Will Thurmond win the job over Browner...?

scutterhawk

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Tech Worlds":31eu88o8 said:
It's amazing to see so many homers jump Montana for a spot on post
Not jumping on Montana for anything but his, and your homerism for Thurmond.
Like has already been pointed out, Thurmond hasn't played enough to warrant taking Pro Bowl Browners job.
 

EastCoastHawksFan

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scutterhawk":xfgb4mc3 said:
kobebryant":xfgb4mc3 said:
MontanaHawk05":xfgb4mc3 said:
I've never seen anything to make me believe Browner is the better corner. .

I have. Starts, INTs, PDs, FFs,TFLs and a probowl.

I don't think any of us have seen enough of Thurmond in live game action to rationally suggest that he is a probowl caliber player; that is optimism taken slightly too far.
THIS!


:13:
 

Tical21

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Agreed with the past few posts. LOL at the people asking what Browner has shown us vs. what Thurmond has shown us. I was pumped for Thurmond out of college and think he has talent. People saying he no question is the more talented? Based on what? His junior year of college? Thurmond is still halfway through his first cup of NFL coffee in terms of playing time. He looked pretty good in three games. Fantastic! What has Thurmond shown us? IMO he has shown us that he needs quite a bit longer track record of being able to stay on the field before you risk pissing off one of your better starting players.

Browner is also still improving. He's already damn good. There isn't a single team in the NFL he wouldn't start for. Of course it would be a good thing if Thurmond outplays him, but to say Thurmond has earned the chance to start after 8 healthy practices is borderline idiotic. Sure, let him run with the 1s a few times to see what he's got and to press Browner to play better. But demote your very good CB for a guy that hasn't shown anything besides looking good in street clothes? Out of the 34 games the Seahawks have played the last two years, Thurmond has been healthy enough to play in 8. If Browner wasn't damn good, sure, roll the dice, but lets see Thurmond can manage to suit up for a few games before we get too far ahead of ourselves.
 

SeaTown81

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Tech Worlds":2o88f47c said:
Jordan... If thurmond wins the job and can stay healthy he will cost us more to resign then Browner for all the reasons you posted.

Browner won't have much value on the open market as imo he is only a fit on our team and has Earl there to cover his deficiencies.

Yeah, that would be true. But that would be in a scenario where Thurmond looks all-pro out there. In my thinking, he merely looks like he's finally starting to click. Which in that case, coupled with his injury history, would likely lead to still having to prove a bit. Where as Browner can point to making the pro bowl and producing for multiple seasons. And while he does have more value to us than many teams. More teams are going after bigger corners in the wake of our success.

I can see the Hawks re-signing Browner. But it would have to be at a reasonable deal. Maybe you're right, and there aren't any teams out there wanting to give him much due to his age and unique game. In that case, I'd be fine with keeping him.

And for the record to any folks scoffing at those of us talking up Thurmond and downplaying Browner. I most certainly agree that Thurmond needs to prove he can stay healthy and consistently produce. That remains a gigantic hurdle for him.
 

thebanjodude

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This is a load of garbage. Browner has made multiple game changing clutch plays (Giants, Packers, Panthers) and sets the tone for the physicality of this defense. I'll take Browner any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
 

MontanaHawk05

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Browner also cost us a game in 2011 with the same sort of vulnerability he often displays. KEEP READING. YOU'RE ALREADY CHECKING OUT, ASSUMING WHAT THE REST OF MY POST WILL LOOK LIKE, AND PLANNING YOUR OWN. STICK WITH ME. I'M STILL TALKING.

I guess I'm not often one to appeal to intangibles. I'll grant that our physicality has made a distinct difference in the way certain teams hold up against us, but that's only part of the picture. Consider that the defense pivots on Earl Thomas, a much smaller guy who will never dominate big receivers like Browner can. It's a reminder that it takes a lot of skill sets to complete a defense. Browner has his uses, has a knack for turnovers, and certainly holds nothing back when he plays for us. But he's not a shutdown corner - lacks fluidity, lacks trustworthiness on deeper plays, and as others have pointed out, his play style is a penalty magnet. He did get better in 2012.

I think some people have the idea that Thurmond has never played a regular season down for Seattle. He's played in 22 games in three seasons. Frustrated sarcasm over his frequent injuries are bound to cloud people's view of him, but he HAS flashed tremendous talent - of the shutdown variety - in his limited time on the field. And it's not like he was a Ruskell leftover. He was drafted and faithfully retained by the same administration, with the same coverage vision, that scrounged up Browner and made him a Pro Bowler.

All I'm saying is, the RCB spot should still be considered open to competition. That's not a knock on Browner in this case; it's a compliment to Thurmond. It's a good problem to have, really.
 

TheLargentLine

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Pete Carroll just discussed the nickel spot between Winfield and Thurmond as "a real battle" while .net fights over who should start between BB and WT3. Fantastic.

All will see significant playing time - and that is awesome.
 

Tical21

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MontanaHawk05":1cemljrw said:
Browner also cost us a game in 2011 with the same sort of vulnerability he often displays. KEEP READING. YOU'RE ALREADY CHECKING OUT, ASSUMING WHAT THE REST OF MY POST WILL LOOK LIKE, AND PLANNING YOUR OWN. STICK WITH ME. I'M STILL TALKING.

I guess I'm not often one to appeal to intangibles. I'll grant that our physicality has made a distinct difference in the way certain teams hold up against us, but that's only part of the picture. Consider that the defense pivots on Earl Thomas, a much smaller guy who will never dominate big receivers like Browner can. It's a reminder that it takes a lot of skill sets to complete a defense. Browner has his uses, has a knack for turnovers, and certainly holds nothing back when he plays for us. But he's not a shutdown corner - lacks fluidity, lacks trustworthiness on deeper plays, and as others have pointed out, his play style is a penalty magnet. He did get better in 2012.

I think some people have the idea that Thurmond has never played a regular season down for Seattle. He's played in 22 games in three seasons. Frustrated sarcasm over his frequent injuries are bound to cloud people's view of him, but he HAS flashed tremendous talent - of the shutdown variety - in his limited time on the field. And it's not like he was a Ruskell leftover. He was drafted and faithfully retained by the same administration, with the same coverage vision, that scrounged up Browner and made him a Pro Bowler.

All I'm saying is, the RCB spot should still be considered open to competition. That's not a knock on Browner in this case; it's a compliment to Thurmond. It's a good problem to have, really.
Good read. I just have a few questions, maybe digging a little bit.

In how many of those 22 games did Thurmond play significant time at corner?

Put the over/under at 12 games, and you have to bet your house. Does Thurmond play more or less this season?

I would argue that just about every player in the league has flashed significant talent at some point.

I agree that the RCB should be open to competition, as with every position. I would argue, however, that ANY player drafted in the 4th round because of injury concerns that has shown very little on the field and has missed far more games than they have played would have a right to be considered in that competition, unless the starter is really, really bad.

I'm all for Walter Thurmond becoming a great player. But at this point he has to have a lot more than a few healthy practices and a couple preseason games under his belt before he can be trusted to replace one of the key contributors to the best secondary in the NFL.
 

-The Glove-

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scutterhawk":1pm8mgr4 said:
Tech Worlds":1pm8mgr4 said:
It's amazing to see so many homers jump Montana for a spot on post
Not jumping on Montana for anything but his, and your homerism for Thurmond.
Like has already been pointed out, Thurmond hasn't played enough to warrant taking Pro Bowl Browners job.
He beat out All-pro Sherman before he got hurt. In the little I've seen of him, Thurmond has always stuck out to me as being in the right place at the right time. Pete obviously has some type of affinity for Thurmond, otherwise he'd be gone by now being so oft-injured.
 

themunn

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-The Glove-":2upx2yaf said:
scutterhawk":2upx2yaf said:
Tech Worlds":2upx2yaf said:
It's amazing to see so many homers jump Montana for a spot on post
Not jumping on Montana for anything but his, and your homerism for Thurmond.
Like has already been pointed out, Thurmond hasn't played enough to warrant taking Pro Bowl Browners job.

He beat out All-pro Sherman before he got hurt. In the little I've seen of him, Thurmond has always stuck out to me as being in the right place at the right time. Pete obviously has some type of affinity for Thurmond, otherwise he'd be gone by now being so oft-injured.

Our starting corners in game 1 that season were Marcus Trufant and Brandon Browner... meaning both of them beat out Thurmond and Sherman. Does that mean that Trufant and Browner are the best 2 corners on the team?
What does that tell you? Yes, Pete Carroll preaches competition, but he values actual playing time over what someone has shown in practice significantly more.

Also, Sherman wasn't "All-pro" at that point, he was a rookie with 1 year of experience playing cornerback

TDOTSEAHAWK":2upx2yaf said:
Besides I have have seen many many good things from Browner. Beyond his size (which can't be stressed enough in a Carroll run defense) and durability (which cannot simply be ignored) he had 64 passes to his side last season and he gave up 30 receptions. His 5.5 yards/target is the 3rd best in the league. His adjusted success rate - which takes into account penalties was 61% - good for 10th. He certainly benefits from playing opposite Sherman but he is no slouch himself and is well above average as a second outside corner. Anyone remember Kelly Jennings?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-a ... stats-2012

If anything I'd say the opposite is true - because Sherman and Browner don't follow receivers around, he often finds himself lining up against the opposition's number 1 receiver as teams want to avoid Sherman.
 

Scottemojo

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Wow. This question evokes lots of emotion.

I was always under the impression that Thurmond was competing for nickel.

Both are essentially playing for new contracts. Tical said Browner could play for any team. So not true. Browner is a brutal press corner, but doesn't look so good in zone. There will be a number of penalties with his style of play, there just will. Pete has acknowledged as much.

Montana pointed out he lost a game once. Well, he won the Panthers game. After he settled in, his play vs Washington in the playoffs was great. Brutal, but IIRC, the Washington receivers did a lot of yapping that week and initiatied the rough play.
And vs Atlanta, Browner was good. Thurmond was where? 22 out of 48 games is not reliable.

When I try to figure out which one to keep, age vs injuries is the question. Versatility vs single side corner. Brute vs technician. playmaker vs possible shutdown corner who is in repair shop more than half the time. PED user (which might be behind some of the sentiment) vs as yet clean player. I get the feeling a little patience will take care of the question. Jeremy Lane is part of the equation as well.
 

TDOTSEAHAWK

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TDOTSEAHAWK":uxknqud0 said:
Besides I have have seen many many good things from Browner. Beyond his size (which can't be stressed enough in a Carroll run defense) and durability (which cannot simply be ignored) he had 64 passes to his side last season and he gave up 30 receptions. His 5.5 yards/target is the 3rd best in the league. His adjusted success rate - which takes into account penalties was 61% - good for 10th. He certainly benefits from playing opposite Sherman but he is no slouch himself and is well above average as a second outside corner. Anyone remember Kelly Jennings?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-a ... stats-2012

If anything I'd say the opposite is true - because Sherman and Browner don't follow receivers around, he often finds himself lining up against the opposition's number 1 receiver as teams want to avoid Sherman.[/quote]

The benefit is having ET over the top favouring his side. Browner would not be as effective without help over the top because jamming the receiver is one of the more effective parts lf his game (which is by design in a Carroll system).

By the way, on another note, I have never seen the "homer" card played at such an innapropriate time. Backing a pro bowl caliber starting corner vs a guy who has shown flashes of brilliance in 2010 and at three TCs is the furthest thing from homerism. It is simply rational.

Sherman can play basically 1 on 1 with anyone and can close off his side.

Thurmond could as well but his lack of physicality off the line hurts him on the outside in our system. Bigger recievers may manhandle him. Our whole defensive backfield philosophy is to disrupt timing by being aggresive off the line. I think with Browner on thr team, Thurmond is more appropriate for the nickel where his fluidity is a great asset.
 

sutz

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Interesting discussion, guys. For one thing, I'm certainly glad that the discussion of our DBs has evolved from "who will do the least damage and get burned the fewest times" to "who will be the best player to put out there" with the argument being between some pretty good players.

We have a good selection of DBs of differing styles, sizes, and talents. Frankly, I could see a bit of mixing and matching vs different opponents and receivers. Even our backups are not slouches. We were in a bit of a panic when BB was suspended last year, but that turned out to be one of the most successful parts of the season. Not because BB was gone, but because our bench stepped up and made us not miss him that much. It ended up being like the OL the year before. Injuries knocked out 'key' players, but the team carried on. If there is one thing that Pete & Co have brought us that we have had little of for many years, it is resilience. Discussions like this only reinforce, to me, how deep this team is across the board.

In answer to the initial question: Will Thurmond win the job over Browner...? I'd say it's doubtful, but I guess it could happen.
 

MizzouHawkGal

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Tical21":3249qr61 said:
Agreed with the past few posts. LOL at the people asking what Browner has shown us vs. what Thurmond has shown us. I was pumped for Thurmond out of college and think he has talent. People saying he no question is the more talented? Based on what? His junior year of college? Thurmond is still halfway through his first cup of NFL coffee in terms of playing time. He looked pretty good in three games. Fantastic! What has Thurmond shown us? IMO he has shown us that he needs quite a bit longer track record of being able to stay on the field before you risk pissing off one of your better starting players.

Browner is also still improving. He's already damn good. There isn't a single team in the NFL he wouldn't start for. Of course it would be a good thing if Thurmond outplays him, but to say Thurmond has earned the chance to start after 8 healthy practices is borderline idiotic. Sure, let him run with the 1s a few times to see what he's got and to press Browner to play better. But demote your very good CB for a guy that hasn't shown anything besides looking good in street clothes? Out of the 34 games the Seahawks have played the last two years, Thurmond has been healthy enough to play in 8. If Browner wasn't damn good, sure, roll the dice, but lets see Thurmond can manage to suit up for a few games before we get too far ahead of ourselves.
Agreed. But it sure is a nice "problem" to have. I still remember the Kelly Jennings days. Except being able to play for anyone. I believe Browner is a system guy that happens to fit our scheme like a glove but have him playing zone? Not so good in my opinion.
 

Tech Worlds

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I think reading comprehension is an undervalued thing here on the olé message board.

Nobody is saying that thurmond has earned the starting spot nor should he have it right now. But... If he out plays browner he should get it as the mantra here is competition.
 

Largent80

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Thurmond has a lot to prove. Not only to the coaches but to himself.

Personally, I don't see him supplanting Browner.
 

Evil_Shenanigans

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Let them compete! That has been, and continues to be the ethos of this team. Do I think Thurmond is capable of taking Browners Spot? No, not based on the body of work I have seen from him thus far in his career. Any coach would be a fool to mess with the startlingly efficient combination that is the LOB. Thurmond was brought in to supplant Kelly Jennings IIRC. And he would have, had he stayed healthy and had Browner not come to the party and impressed all with his Pre-season play the following year. As others have mentioned, Sherman is going to be the tipping point for any of these guys. If Sherman winds up getting the kind of money that has been discussed, then the Team will simply have no way to keep the current LOB intact! That opens doors for guys like Lane and Thurmond. It will surely be fun to watch!

Thursday night can't get here soon enough!
 

SoulfishHawk

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It's a great problem to have, it's all about depth and competition. Not long ago, we had Jennings and Wilson, ugh.
 

drdiags

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To the question of whether WTIII would beat out Browner for starting RCB, trust has to be part of the conversation with the coaches. If WTIII wins the job based on play, would the secondary coaches put their jobs on the line and sign off on trading Browner for the sake of keeping locker room distractions to a minimum? Sort of like moving Jackson once it was obvious Wilson had the juice. I couldn't make the trade. Could JS/PC?

The same question applies for WTIII beating out Winfield. I think Thurmond ends up with the same role he had last year when he was active. I do think WTIII will be the more likely of the two vs Browner of being a target to re-sign. I could see the team re-signing him with a chance for him to compete for the starter in place of BB.

There is also a pretty good chance a trade is going to happen in this position group, though it isn't going to be for a high pick. I think WTIII is a possibility in a trade scenario as well.
 
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