Read Option : the 49ers version

Marvin49

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RolandDeschain":2uiiar56 said:
12th_Bob":2uiiar56 said:
Also, Kam's hit took Davis out of the game plan that week which probably limited the 49 play book in Seattle.
I wouldn't bet on it. Kaepernick barely targeted Davis throughout the regular season once he was the starter.

Marvin49":2uiiar56 said:
Remember...Alex ran effectively the same offense and wasn't anywhere NEAR as effective on longer passes.
Not really. Alex Smith attempted deep passes (defined as any pass attempt in the air 20+ yards) on 8.7% of his throws. Kaepernick attempted them 15.1% of the time. Almost twice as many.

Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?

The offense was the same....the QBs decision making within the framework of that offense was completely different.

Alex was far less accurate on longer passes and checked down ALOT more often to shorter passes. Stacking the line was effective against the 49ers because Alex usually wouldn't throw deep down the field to take advantage of the D stacking the box.

Kaep made teams pay for stacking the box because he was much more willing to throw deeper passes and far more accurate when doing so.
 

RolandDeschain

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Marvin49":28j81igc said:
Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?
47.4%. Kaepernick had 60.6%, which as you stated, was #1 in the league. However, I doubt Kaepernick will maintain that. We'll see. (Even with Crabtree back in the mix.) Small sample size with Kaepernick, let's see where that winds up at for 2013.

Marvin49":28j81igc said:
The offense was the same
Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.
 

Scottemojo

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RolandDeschain":iao5o3k8 said:
Marvin49":iao5o3k8 said:
Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?
47.4%. Kaepernick had 60.6%, which as you stated, was #1 in the league. However, I doubt Kaepernick will maintain that. We'll see. (Even with Crabtree back in the mix.) Small sample size with Kaepernick, let's see where that winds up at for 2013.

Marvin49":iao5o3k8 said:
The offense was the same
Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.
No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.
 

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The offense was not the same when Kap came in. And to say it was is complete blind. Smith was deadly in the short and mid game. This is where I believe Kap was struggling. the Mid to long ball is Kaps strong point (in passing). He needs to learn about the check down and short passing accuracy. This is why sometimes Smith was called captain checkdown ;)
 

Scottemojo

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rlkats":18yzqdth said:
The offense was not the same when Kap came in. And to say it was is complete blind. Smith was deadly in the short and mid game. This is where I believe Kap was struggling. the Mid to long ball is Kaps strong point (in passing). He needs to learn about the check down and short passing accuracy. This is why sometimes Smith was called captain checkdown ;)
Well, I think there is some confusion here. Harbaugh said they didn't change the offense for Kaepernick, when clearly they called a lot more pistol. It just wasn't new, they ahd run it in a few spots before. Mostly thought, Harbs was just being a dinkus to a reporter, IMO.
 

RolandDeschain

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Scottemojo":1wbjblj8 said:
No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.

Yeah, but wasn't Smith off the field for that?
 

rlkats

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I agree Scott. When Harbaugh speaks to reporters I tune him out. I dont know when he i F in with them or serious. Roland ya Smith was of the field for that.
 

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The offense was clearly different. The offense under Alex was all about minimizing turnovers and risks. It was very conservative. Alex preferred to check down and take sacks than take any downfield risks.

Under kaepernick it was more heavy run and down field passing. Also more pistol formation as stated above which Alex hardly ever ran.
 

Marvin49

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Scottemojo":34mj211h said:
RolandDeschain":34mj211h said:
Marvin49":34mj211h said:
Correct. What was Alex's completion % on those passes compared to Kaeps?
47.4%. Kaepernick had 60.6%, which as you stated, was #1 in the league. However, I doubt Kaepernick will maintain that. We'll see. (Even with Crabtree back in the mix.) Small sample size with Kaepernick, let's see where that winds up at for 2013.

Marvin49":34mj211h said:
The offense was the same
Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.
No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.

Correct.

The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.
 

Marvin49

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heyu123":32c9dnhq said:
The offense was clearly different. The offense under Alex was all about minimizing turnovers and risks. It was very conservative. Alex preferred to check down and take sacks than take any downfield risks.

Under kaepernick it was more heavy run and down field passing. Also more pistol formation as stated above which Alex hardly ever ran.

While its true that they incorporated the Pistol package more as Kaep became the starter, The 49ers had just as many deep routes with Alex than with Kaep. The difference is that Alex wouldn't throw the ball and would check down. Kaep would make the throw.

It was the same offense. Cutting edge RUN BASED offense with multiple shifts at the line and fairly easy reads in the passing game. Just about every type of run play you can think of and a few you can't. That run game is what made play action so deadly and is a big reason why Kaep was almost always able to find player open down the field. He is a very accurate thrower of those passes, but the scheme was very good at creating those matchups.

Alex had those same advantages...in fact the 49ers rush offense was BETTER with Alex than with Kaep....but Alex just wouldn't take those chances. That's why his passes were always so short and why he rarely turned the ball over.
 

RolandDeschain

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Marvin49":2171hvyc said:
The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

INCORRECT, SIR. One of the 49ers coaches spiked the Gatorade jugs on the Packers sideline before the game with something to make them colorblind, and they got confused and ended up blocking FOR Kaepernick, creating running lanes for him, instead of trying to stop him from running. The video evidence proves me correct.
 

Marvin49

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RolandDeschain":z48p4s73 said:
Marvin49":z48p4s73 said:
The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

INCORRECT, SIR. One of the 49ers coaches spiked the Gatorade jugs on the Packers sideline before the game with something to make them colorblind, and they got confused and ended up blocking FOR Kaepernick, creating running lanes for him, instead of trying to stop him from running. The video evidence proves me correct.

lol. :D
 

Scottemojo

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Marvin49":111iwrya said:
Scottemojo":111iwrya said:
RolandDeschain":111iwrya said:
Do you have any actual linkable evidence to provide to support this? I don't know one way or the other, but frankly, it doesn't make sense that Kaep would keep the same offense, and I'm pretty sure Smith wasn't running the pistol a quarter of the time.
No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.

Correct.

The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.
You are being obtuse. The RO is just one option out of the pistol. And the Niners put plenty of it on tape for the Packers. They didn't run one new look for the Pack. The Packers had a plan, and it sucked. They got their asses kicked physically, that is all.
Case in point: by the time Seattle played the Niners the first time, it was on tape. The Niners showed it once in the red zone, Seattle was ready. And Kaep wasn't even the starter yet.
Seattle has a number of players, including Wagner, who faced a lot of RO/pistol look in college. Even when we single our corners in press, we don't single our linebackers at the same time(unlike Capers and the Pack). Seattle knows how to play the RO (see:Newton and his 3 points of offense).
 

Marvin49

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Scottemojo":25gncip8 said:
Marvin49":25gncip8 said:
Scottemojo":25gncip8 said:
No Roland, but they were trotting Kaep out there every game for a few pistol snaps even when he wasn't starting.

Correct.

The Niners also didn't start using the Read Option on a high % of their plays until the playoffs...which why the Packers seemed so dumbfounded by it,

Alex did run it a few times, but he seemed to always get lit up in a big way when he did so.
You are being obtuse. The RO is just one option out of the pistol. And the Niners put plenty of it on tape for the Packers. They didn't run one new look for the Pack. The Packers had a plan, and it sucked. They got their asses kicked physically, that is all.
Case in point: by the time Seattle played the Niners the first time, it was on tape. The Niners showed it once in the red zone, Seattle was ready. And Kaep wasn't even the starter yet.
Seattle has a number of players, including Wagner, who faced a lot of RO/pistol look in college. Even when we single our corners in press, we don't single our linebackers at the same time(unlike Capers and the Pack). Seattle knows how to play the RO (see:Newton and his 3 points of offense).

I never said they hadn't run it before....but they didn't run it nearly as often in the regular season as in the post season.

I know the diff between the Pistol and the Read Option.

As for what I'm talking about specifically, the 49ers ran very few read option plays in the weeks before the playoffs. If you don't believe me about the Pack being surprised, watch the interviews with Packer players after the game...specifically, Clay Matthews.
 

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With our secondary, Seattle is probably the one team in the league who can best afford to stack the box and invite downfield throws. :)
 

RolandDeschain

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sutz":33kot8q7 said:
With our secondary, Seattle is probably the one team in the league who can best afford to stack the box and invite downfield throws. :)
It's not even close, either. The other teams that can afford to do that depend on their pass rush to generate pressure on the QB. On downs where they don't, they are at big risk for giving up a big play.

I firmly believe that whenever we can get a GOOD, solid, consistent pass rush going, we are going to see the Legion of Boom perform at a whole new level.
 
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Happypuppy

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sutz":viq4lhwb said:
With our secondary, Seattle is probably the one team in the league who can best afford to stack the box and invite downfield throws. :)
+1
Agreed. That is how you beat it edge pressure , jam the TE. Safety's or CB blitz gap as needed. Which coincidently is one of the things Winfield is superb at.
 

rideaducati

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Marvin49":10ggazb7 said:
mr.stlouis":10ggazb7 said:
Here's something to think about. with the lack of receiving threats, you will see more men "in the box." This makes a team's rushing attack less affective. I've seen it in STL for years. It SUX!!! :evil:

Actually...that's PRECISELY what the 49ers want. :)

The more men you put at the LOS the less are out there defending the pass. The play action pass is the bread and butter to the 49ers (and Seahawks for that matter) passing game. Ever notice how in the playoffs Vernon Davis was usually open by about 10 yards? PLay action vs a stacked box.

So....PLEASE...stack the box. I dare you. :)

They did last time and the result was a 42-13 BEATDOWN!!!
 
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