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 Post subject: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:40 pm 
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So...I spent the last couple of days of finding all the athletic measures plus arm length and hand size (so tedious and unfulfilling for most part) of each player on the Seahawks Defense in 2013 and charting that information via excel.

It gave me a great chance to compare and contrast the players competing on the backend as well as just seeing what players stood out the most. What was astonishing was seeing the difference of athletic ability between Clemons and Irvin in their entry year. So I promptly for the first time ever looked at Chris Clemons career stats:

In retrospect:

1) Many admire Clemons for being athletic and compact, let’s look at his combine measures:
6-3, 236 pounds, 4.68 (40), 2.75 (20), 1. 72 (10), 7.48 3-Cone, 35 Vert, 9’08” Broad, 18 x225

2) Compared to Bruce Irvin’s results:
6-3, 245 pounds, 4.41 (40), 2.57 (20), 1.55 (10), 6.70 3-Cone, 33.5 Vert, 10’03” Broad, 23 x 225, (4.03 Shuttle)

In every athletic aspect except for the Vertical Jump, Bruce Irvin blew Chris Clemon’s out of the water, and did so weighting 9 pounds heavier.

Chris Clemons gained 18 pounds sometime during his first 6 years in the NFL to weigh in at 254 when he came to Seattle.

Bruce Irvin in 1 season (with help or not) has already gained 10-15 pounds to weigh in between 255-260 heading into his 2nd year.

3) It took Chris Clemons until his 4th year to registers 8 sacks in a season, he had 20 tackles, 8 sacks that season. In his first 6 years in the league before coming to Seattle he had only registered: 50 tackles and 20 sacks overall. Since Clemons wasn't active in his rookie year, I'll take it into account. In 5 years of activity, Clemons averaged 10 tackles and 4 sacks per season before coming to the Seahawks.

4) It took Bruce Irvin, his rookie season to register 9 sacks (1 in the post-season), imo, he has a decent chance to surpass 20 accumulative sacks even though he’ll only play in 12 games (health permitting). Irvin’s rookie season: 16 tackles, 8 sacks.

Chris Clemons wasn’t a success right away, it really wasn’t until he came to Seattle where he consistently got going but he already had 6 years accrued in the NFL and the Seahawks were his 4th team. He was a journeyman sack artist. Not necessarily the elite player we believe he is today.

In one season, Bruce Irvin has already matched Clemons’ best season pre-Seattle in which it took Clemons 4 years to accomplish.

So I don’t buy the negativity surrounding Irvin’s development. He’s already a better player athletically in almost every way, and statistically Irvin’s first season compares almost equally to Clemon’s best season in his first 6 years.

So in year 4 of Irvin’s development, I don’t doubt what so ever that he can become a quality LEO prospect.
After 6 years, I don’t doubt that Irvin can become a complete player on top of being a consistently elite pass-rusher.

Also, Cliff Avril, imo, is a great buy as he might be an even better LEO prospect than Clemons, today and not potentially.

CA: 6-027, 253 (260 now), 4.51 (40), 2.58 (20), 1.50 (10), 6.9 3-Cone, 9’09” Broad, 36.5 Vert, 27 x 225! (4.31 Shuttle)

CC: 6-3, 236 (254 now), 4.68 (40), 2.75 (20), 1. 72 (10), 7.48 3-Cone, 35 Vert, 9’08” Broad, 18 x225

BI: 6-3, 245 (255-60), 4.41 (40), 2.57 (20), 1.55 (10), 6.70 3-Cone, 33.5 Vert, 10’03” Broad, 23 x 225, (4.03 Shuttle)

It wouldn’t surprise me at all that once Clemons gets healthy: That Seahawks will still keep Avril as the Primary LEO, with Clemons platooning with Irvin in the Raheem Brock role, and Irvin getting snaps at SLB in passing situations. A very good situation to have when it comes to it, Seahawks can pretty much mix and match their pass-rushers in a variety of ways with high rate of success… O-lines will be hatin.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:19 am 
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Dude. Lay off the greenery. I'm sure Irvin has a fantastic Sparq rating.

Chris Clemons splitting time in Raheem Brock role? Have you EVER seen a football game before?

Not many are saying Irvin won't or can't develop. Chris Clemons is a f'n stud. Now. One of the top pass rushers in the entire NFL, now. Avril will start over him? Is this a trolling expedition? I am never this rude, but what the F is wrong with you?

Chris Clemons and Vernon Davis. Why don't we just get rid of all of our good players and fill the team with guys that have good Sparq ratings. You gotta be f'n kidding me.

Avril better than Clemons? Did you watch a single down last year? Have you EVER seen Cliff Avril play football? Actually play? One of the two played really, really well, and one of two failed to reach expectations by quite a ways. Why don't we just cut Clemons, one of our very best defensive players, and one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'm sure Sean McGrath could fill in admirably, his Sparq rating was off the charts.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:22 am 
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Looks like somebodies got a case of the Muuuuundays.


That's some nice info you dug up on that comparison. It never occurred to me to compare Bruce and Clem, and the numbers all look like Bruce has LEO in his future. He's not going to be crowned boy king until Clem can no longer contribute at a high level.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:16 am 
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It took you a couple days to compare two guys?


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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:51 am 
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I liked your post PH there is lots of good info, which is surprisingly hard to locate.

Don't agree completely with some of your conclusions regarding positions to played by different guys but do think the Seahawks have a talented and physical freak player in Irvin. I do completely agree with your conclusion he will become a top level DE or pass rush OLB. It takes time to develop those skills in the NFL and the physical requirements of the position are learned requirements added to physical talent and Irvin's physical talent sets him apart from the rest, he looks to have gained the weight and flashed uber skills at times last year, but lacked technique.

Changing directions slightly from the focus of your post I suspect the team is looking for different ways to get them all, Irvin, Avril, Clemons, Bennett, possibly the rookie Hill on the field at the same time. I wonder if this is why Pete has publicly indicated the team is looking at both Irvin and Avril situationally at OLB. I wonder if the team may show us some pure 3-4 looks with a hard core group of pass rushers in pure nickel situations?

I think at long last we may finally get to see a pass rush that is constant but varied b/c of the acquired talent the team has now put together. If nothing else the team has a lot of different parts from which to put some varied schemes together. The talent is here to morph schemes easily. I'm really curious as to how they bring these guys together and most effectively use them.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:31 am 
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I love BrUUUUCE!

He will become one of the top tiered pass rushers in the league by the end of this year.. He has the size 250-255 lbs and the lighting speed that Clem doen't have I mean Clem is a pretty fast DE, but Irvin is on a whole other level when it comes to the jump off the snap.


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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:44 am 
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Tical21 wrote:
Dude. Lay off the greenery. I'm sure Irvin has a fantastic Sparq rating.

Chris Clemons splitting time in Raheem Brock role? Have you EVER seen a football game before?

Not many are saying Irvin won't or can't develop. Chris Clemons is a f'n stud. Now. One of the top pass rushers in the entire NFL, now. Avril will start over him? Is this a trolling expedition? I am never this rude, but what the F is wrong with you?

Chris Clemons and Vernon Davis. Why don't we just get rid of all of our good players and fill the team with guys that have good Sparq ratings. You gotta be f'n kidding me.

Avril better than Clemons? Did you watch a single down last year? Have you EVER seen Cliff Avril play football? Actually play? One of the two played really, really well, and one of two failed to reach expectations by quite a ways. Why don't we just cut Clemons, one of our very best defensive players, and one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'm sure Sean McGrath could fill in admirably, his Sparq rating was off the charts.


OP is clearly a stats guy. Why watch a whole game when you can just read the box scores...?

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:47 am 
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PH, you can't make the comparisons you're making because there's a REASON Clemons was a nobody until Carroll picked him up: Scheme. Carroll new Clemons would be the archetypical LEO pass rusher. He wasn't being used the same way up until then in his career.

Comparing Irvin to pre-Seattle Clemons is like comparing apples to moon rocks.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:58 am 
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Salish you are logically right, but I think the point is Irvin has shown himself to be ahead of Clemons even though Clem's stats are coming in this scheme while Irvin has been used in another role.

I suspect PH's point is that Irvin has similar but better measureables when compared to Clem and has started well as DE while showing he'd likely grow into a Clemons type Leo. Irvin fits Pete's scheme but will need the usual time to grow into the best role seen for his exceptional athletic ability.

Time will tell with irvin.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:17 am 
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CALIHAWK1 wrote:
It took you a couple days to compare two guys?


Pandion Haliaetus wrote:
So...I spent the last couple of days of finding all the athletic measures ... of each player on the Seahawks Defense in 2013...


Jeez Louise, guys. I for one enjoyed the side-by-side comparison of measurables. I would not conclude that it means one player will become better than another, but it does illustrate the physical starting points. As for Bruce, many are waiting to see how he absorbs the coaching and if/when he can adopt the nuances and artistry of pass rushing along with his strength and speed.

For the critics here, it really doesn't hurt you in any way to recognize that someone spent some time on a post. It's okay to just say you disagree and provide a few valid counterpoints. Or we could all just sit around being sarcastic douches and make subjective statements and leave it at that. I guess that works too. (<-- see, sarcastic douchebaggery example right there)

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:19 am 
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Nice work Pandion.

Bruce was in a totally different situation too as he was not a full time starter in his rookie year. Irvin's athleticism is phenomenal though.

As to Chris, I think he's a "good steady performer," not elite but slightly above average, and that is based on his run-stopping ability more so than his pass rushing ability. Clemons is a legitimate 3 down player. And that is why Atlanta won that game, because they ran at Bruce. But "BI" is pissed now and is doing everything he can to make sure that doesn't happen again. He got a taste of playoff success in his rookie year and he wants more!

I was a little surprised at Avril's numbers, I knew he was pretty good but wow! Especially the bench press! Do you happen to have arm length numbers handy?

Our strength this year is going to be the defensive line, and that will make the rest of the defense look good. My reasoning is that the run D will be vastly improved with the addition of Jordan Hill and Mr. Williams. With Bruce bulking up, and Bennett in the fold, that should make a difference in run stopping ability because we won't be so dependent on our one run stopping End, CC.

Keep up the posts man!

Oh, and nobody can base a valid opinion solely on Avril's performance in Detroit, that whole D-Line under performed last year and that is directly attributable to shitty coaching.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Tical21 wrote:
Dude. Lay off the greenery. I'm sure Irvin has a fantastic Sparq rating.

Chris Clemons splitting time in Raheem Brock role? Have you EVER seen a football game before?

Not many are saying Irvin won't or can't develop. Chris Clemons is a f'n stud. Now. One of the top pass rushers in the entire NFL, now. Avril will start over him? Is this a trolling expedition? I am never this rude, but what the F is wrong with you?

Chris Clemons and Vernon Davis. Why don't we just get rid of all of our good players and fill the team with guys that have good Sparq ratings. You gotta be f'n kidding me.

Avril better than Clemons? Did you watch a single down last year? Have you EVER seen Cliff Avril play football? Actually play? One of the two played really, really well, and one of two failed to reach expectations by quite a ways. Why don't we just cut Clemons, one of our very best defensive players, and one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'm sure Sean McGrath could fill in admirably, his Sparq rating was off the charts.


Dude, get the hell off my back.

1. You're clearly missing the most logical argument against Chris Clemons, stud or not, which I clearly have to spell out for you.

Do you absolutely expect Clemons to come back 100% on a 31 year old knee, and back to form right away.

Logically, I don't.

And don't put words in my mouth as if I'm hating on Clemons, because I'm not, he's been a premier pass-rusher in the NFL in his time here. I know this. I just won't give him the greatest of expectations to return to form, and there is nothing wrong with bringing him along slow...so again logically the Raheem Brock role is a perfect fit for him in his situation.

Perhaps, to wipe the tears from your face, I should have said: Avril/Clemons platoon at LEO, Clemons/Irvin platoon Raheem Brock role, Irvin/Avril platoon SLB at times.

2. Cliff Avril is a great fit for the LEO role, I'm not going to hold anything against Avril on a Lions team that underperformed, the guy is an above quality pass-rusher, and has the size, speed, and strength to be quite effective as a LEO in the rush game and in our scheme. Sure there is a learning curve, but as long as he's excels at position, which remains to be seen, I don't think the Seahawks will mess with that success.

You honestly believe the Seahawks shelled out 15 million for Avril to be a role-player.
But thanks Tical for the incredible over-reaction I truly applaud you.

TO OTHERS:

It really isn't about the stats but it is as I use them to support my idea. However, I was just honestly trying to show the growth of each player and that not long ago Chris Clemons was where Bruce Irvin is today but with Clemons probably a little further behind in development in year to year comparison from League entry.

And that Bruce Irvin has a lot of that athleticism and talent that made Clemons so appealing to Pete Carroll in the first place. Pass-rush Ability. 40% of Clemon’s career Tackles prior to coming to Seattle were Sacks.

Its not about who is better than who, I ONLY WANTED TO PORTRAY, that contrary to some belief that Irvin with plenty of hard work can grow, develop, and improve into a good to great all-around LEO prospect. Likely not any time soon but down the road a couple of years from now… I can see it happening.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Pandion Haliaetus wrote:
Tical21 wrote:
Dude. Lay off the greenery. I'm sure Irvin has a fantastic Sparq rating.

Chris Clemons splitting time in Raheem Brock role? Have you EVER seen a football game before?

Not many are saying Irvin won't or can't develop. Chris Clemons is a f'n stud. Now. One of the top pass rushers in the entire NFL, now. Avril will start over him? Is this a trolling expedition? I am never this rude, but what the F is wrong with you?

Chris Clemons and Vernon Davis. Why don't we just get rid of all of our good players and fill the team with guys that have good Sparq ratings. You gotta be f'n kidding me.

Avril better than Clemons? Did you watch a single down last year? Have you EVER seen Cliff Avril play football? Actually play? One of the two played really, really well, and one of two failed to reach expectations by quite a ways. Why don't we just cut Clemons, one of our very best defensive players, and one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'm sure Sean McGrath could fill in admirably, his Sparq rating was off the charts.


Dude, get the hell off my back.

1. You're clearly missing the most logical argument against Chris Clemons, stud or not, which I clearly have to spell out for you.

Do you absolutely expect Clemons to come back 100% on a 31 year old knee, and back to form right away.

Logically, I don't.

And don't put words in my mouth as if I'm hating on Clemons, because I'm not, he's been a premier pass-rusher in the NFL in his time here. I know this. I just won't give him the greatest of expectations to return to form, and there is nothing wrong with bringing him along slow...so again logically the Raheem Brock role is a perfect fit for him in his situation.

Perhaps, to wipe the tears from your face, I should have said: Avril/Clemons platoon at LEO, Clemons/Irvin platoon Raheem Brock role, Irvin/Avril platoon SLB at times.

2. Cliff Avril is a great fit for the LEO role, I'm not going to hold anything against Avril on a Lions team that underperformed, the guy is an above quality pass-rusher, and has the size, speed, and strength to be quite effective as a LEO in the rush game and in our scheme. Sure there is a learning curve, but as long as he's excels at position, which remains to be seen, I don't think the Seahawks will mess with that success.

You honestly believe the Seahawks shelled out 15 million for Avril to be a role-player.
But thanks Tical for the incredible over-reaction I truly applaud you.

TO OTHERS:

It really isn't about the stats but it is as I use them to support my idea. However, I was just honestly trying to show the growth of each player and that not long ago Chris Clemons was where Bruce Irvin is today but with Clemons probably a little further behind in development in year to year comparison from League entry.

And that Bruce Irvin has a lot of that athleticism and talent that made Clemons so appealing to Pete Carroll in the first place. Pass-rush Ability. 40% of Clemon’s career Tackles prior to coming to Seattle were Sacks.

Its not about who is better than who, I ONLY WANTED TO PORTRAY, that contrary to some belief that Irvin with plenty of hard work can grow, develop, and improve into a good to great all-around LEO prospect. Likely not any time soon but down the road a couple of years from now… I can see it happening.



It was 13 million over 2 years, 6.5 a season.....yeah role player for sure


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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:40 pm 
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I appreciate the time and effort that went into this PH. I'm glad somebody is putting in the work and I get to reap the reading benefits! :th2thumbs: That being said, I am pleased by the moves the Hawks have made recently to bolster the pass rush. I think if Irvin can learn and get his mind in line with his enormous physical talents, he will be dominant.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Things you can't measure are more important than things you can. And you need to watch football to understand that. Did you really watch Cliff Avril play. I mean really watch, and more than once or twice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have seen Clemons.

I admire the enthusiasm, but you're going about this all wrong. You said you spent days studying the measurables of the Seahawks. It would have been infinitely more prudent using that time to watch film. Measurables don't win, good football players do.

Lets go get Aaron Curry and Bruce Campbell and Jamarcus Russell and we will go to the promised land.

IF Clemons is healthy, he plays much more than either Irvin or Avril, period. And it isn't even close.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:05 pm 
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Tical21 wrote:
Things you can't measure are more important than things you can. And you need to watch football to understand that. Did you really watch Cliff Avril play. I mean really watch, and more than once or twice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have seen Clemons.

I admire the enthusiasm, but you're going about this all wrong. You said you spent days studying the measurables of the Seahawks. It would have been infinitely more prudent using that time to watch film. Measurables don't win, good football players do.

Lets go get Aaron Curry and Bruce Campbell and Jamarcus Russell and we will go to the promised land.

IF Clemons is healthy, he plays much more than either Irvin or Avril, period. And it isn't even close.

I would like to see what Avril does in our scheme before that declaration would be fact. Before Clemons came here he wasn't anything special except Pete knew he would be a perfect fit for the role he wanted in him. Avril seems much the same to me. Remember PC/JS really only go for players that may not be "great" by the accepted standards but can and are dynamic in OUR scheme specifically.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Chris Clemons has a DEVELOPED talent. Bruce has RAW talent. two complete different things. maybe Bruce will develop more, maybe he won't. Only time will tell. Yes, he does have the physical attributes that makes you think he has what it takes, but this game is also about Technique and having the mentality to play the position. That's what he needs to develop. Again, only time will tell

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Tical21 wrote:
Things you can't measure are more important than things you can. And you need to watch football to understand that. Did you really watch Cliff Avril play. I mean really watch, and more than once or twice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have seen Clemons.

I admire the enthusiasm, but you're going about this all wrong. You said you spent days studying the measurables of the Seahawks. It would have been infinitely more prudent using that time to watch film. Measurables don't win, good football players do.

Lets go get Aaron Curry and Bruce Campbell and Jamarcus Russell and we will go to the promised land.

IF Clemons is healthy, he plays much more than either Irvin or Avril, period. And it isn't even close.



Perfect example of why you're wrong: Lofa Tatupu. He was too small and too slow, and we took him too early (yes, sarcasm on the last part). But, Ruskell saw in him great intangibles and instincts and leadership qualities and it worked out. The problem is, Tatupu actually was slightly undersized and too slow for our scheme. When he tried to bulk up, it caused him no end of problems to his legs.

Physical measurables DO matter. It's not the end all be all, but to completely invalidate them isn't all that bright either. Thing about intagibles (work ethic, ability to adjust, maturity, etc. ) is that you really can't gauge them or quantify them other than watching someone go through things. Personally, I think intangibles are extremely important; borderline the most important thing in QBs. When you start getting to other skill positions, physical skill and athleticism can many times trump intangibles. Sure, guy that lack them wash out of the league, but there are also guys like Cromartie from the Jets who is a major dumbass but still is elite.


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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Irvin has the athleticism to be not only a LEO, but a great one. Last season though, he lacked three things which kept him from reaching his potential: size, technique, and most importantly, instincts. Everyone needs to remember that the LEO position was invented as a bit of a LB/DE hybrid position, at USC Pete used players like Clay Mathews in the role. A big reason why Clemons took off as a LEO was because he had played linebacker pretty much his whole life before coming to Seattle- he had over a decade of football experience from high school on up to develop his linebacker instincts. Clemons has always been an average-ish athlete but looks dominant because his technique and instincts are terrific.

Irvin has never played linebacker. He played a tiny bit of safety in high school (and I think briefly in community college), but at WVU he played DE and even played 3-4 DE. The coaches at WVU didn't try to coach him up at all they just wanted to use his extreme athleticism, similar to how Chip Kelly uses some of his players at Oregon. So those instincts never really developed and it really showed last season. That doesn't mean they can't develop (though it needs to be noted- Irvin is already 26 this season). I think part of the reason they are moving Irvin into more of a DE/LB hybrid role is to help him develop those instincts.

Irvin also lacks technique, as again he wasn't coached up basically at all before he came to the NFL, but that's also potentially correctable. Let's see what Dan Quinn can do.

Irvin was undersized last year, but added a lot of muscle this offseason. That's good news.

For all three of Irvin's obstacles, I see the coaching and strength training staff taking measures to help Irvin grow and develop (role switch, weight gain, hiring a great former D-Line coach in Quinn). I'm not down on Irvin at all, but it's simply a fact that Irvin wasn't a LEO last season, and might not be for a while still. Even Avril is kind of a fringe LEO, but he's much more of one than Irvin currently is and you can understand why Seattle threw some pretty decent money in Avril's direction to come here.


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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:47 pm 
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Good Post! Well written.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:55 pm 
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so much condescension... sheeesh :49ersmall:

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:55 pm 
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I cant understand ANY of the criticism to the OP with the horrific name. Really. Its the offseason, he put some solid effort into adding something of substance.

Oh, yeah, and ITS THE OFFSEASON. For the offseason, its a good post.


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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:08 pm 
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I'm with Tical on this one. I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong. I'm just saying that I agree that measurables mean very little in the NFL. If measurables were that important there wouldn't be any Russel Wilson's, Tom Brady's, Matt Hasselbeck's, Marquise Colston's, Shannon Sharpe's, Jerry Rice's, etc. Most of what makes a good football player is mental, and intangibles. You can have all the physical ability in the world, but if you don't have any instincts or know-how, or just plain skill, then you won't amount to much. I'm not saying that Irvin won't become a great player, in fact I'm expecting him to. But lets not crown him just yet.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:29 pm 
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Hey Pandion Haliaetus, your post and this thread had a lot of potential. I, for one appreciate the work you put in..... However, the self-righteous er....um... fans, got a hold of it and quickly devolved it into another berating, name-calling denigrating mish-mash of stupidity. At least Kearly and a few others chimed in to bring a few moments of sanity, for which I thank them.

So much is expected of Irvin over Clemons because Irvin was a 1st round pick (not his fault, btw), and of course, we all know that 1st round picks have to be stars in this league from day 1 or they are busts. (Insert useless Mariners players comparisons here) Basically, if given time to work on his game, get stronger, develop some additional moves and master the scheme he is now playing in and I think Irvin will be exceptional. I also, as do you, have a high regard for Avril and believe he will do well as a Seahawk.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:48 pm 
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OreIdahawk wrote:
I'm with Tical on this one. I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong. I'm just saying that I agree that measurables mean very little in the NFL. If measurables were that important there wouldn't be any Russel Wilson's, Tom Brady's, Matt Hasselbeck's, Marquise Colston's, Shannon Sharpe's, Jerry Rice's, etc. Most of what makes a good football player is mental, and intangibles. You can have all the physical ability in the world, but if you don't have any instincts or know-how, or just plain skill, then you won't amount to much. I'm not saying that Irvin won't become a great player, in fact I'm expecting him to. But lets not crown him just yet.


Very true. Applies in all sports. Begs the question, why are the people in sports so obsessed with stats? The coaches, the media, the players... bah. If measurables were really the determining factor, Colin Kaepernick would be better than RW. Laughable 8)


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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:18 am 
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OreIdahawk wrote:
I'm with Tical on this one. I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong. I'm just saying that I agree that measurables mean very little in the NFL. If measurables were that important there wouldn't be any Russel Wilson's, Tom Brady's, Matt Hasselbeck's, Marquise Colston's, Shannon Sharpe's, Jerry Rice's, etc. Most of what makes a good football player is mental, and intangibles. You can have all the physical ability in the world, but if you don't have any instincts or know-how, or just plain skill, then you won't amount to much. I'm not saying that Irvin won't become a great player, in fact I'm expecting him to. But lets not crown him just yet.


That's all well and dandy, and its your opinion, but Tical focused on my original post in the wrong way.

His argument was based on the premise that I was trying to argue that Bruce Irvin is a better player than Chris Clemons. Which I never said once.

I used athletic measure and testing as the starting point of comparison because one it’s hard and illogical to compare a 9 year veteran to a rookie.

My point, is that many view Clemons as a very athletic player in regards to our defense. Even Carroll's own personal view on LEO in his scheme is that position is "usually the most athletic player on the team".

I wasn't using the athletic comparison to devalue Clemons in any way, only that, Bruce Irvin is much more elite in the regard. You can coach up a player to broaden skillsets and technique, and with experience plus a great drive of self-improvement usually comes intangibles, instincts, and intelligence. Maybe not right away and especially not all at once but over time a player learns to polish and refine his game or he likely won’t keep his job.
But elite athleticism isn’t grown on trees, you know, it has value. Irvin has a rocky road ahead and plenty of hard work to put in before he becomes as complete of a player Clemons is… (Even though I think we overvalue or overrate Clemons a little bit especially coming off his 2012 season where 7 of is 11.5 sacks came in 2 games (GB, @BUF), meaning he had 4.5 sacks in his other 14 games. But at the end of the day the Seahawks were a much better team with Clemons than without, that part is incredibly true, even though Clemons has missed only 1 game in his Seahawks career due to injury, an injury that will likely impact his future play for imo at least for 8-10 games 2013, hopefully it will be much less, and he comes back to his 100% much faster)

The whole post in general was basically to show that Clemons came a long way before he had any consistent success. Again, in 5 active seasons in 6 years, Clemons had 50 tackles, 20 sacks. On average, 10 tackles, 4 sacks per season before coming to Seattle and thriving in the LEO role.

My argument for Irvin was that even though he is widely viewed as a raw and undeveloped prospect, he has already accomplished in his rookie season what it took Clemons 4 years to do.

Irvin’s 1st season: 16 tackles, 8 sacks
Clemon’s 4th season: 20 tackles, 8 sacks.

Again, I’m not saying Irvin > Clemons, only that both players were more or less pass-rushing projects upon league entry, and that in comparison Irvin is likely ahead in development compared to where Clemons was at as a rookie in 2003. Irvin gaining 400+ snaps or so of experience in his rookie season where Clemons saw none.

Not saying Irvin is better than Clemons, now, only that in 2-3 more years, in which I did state in the OP, that I could see Irvin developing into comparable LEO prospect in regards to Clemons. A complete player in about 4 years of development.

Again, because apparently I have to restate this many times before my point gets across the right way:
I used Clemons as a comparison to Irvin because Clemons when I looked at his career in retrospect, he didn’t have great, premier DE success right away… he was a journeyman seemingly one trick pony before Carroll came along and put Clemons in a great positional fit for his skillset along with Dan Quinn then Todd Wash coaching him up.

Its not my fault that Tical freaked out and solely focused only on one aspect of my argument partly perhaps mostly because of a disagreement in a different thread where I didn’t think Seattle and St. Louis would trade their top three players at TE for one singularity of Vernon Davis.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:04 am 
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Also, to Tical, I won't apologize for having a different view and perspective on things. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Mine is a little bit on the optimistic and sure I like to provide a lot of statistically analysis and comparison.

But Maybe we can just push past the animosity we have built towards each other this past week and just be fans.

Because that is all I am, a passionate Seahawks fan, writing about Seahawks football, wasting time towards what should be a very exciting chapter of Seahawks football.

I don't intend for me to come across as an condescending know-it-all and I'll try to focus more on diminishing that tone in my writing in the future.

If we both are Seahawks fans, lets just be friends, we can debate, but we don't have to come off like we hate each other.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:59 am 
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Good post OP, people need to calm down a bit. The Hawks did a great job this off-season picking up Avril and Bennett, now they're in no hurry to rush Clemons back. The biggest difference between Clemons and Irvin/Avril is run stopping ability, Clem is far better then the other 2. I also think Irvin adding the weight and another year under his belt could be better in that department. I look and Avril like i looked at Clem before he came here, great athlete that has under achieved a bit to this point. Something really excites me about Avril coming to this team, with this staff and the players around him. With Clem coming off a knee injury who knows how he's gonna come back, he could return to form or he might lose a step. Time will tell, i'm high on Avril, Clem and Irvin in any role they're playing in. They'll all play and play a lot, the DE position is one i don't worry about.


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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:24 am 
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Most posters have heard me say many times that whenever I read a post that makes its point with stats I click off it immediately as its normally mostly bullshit.

Stats are great to throw around with friends at a bar or party but using stats to prove points about players are most always wrong because the person using them always slants them in their favor rather than be objective. Can't you just say who won the game and the score. Most of us could care less who caught how many whats for whatevers.

Also I find now a days that the people who relay and force others to read stats are mostly fantay players and that is the next most boring thing to read. Right after Mein Kampf and the Bible according to someone else.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:18 am 
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Please don't put words in my mouth. I never once said anything even close to referencing that you implied Irvin was better than Clemons. Get your facts straight before you call me out.

There is no animosity, I don't take any of this personally, and I would hope you don't either.

Let us be brutally honest. Sound good? You have a man-crush on Irvin, and you think Clemons is overrated, and you wanted to reach for anything you could reach for to support feeling that way. That is all you have to say. You don't have to go around measuring arms and hands and shuttle drills.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:32 am 
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Our front office loves stats and explosion numbers just like the OP, fortunately it isn't all they use to evaluate. So for those banging on PH, it isn't without merit to look at stats.

However, in watching Irvin, I have to assume one of two things: in his first year, the coaching staff wanted him to make an impact with his passing down speed rush so did not overload him with learning the subtleties of the position, or he just lacks instincts period. Irvin seems to me to never have much of a plan b if his initial effort does not pay off.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:09 am 
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pehawk wrote:
I cant understand ANY of the criticism to the OP with the horrific name. Really. Its the offseason, he put some solid effort into adding something of substance.

Oh, yeah, and ITS THE OFFSEASON. For the offseason, its a good post.



whats wrong with dudes name? pretty cool if you ask me.

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 Post subject: Re: For Those Not Believing in Irvin as a LEO
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:22 am 
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The Radish wrote:
Most posters have heard me say many times that whenever I read a post that makes its point with stats I click off it immediately as its normally mostly bullshit.

Stats are great to throw around with friends at a bar or party but using stats to prove points about players are most always wrong because the person using them always slants them in their favor rather than be objective. Can't you just say who won the game and the score. Most of us could care less who caught how many whats for whatevers.

Also I find now a days that the people who relay and force others to read stats are mostly fantay players and that is the next most boring thing to read. Right after Mein Kampf and the Bible according to someone else.

:141847_bnono: (For Kip)


I find the stats/subjective argument strange. Every team uses stats or moreover mathematical models to try to gain an edge competitively. Remember when teams figured out Rick Mirer could only throw right and used it to expose him? How often does a team throw right vs. left, how often do they run or pass in certain situations, best defensive schemes vs in the red zone, it just goes on and on.

Now I'm not saying without "context" stats can be misleading, like a Team averages 30 points a game. Context: Team had the easiest schedule, or other things like that. Math and mathematical models are critical to predicting future results. Though I would agree it takes an experts eye to provide context in analysis.

Just don't see why folks jump all over people for providing stats. If you are going to argue, argue the context, it would serve better towards stimulating discourse.

Not that the thread hasn't done just that, kearly provided an argument towards context against the OP.

Personally I enjoy these discussions with a foundation of facts.


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