal with it. The NCAA isn't a "non profit" like they want you to believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:26 pm 
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Fair enough. Like I said, I agree about autographs, but anything further should be regulated. I do not think its wise to allow boosters to directly pay players. These are kids, they shouldn't be showered with that kind of money. There is a difference between indirect funding(Athletic buildings, new facilities, donations) and direct payments to players. Surely you know that.

And I have never once minimized the impact that new facilities create, I've donated to my own schools much needed facility upgrades for years.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:57 pm 
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seahawk2k wrote:
Fair enough. Like I said, I agree about autographs, but anything further should be regulated. I do not think its wise to allow boosters to directly pay players. These are kids, they shouldn't be showered with that kind of money. There is a difference between indirect funding(Athletic buildings, new facilities, donations) and direct payments to players. Surely you know that.

And I have never once minimized the impact that new facilities create, I've donated to my own schools much needed facility upgrades for years.


Athletes are entertainers, are they not? So when entertainers get paid in the music or other entertainment industries in similar age groups, where is the difference? Should those "kids" not be "showered with that kind of money", when they earn it? That's laughable.

BTW, these athletes aren't "kids", they are 18-22 year old adults. These athletes bring in billions, so no matter how old they are, they should be able to be fairly compensated for what they bring in to the schools and the NCAA. It's only fair in the free market country we live in.

I mean boosters don't HAVE to pay them, but I'm sure many boosters would want to. If boosters want to compensate athletes for the money those athletes bring in, why should the NCAA stop it? Why should the NCAA stop athletes from making money legally? What's wrong with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Soon elementary, Intermediate Schools and High School students would demand to get paid.


Do you even realize how much the NCAAF pay the schools when they play the BCS bowl?

If ND got into a BCS Bid, the school would earn 6.1mill.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:49 pm 
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Dawgs0 wrote:
seahawk2k wrote:
Fair enough. Like I said, I agree about autographs, but anything further should be regulated. I do not think its wise to allow boosters to directly pay players. These are kids, they shouldn't be showered with that kind of money. There is a difference between indirect funding(Athletic buildings, new facilities, donations) and direct payments to players. Surely you know that.

And I have never once minimized the impact that new facilities create, I've donated to my own schools much needed facility upgrades for years.


Athletes are entertainers, are they not? So when entertainers get paid in the music or other entertainment industries in similar age groups, where is the difference? Should those "kids" not be "showered with that kind of money", when they earn it? That's laughable.

BTW, these athletes aren't "kids", they are 18-22 year old adults. These athletes bring in billions, so no matter how old they are, they should be able to be fairly compensated for what they bring in to the schools and the NCAA. It's only fair in the free market country we live in.

I mean boosters don't HAVE to pay them, but I'm sure many boosters would want to. If boosters want to compensate athletes for the money those athletes bring in, why should the NCAA stop it? Why should the NCAA stop athletes from making money legally? What's wrong with that?


I'm not arguing this further. I've said my piece, you've said yours. No use beating a dead horse. Its not like either of us is going to come around to the others point at this juncture. Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Great write up on the Manziels.

http://deadspin.com/the-long-con-how-th ... 1040593220


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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:44 am 
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He reminds me of Colt McCoy, only much better under duress.

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:09 pm 
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I don't know that I've ever read more idiotic arguments in my life. Even responding to them would just serve to make us all more stupid. 'Murica... where you can do whatever you want, and there should be no regulamation by nobody no how, because that's just un 'Murican. YEEE-haw!!!!! (shoots pistols into a crowded festival while dancing around Yosemite Sam style for effect).

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 Post subject: Re: Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:11 am 
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He's still better than any QB in the Pac-whatever. Carry on haters.


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