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Measuring effect of 12th Man

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Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:21 pm
  • It seems like visiting teams have been adapting to our loud noise with their snap counts, so the number of false starts (since 2005) have been on a decline. It almost isn't worth keeping track of anymore.

    Is there anything else we could tally? I think there was a significant amount of "delay of game's" in the past year.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:29 pm
  • Tally W's baby.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:30 pm
  • Football Outsiders proved we're the only team in the league with a real home field advantage.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-r ... oa-ratings

    Football Outsiders wrote:What makes Seattle's big home-field advantage special is that it actually seems to exist.


    Read the article. Great ammo for us Seahawks fans.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:32 pm
  • The 12th man has no effect on games. It's cute and just makes Seattle fans feel special.

    Just ask JSeahawks.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:27 pm
  • Tech Worlds wrote:The 12th man has no effect on games. It's cute and just makes Seattle fans feel special.

    Just ask JSeahawks.


    I never said we have no effect. I just don't think its as great as some of us think. And I don't think we're the only fan base that's great for their team. There are plenty of fan bases just as fanatical and into the games as us.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:32 pm
  • 8-0 at home last season. That's the only stat that matters.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:55 pm
  • JSeahawks wrote:
    Tech Worlds wrote:The 12th man has no effect on games. It's cute and just makes Seattle fans feel special.

    Just ask JSeahawks.


    I never said we have no effect. I just don't think its as great as some of us think. And I don't think we're the only fan base that's great for their team. There are plenty of fan bases just as fanatical and into the games as us.


    Ah, Grasshopper fanatical yes effective no. The evidence would be the 49'er game in Dec.

    Sir, I rest my case.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:02 pm
  • v1rotv2 wrote:
    JSeahawks wrote:
    Tech Worlds wrote:The 12th man has no effect on games. It's cute and just makes Seattle fans feel special.

    Just ask JSeahawks.


    I never said we have no effect. I just don't think its as great as some of us think. And I don't think we're the only fan base that's great for their team. There are plenty of fan bases just as fanatical and into the games as us.


    Ah, Grasshopper fanatical yes effective no. The evidence would be the 49'er game in Dec.

    Sir, I rest my case.


    What about the 49ers game in September? Did we lose because of their crowd? Or did we lose because the 49ers were the better team that night.

    On that night in December the Seahawks would have kicked the 49ers ass in an empty stadium.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:04 pm
  • See! He's a 12th man hater!

    You sir are exposed!
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:23 pm
  • J, stop posting in this thread until you've read the Football Outsiders article entirely and have come to the realization that we are, in fact, a step above at CenturyLink in support of our Seahawks. I know it's probably a bitter pill to swallow because you want to think you're just as good at Oregon games and such, but the evidence just isn't there. :)
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:45 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:J, stop posting in this thread until you've read the Football Outsiders article entirely and have come to the realization that we are, in fact, a step above at CenturyLink in support of our Seahawks. I know it's probably a bitter pill to swallow because you want to think you're just as good at Oregon games and such, but the evidence just isn't there. :)


    I've only been to one Ducks game and they got their asses kicked by Boise State.

    I skimmed the article, didn't read every word but from what I saw That article says absolutely nothing about the 12th man and their impact. Its just difference between home and away. Maybe we're such a great home team because teams have to travel so far to play us. (kind of how we always bitch about how we have to travel so far and play 10 am games to play other teams).

    12th man is great. They're loud as hell and I appreciate them. But their importance is tiny in comparison to the players and coaches. The impact certainly didn't seem to be as big when Tarvaris Jackson or Charlie Whitehurst or Sten Gelbaugh or Dan McGwire was our QB.

    Some people act like the 12th man is more important then the players on the field and that's what bugs me and what I argue against. We have a great crowd. No doubt about it.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:37 pm
  • Again, go actually READ the article. Over several years, virtually every team in the NFL ends up averaging 8.5% of an advantage at home, and losing 8.5% away. West coast teams are slightly higher, but Seattle's a big anomaly with a much higher calculated-by-math home field advantage.

    There's only one possible reason. We're the same distance to the vast majority of east coast teams in the NFL as S.F. is, so there can only be one thing remaining that can account for it.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:40 pm
  • J, you are crazy if you don't think stadium environment doesn't impact a game. You watch that SF game, Kaepernick was definitely effected by the stadium environment. He couldn't hear, he was visibly frustrated trying to audible, and it wasn't until the intensity of the crowd waned a bit in the final minutes before he finally completed a TD drive. The Seahawks still slaughter the 49ers, but I'd go so far as to say the noise probably made a 10-14 point difference in that game specifically.

    On a side note to another comment in here: the article (the one from FO) says that homefield advantage does exist for every team. The quote:

    What makes Seattle's big home-field advantage special is that it actually seems to exist. Well, that's not quite right -- home-field advantage pretty much exists for every team.


    I think what got people mixed up is that the article basically says that every NFL team enjoys the same degree of home field advantage except the Seahawks, who enjoy a significantly bigger boost at home than every other NFL team.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:52 pm
  • Kearly, I think J must be claiming that there's something in the air here that hurts visiting teams. Yeah, that must be it! Couldn't possibly be the crowd that is louder than anyone else.

    ;)
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:47 pm
  • I don't think there's anyone on here that actually thinks the 12th Man is more important than the players on the field. Debate all you want if we do or do not have have an effect on visiting teams. But its undeniable that we have an effect on OUR players at home. Nearly every player has said so at one time or another,they feed off of the energy at home. With the talent we have on this team playing up to their potential for whatever reason, it translates to wins, and that all that really matters.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:52 pm
  • Anybody that thinks the 12th man is more important than the players on the field is a moron. All we're saying is the crowd in Seattle gives an extra bump that no other NFL crowd gives. Even Larry Fitzgerald envies the Seahawks fans.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:43 am
  • I feel like 12's have been making as much noise (literally and figuratively) as possible all these years, just waiting for the intensity of the team to match it. We now have that team. I hope I'm not out of line with that, because I know we've had intense players and position groups at various times. But the overall team vibe at this point seems to match the 12's vibe better than ever and it makes sense that they feed off our energy on game day. How could they not, right?! We fans just let loose the insanity and they channel and focus it into smart, tough, dominating football. Woohoo!
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:09 am
  • Affect. You are welcome.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:10 am
  • JSeahawks wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:J, stop posting in this thread until you've read the Football Outsiders article entirely and have come to the realization that we are, in fact, a step above at CenturyLink in support of our Seahawks. I know it's probably a bitter pill to swallow because you want to think you're just as good at Oregon games and such, but the evidence just isn't there. :)


    I've only been to one Ducks game and they got their asses kicked by Boise State.

    I skimmed the article, didn't read every word but from what I saw That article says absolutely nothing about the 12th man and their impact. Its just difference between home and away. Maybe we're such a great home team because teams have to travel so far to play us. (kind of how we always bitch about how we have to travel so far and play 10 am games to play other teams).

    12th man is great. They're loud as hell and I appreciate them. But their importance is tiny in comparison to the players and coaches. The impact certainly didn't seem to be as big when Tarvaris Jackson or Charlie Whitehurst or Sten Gelbaugh or Dan McGwire was our QB.

    Some people act like the 12th man is more important then the players on the field and that's what bugs me and what I argue against. We have a great crowd. No doubt about it.


    If you want to argue the effect of the 12th man when compared to an opposing team's player's skill or coaching you have a solid argument.
    But to dismiss the 12th man as simply motivated fans is flat out incorrect. Our stadium is louder than other stadiums period. The specific design of the building focuses the sound onto the field. It does make it difficult on opponents and it does have an impact.

    If it didn't, why would other teams bother complaining about the noise or accusing us of piping in sound? It's simple. The noise gave us what they consider an unfair advantage.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:12 am
  • HawksFTW wrote:Affect. You are welcome.


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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:17 am
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    HawksFTW wrote:Affect. You are welcome.


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    Oh boy... You really want to go down this route?

    Our crowd has an affect on the game, the effect is we win more games.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:45 am
  • HawksFTW wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    HawksFTW wrote:Affect. You are welcome.


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    Oh boy... You really want to go down this route?

    Our crowd has an affect on the game, the effect is we win more games.


    Also wrong.

    Our crowd affects the game.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:53 am
  • Basis4day wrote:
    HawksFTW wrote:Oh boy... You really want to go down this route?

    Our crowd has an affect on the game, the effect is we win more games.


    Also wrong.

    Our crowd affects the game.


    :roll:

    amazingly, the word can be used as a verb and a noun.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:00 am
  • HawksFTW wrote:
    Basis4day wrote:
    HawksFTW wrote:Oh boy... You really want to go down this route?

    Our crowd has an affect on the game, the effect is we win more games.


    Also wrong.

    Our crowd affects the game.


    :roll:

    amazingly, the word can be used as a verb and a noun.


    Indeed it can, but not in this case. "Affect" as a noun refers to a feeling or emotion. That makes no sense in the context of your example.

    You're using "affect" as a noun to convey influence. That is incorrect. Influence as a noun is "effect". Influence as a verb is "affect".
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:23 am
  • Yes, HawksFTW, I do want to go down this road. The thread title, while lacking "the" a couple of times to make it proper, is using "effect" correctly. "Measuring the effect of the 12th man" would be proper. "Measuring the affect of the 12th man" would not be. You are WRONG. You can say "The 12th man affects games", for instance, but you absolutely with 100% certainty CANNOT "measure the affect" or "measure affect" of anything.

    The thread title is referencing the effect of the 12th man.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:42 am
  • Wasn't referencing the title, iRo. Try harder.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:43 am
  • Wait, why is everyone jumping all over J? I thought it was PE who said that the Steelers fans are louder and provide a better atmosphere in (arm)PITT than we do at home...

    :hmmmm:
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:56 am
  • Trenchbroom wrote:Wait, why is everyone jumping all over J? I thought it was PE who said that the Steelers fans are louder and provide a better atmosphere in (arm)PITT than we do at home...

    :hmmmm:


    Of which he was INCORRECT!
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:09 am
  • Maybe we just suck on the road making it look like the crowd helps at home......

    Maybe adderall isn't compatible with flying and getting up at 10am...........

    just saying :D
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:13 am
  • Basis4day wrote:Indeed it can, but not in this case. "Affect" as a noun refers to a feeling or emotion. That makes no sense in the context of your example.

    You're using "affect" as a noun to convey influence. That is incorrect. Influence as a noun is "effect". Influence as a verb is "affect".


    I have affection for people that knows how to use the word correctly and I appreciate the effective way which you communicated the difference
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:17 am
  • Then it's your failure for not indicating what you were referring to, HawksFTW. It certainly wasn't the post preceding your original statement.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:38 am
  • You guys argue over the dumbest shit.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:46 am
  • AbsolutNET wrote:You guys argue over the dumbest shit.


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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:51 am
  • mikeak wrote:
    Basis4day wrote:Indeed it can, but not in this case. "Affect" as a noun refers to a feeling or emotion. That makes no sense in the context of your example.

    You're using "affect" as a noun to convey influence. That is incorrect. Influence as a noun is "effect". Influence as a verb is "affect".


    I have affection for people that knows how to use the word correctly and I appreciate the effective way which you communicated the difference


    I'm happy to accept your praise and am glad i was able to explain the exceptions. ;)
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:29 pm
  • Back to the original question.

    I agree that visiting teams have typically gone to a silent count to combat the 12th man.

    As a result we see the following

    More delay of game calls
    More timeouts used in dumb situations, just to avoid delay of game calls
    Fewer audibles at the line of scrimmage (often they give up on this entirely)
    More sacks because the O line doesn't have the typical first mover advantage and also because schemes aren't adjusted with audibles

    I believe all of these are true. I think you could easily get stats for these four. I'm sure we get a ton more sacks at home than on the road... and it's probably more dramatic than what most teams see as a differential. I bet we have the fewest audibles per game for visitors of any stadium. I bet that visitors typically use all their timeouts during a game, and often NOT during the last four minutes of each half, as opposed to what is typical. Delay of game is a rare call and I see multiple of them most home games and always on the visiting team...
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:35 pm
  • I understand J's point - that the players and coaches are the most important factor to winning games. I think that's pretty obvious.

    But you can't say the 12th Man doesn't have a big impact on how the Seahawks play. Anyone who was there in 2005 can attest to the HUGE impact the 12th Man can have. I was there for those games in '05. It's hard to explain to anyone who wasn't there, but there was a palpable real "vibe" that was very special, and which definitely impacted the team. Holmgren and Hasselbeck have both stated repeatedly, even after leaving Seattle, that the 12th Man was a big part of that season, that the fans pushed the team and helped them win some very close games.

    Specifically the Cowboy and Giants games. I was at both. Both were very close, and both had the 12th Man in a frenzy. In both games, the crowd intensity was insane, some of the highest-energy games I've ever been to. Specifically the Giants game, in OT, the Seahawks were visibly impacted by the 12th Man. Many players have commented on it, so it's not just fans making things up to feel better about themselves. I think it's overly cynical and kind of sad to try to take that away from us.

    Maybe you didn't get to enjoy that Giants game. Maybe you didn't get to enjoy the 2005 season. If so, I'm sorry for you because it was truly something special that would be hard to put into words. But don't try to steal that from those of us who were there, who got to experience that magic.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:25 pm


  • Might as well post this here. #9? Give me a break.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:33 pm
  • HansGruber wrote:

    Maybe you didn't get to enjoy that Giants game. Maybe you didn't get to enjoy the 2005 season. If so, I'm sorry for you because it was truly something special that would be hard to put into words. But don't try to steal that from those of us who were there, who got to experience that magic.


    I was there for every game starting in 1993 and ending at the Beast Quake game (havnt had season tickets since then) including all those games you mentioned in 05. I'm not trying to steal anything away from you. You're free to have and keep whatever opinion you want. I'm not trying to change your mind, i'm just voicing my opinion. I wasn't even going to post in this thread until techworlds called me out.

    12th man is great. They bring tons of energy to the team. I've never once said otherwise. My only point I've ever tried to make is that A. we're not as important as the team and B. we're not the only fan base that helps their team. I'm not even sure why people have a problem with my opinion as they both seem pretty obvious to me.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:17 pm
  • JSeahawks wrote:
    HansGruber wrote:

    Maybe you didn't get to enjoy that Giants game. Maybe you didn't get to enjoy the 2005 season. If so, I'm sorry for you because it was truly something special that would be hard to put into words. But don't try to steal that from those of us who were there, who got to experience that magic.


    I was there for every game starting in 1993 and ending at the Beast Quake game (havnt had season tickets since then) including all those games you mentioned in 05. I'm not trying to steal anything away from you. You're free to have and keep whatever opinion you want. I'm not trying to change your mind, i'm just voicing my opinion. I wasn't even going to post in this thread until techworlds called me out.

    12th man is great. They bring tons of energy to the team. I've never once said otherwise. My only point I've ever tried to make is that A. we're not as important as the team and B. we're not the only fan base that helps their team. I'm not even sure why people have a problem with my opinion as they both seem pretty obvious to me.


    Yeah, wasn't trying to question your attendance or fanhood or anything. Apologies if it came across like that. I see your points and they're valid, and pretty obvious. Although, I've been to many many different stadiums and I think we truly do have something special in Seattle.

    My two favorite stadiums so far have been Kansas City and Washington. They lived up to the billing. Lots of fun people at the Washington game, had a really good time, they have an amazing tradition there and I saw a couple families where you'd see 4 generations of fans attending the game together (great-grandpa, grandpa, dad and son). I enjoyed their battle song and they have some interesting and unique traditions. Kansas City was really loud and a lot of fun as well, and some great BBQ outside the stadium. Gillette was pretty cool too, the Patriots fans were all far different than I expected - for the most part, they were hospitable and good sports (although we got our butts kicked so I'm sure that's part of it). Minnesota was also pretty cool but their stadium sucks and the fans were really angry and in a bad mood, with lots of them yelling insults at Childress.

    However, most of the other places I've been haven't even compared to the Clink. Not even close. The Giants stadium was bizarrely quiet, like a golf game. One of the fans explained the season tickets were insanely expensive so it's generally just the wealthy country club types that can attend (and that's pretty much what I saw). Philly was way more mellow than I expected. San Francisco last year, they were all watching the Giants baseball game on their phones and not even paying attention to the football game. Not nearly as rowdy as I expected.

    With few exceptions, I think Seattle has a very different environment than anywhere else. Sure other fans yell and get loud at times. But nowhere have I seen the same intensity, the same belief that you can actually impact the game, the same knowledge of the game, etc. Most crowds don't all get up at once without being prompted and go absolutely nuts on 3rd Down. None of them had a flag raising for the fans. None of them had that same belief in the fans, or the same amount of interaction between team and fans. I think the 12th Man is really special to Seattle, and I love that I get to part of it.
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:20 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:Then it's your failure for not indicating what you were referring to, HawksFTW. It certainly wasn't the post preceding your original statement.


    Stop trolling dude.
    cboom wrote:Wilson is the worst QB I have seen as a Hawks fan. And I have been around long enough to see them all.
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    HawksFTW
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Re: Measuring effect of 12th Man
Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:58 am
  • Basis4day wrote:

    Might as well post this here. #9? Give me a break.


    LOL at the 8 second mark, dude in a rice jersey.
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    muxpux
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