who is the CORE...?

CANHawk

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When it comes to sports teams, we always seem to talk about the "core" or the "nucleus" of the team that makes the team be what it be and do what it do. So with our team, who is the "core" of the team that will carry us through the next 6-8 years?

In no particular order, MY core is...

Russell Wilson (d'uh). He's like the core of the core. The nucleus's nucleus. He's like the God particle. He's be be all to end all. He is our savior and will take us to the promised land. Can I get an amen?

Russell Okung - Gotta protect the God particle. LT's this good don't come around very often.
Max Unger - 27 and possibly the best center in the league. I'll take another 6 years of that please.
Golden Tate - He's a difference maker, a TD maker and Russell's favorite target. Love him or hate him, I don't see him going anywhere.
*Percy Harvin - * because he hasn't played a down as a Hawk yet, but I think he's going to be kinda important
Bobby Wagner - heady Mike with excellent range and great fundamentals. He'll be the man in the middle for the next decade.
Earl Thomas - He's the key that makes the entire secondary defense work. 2nd most important piece behind Russell Wilson.
Kam Chancellor - Sets the tone for our physical defense and is the leader of the LOB.
Richard Sherman - Best corner in the game. Nuff said.

If we can keep THIS group together and surround them with a cost effective supporting cast comprised of rookies with something to prove on their way into the league and vets with a little bit left to give on their way out of it, we should be competing for titles for the next 6 - 8 years IMO.

Guys on the fringe of the core:

Sidney Rice - it's an age thing. Like Unger he'll be 27 this year but unlike C's, WR's decline rather quickly north of 30. He's super important to us in the short term, but I don't really expect to see him here 6 years from now.
Bruce Irvin - He hasn't shown it yet. He's young and has all the physical tools (my god does he ever) but hasn't shown he's capable of being on the field for all 3 downs. If he does though...
Zack Miller - again an age thing. He is SO important to what we do now just as a blocker, but the fact he runs great routes and has great hands makes him even more important. I hope we find a way to make the $'s work and keep him around because I don't see his skillset being easily replaced...
Brandon Browner - The man is a BEAST! but I don't nessessarily know if he's in the long term plans. He doesn't have a lot of NFL miles on him, but he's still 27 years old and has played a lot of football in his life. The difference between an elite CB and a regular CB isn't much and I could see him decline down to "average" rather quickly. He'll be expensive to re-up and I'm not sure if there'll be room for him. Given the road he travelled to get here, I'd love to see him get his payday... I just don't think it's going to be here.
KJ Wright - A strong Sam with great length. Helps set the end against the run and is pretty good against the pass too. I had him in "the core" originally, but... I dunno. Something about a SAM just feels pedestrian to me and not worthy of "core" status. Tell me why I'm wrong...

You're not the core:

Antoine Winfield - He's an ageless wonder true, but he's not here in 6 years. Right now, he is like a wonderful seasoning that makes the steak all that much better; but even with out it, you're still eating a steak. We'll still do what we do without him, but we'll just do it so much better with him.
Marshawn Lynch - Lynch is a fricken PHENOM... right now. The way he runs, while incredibly effective, doesn't make for all that much longevity. Given he already has well documented back problems, I don't see him making it that far past 30. We have 2 other backs in house who should be able to shoulder the same load in a balanced offense. THis is the big money year for Lynch and I think this is as long as they realistically expected to keep him here; everything else is gravy. I love Marshawn to death though and would love to be proven wrong though...
Red Bryant - He has a very special skillset and plays a very specific role in our defense, but for some reason I just don't see him being here for the long haul. Red will contribute in the short term, but I can see us getting younger and cheaper at the position in a few years when the big money years of his contract kick in.

Undecided:

Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett - We have to see how they fit into the system first. These are 2 27 year old guys on "show me" contracts, so they have to show me something. Bennett in particular could be a huge difference maker if he can provide that much needed pennetration from the 3-tech spot.
Christine Michael - He's so young, so strong, so fast and so talented. From what I've seen of him, he has Adrian Peterson like tools. If he gets an opportunity to show what he can do, he just might make Marshawn expendable (and I fricken LOVE Marshawn).


So what do y'all think? Is the core actually bigger? Is it smaller? Is it totally different? Let's talk about the core.....
 

kobebryant

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I don't disagree with your breakdown of the players, I would just suggest that the core is considerably smaller than that.

I would say:

Wilson (franchise QB)
Okung (franchise LT)
Unger (Unger:: Wilson as Saturday::p Manning. Very important relationship)
Harvin (elite young playmaker, rare gamechanger)

Wagner (long term upper level MLB)
Sherman (lockdown true #1 CB)
Thomas (special range)
Chancellor (the extension was the team saying he was part of the core, whereas I would have said he was a probowl talent but not as crucial as the other key guys)

Not to knock anyone else, but I really based it upon projected years left and positional value. That said, double digit sacks from Avril, Irvin or Bennett puts them right into the core.

lol, my core didn't actually end up that much smaller.
 

twisted_steel2

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Russell
Okung
Max
Percy
Tate

Irvin
Wagner
Sherm
Kam
Earl

Quick brain storm there.

Edit: Interesting I did my brain storm there without looking at the previous posts because I wanted to see how they matched up. Almost exactly like Can's & Kobe.
 

Subzero717

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Offense- wilson, unger, okung, harvin (he's new but his contract dictates he be on the list.)

Defense- Thomas, Kam, Wagner, Wright, Mebane, Bryant
 

drdiags

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I tend to agree with the picks. I do think Red and Mebane will not see another contract with the Seahawks, same with Rice and Miller (which is going to hurt).

With Clemons most likely gone after this or next year, the DL is really missing on core players. That needs to change and hopefully the two young DTs will help there. I don't see Avril coming back next season. Not sure about Bennett. I hope Irvin can come back from his suspension and shows his impact to establish himself as a core player.

Turbin could become an important cog post-Lynch. I would count MRob as a core player but his role is diminishing in my mind due to the other options and would not be surprised to see him gone after this season if Ware shows he can step into a MRob role on offense. Either way, MRob is a player in transition from core to fringe in my mind.
 
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CANHawk

CANHawk

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vin.couve12":1g9ak1aj said:
One couldn't possibly leave Chancellor out of the core group. Recent priority on resigning him......

Yeah, the fact they just re-upped him for 5 years kind of shows he's part of the long term plan doesn't it?

Doc, the lack of D-linemen on my list of core guys felt like a glaring problem to me as well. Bane is a great 1-tech and will man that spot for the forseeable future, but not long long term (another 3-4 years maybe). I'm sure we'll see those positions addressed in future drafts. Hopefully the Crazy Aussie Jesse Williams will take over the 5-tech slot in a couple years after Red rides off into the sunset and might work his way into being a long term core guy. With Avril, Bennett and Irvin, we have lots of candidates to be long term Leos. It's just a matter of seeing which one rises to the occasion.
 

Tical21

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Wilson
Okung
Sherman
Thomas
Lynch

The truth is, you don't want a core. You want to keep drafting and replacing as many players as possible. That is how you stay good for a long time.

Who was the core of the Colts for their perennial playoff run? The Pats? The Steelers? A couple guys, that is it. Those franchises were known for being able to replace their talent with younger, cheaper talent. It is a cold way to do it, but the best way to build a perennial contender. We want to be married to as few of these guys as possible.
 

MANUNITED23

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Offense: Max Unger, Russel Okung, Wilson, Harvin.

Defense: Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, Richard Sherman, KJ Wright, Bobby Wagner.
 

kearly

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I think I'd include Rice and Miller in the "core" group at least until we have a clear replacement for each of them; which as of this moment, we don't. IMO, Rice and Miller are the two best possession targets on a team built around grinding out long drives. Both are expensive, but both still have many years remaining in their primes (assuming they stay healthy).

If I had a crystal ball and I knew for a fact that Christine Michael would stay healthy over the next five years, I think he'd easily make my core list as well. He has scary upside for our style of running game.

Nice avatar CanHawk... I'm not particularly into TV series or fantasy, but Game of Thrones RULES.
 
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CANHawk

CANHawk

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Tical21":n9hsa7ez said:
Wilson
Okung
Sherman
Thomas
Lynch

The truth is, you don't want a core. You want to keep drafting and replacing as many players as possible. That is how you stay good for a long time.

Who was the core of the Colts for their perennial playoff run? The Pats? The Steelers? A couple guys, that is it. Those franchises were known for being able to replace their talent with younger, cheaper talent. It is a cold way to do it, but the best way to build a perennial contender. We want to be married to as few of these guys as possible.

Hmmm... There's a lot to be said for that. Build your system and draft for that system. As long as you have the QB, the LT and a few stars on the D, everything else should be interchangeable provided you have a top knotch personnel dept. to keep the talent cycling through.
 
A

Anonymous

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Seems that there is some difference of opinion regarding the size of the core.

I say that if you look at all the other teams, you'll probably arrive at about five key players on each that drive the production. That's a total of five on both sides of the ball. When one or two of these five go down, the whole team suffers. When you start looking at the teams considered elite, I think you arrive at a number closer to eight or nine players that contribute exceptional service. When you take away two or three of these guys, the team then becomes "beatable".

Using this criteria, I think my list mirror's what Twisted submitted.
 

drdiags

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For the Colts, it was Manning, Wayne, Harrison, Edge/Adai and Clark, with Freeney/Mathis. Sanders was continually hurt, though he helped solidify the run D on their Superbowl run, or maybe I am forgetting?

For the Patriots, it was Brady, McGinest, Wilfork, Bruschi and lesser degree Brown, Branch, Milloy, Harrison etc.

The Steelers had Ben, Troy, Bettis, Harrison, Ward, several LBs I forget, couple of DBs.

You may not need a 20-man core but you also cannot expect to have 2-3 core players and a bunch of revolving players.
 

pehawk

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This is a great gawd damn thread. Regardless of author, it's a good one. That's very painful to admit because a Canadian touched me when I was a child...and it was either Bryan Adams or CANHAWK.

I think now that the Hawks nabbed a generational, franchise-altering QB the core has shrunk. It's REALLY only Wilson and Earl. The QB's offensively and defensively are all that matters. Defensively the "QB" can be either safety spot or sometimes LB. Manning and Sanders, Flacco and Reed, Brady and Harrison, etc.
 
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CANHawk

CANHawk

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kearly":2pciwofb said:
Nice avatar CanHawk... I'm not particularly into TV series or fantasy, but Game of Thrones RULES.

HODOR HODOR HODOR!! I think when it's all said and done, HODOR will rule the 7 kingdoms.

Sweet Baby Pehawk":2pciwofb said:
This is a great gawd damn thread. Regardless of author, it's a good one. That's very painful to admit because a Canadian touched me when I was a child...and it was either Bryan Adams or CANHAWK.

Don't feel bad Pe, Bryan touches everyone like that. It's how he lets you know he cares...
 

Tical21

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drdiags":2bjmm9i0 said:
For the Colts, it was Manning, Wayne, Harrison, Edge/Adai and Clark, with Freeney/Mathis. Sanders was continually hurt, though he helped solidify the run D on their Superbowl run, or maybe I am forgetting?

For the Patriots, it was Brady, McGinest, Wilfork, Bruschi and lesser degree Brown, Branch, Milloy, Harrison etc.

The Steelers had Ben, Troy, Bettis, Harrison, Ward, several LBs I forget, couple of DBs.

You may not need a 20-man core but you also cannot expect to have 2-3 core players and a bunch of revolving players.
The Colts did plenty without Edge/Addai, Clark and Mathis being contributors, and would have done just fine with other folks in their places.

You listed 4 Pats, the rest were revolving doors.

You listed 4 Steelers, and the rest were revolving doors.

What I'm trying to say is that those teams didn't pay their 7-10 best players to big money to keep them around. For little money, sure, keep Bruschi and Dallas Clark and KJ Wright around, but being good enough at drafting to secure the next KJ Wright is better for your franchise than overpaying for him.
 

Subzero717

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Tical21":2he13rec said:
drdiags":2he13rec said:
For the Colts, it was Manning, Wayne, Harrison, Edge/Adai and Clark, with Freeney/Mathis. Sanders was continually hurt, though he helped solidify the run D on their Superbowl run, or maybe I am forgetting?

For the Patriots, it was Brady, McGinest, Wilfork, Bruschi and lesser degree Brown, Branch, Milloy, Harrison etc.

The Steelers had Ben, Troy, Bettis, Harrison, Ward, several LBs I forget, couple of DBs.

You may not need a 20-man core but you also cannot expect to have 2-3 core players and a bunch of revolving players.
The Colts did plenty without Edge/Addai, Clark and Mathis being contributors, and would have done just fine with other folks in their places.

You listed 4 Pats, the rest were revolving doors.

You listed 4 Steelers, and the rest were revolving doors.

What I'm trying to say is that those teams didn't pay their 7-10 best players to big money to keep them around. For little money, sure, keep Bruschi and Dallas Clark and KJ Wright around, but being good enough at drafting to secure the next KJ Wright is better for your franchise than overpaying for him.


And the "revolving doors" you mentioned how many trophies did those teams hoist?
 
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CANHawk

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CALIHAWK1":2ijogu7b said:
Tical21":2ijogu7b said:
drdiags":2ijogu7b said:
For the Colts, it was Manning, Wayne, Harrison, Edge/Adai and Clark, with Freeney/Mathis. Sanders was continually hurt, though he helped solidify the run D on their Superbowl run, or maybe I am forgetting?

For the Patriots, it was Brady, McGinest, Wilfork, Bruschi and lesser degree Brown, Branch, Milloy, Harrison etc.

The Steelers had Ben, Troy, Bettis, Harrison, Ward, several LBs I forget, couple of DBs.

You may not need a 20-man core but you also cannot expect to have 2-3 core players and a bunch of revolving players.
The Colts did plenty without Edge/Addai, Clark and Mathis being contributors, and would have done just fine with other folks in their places.

You listed 4 Pats, the rest were revolving doors.

You listed 4 Steelers, and the rest were revolving doors.

What I'm trying to say is that those teams didn't pay their 7-10 best players to big money to keep them around. For little money, sure, keep Bruschi and Dallas Clark and KJ Wright around, but being good enough at drafting to secure the next KJ Wright is better for your franchise than overpaying for him.


And the "revolving doors" you mentioned how many trophies did those teams hoist?

Well the Pats have 5 conference championships, 3 superbowls and 10 division titles since 2001. That seems to be pretty good.

The Steelers <spit> have 3 conference Championships, 2 Super Bowls (should only be be 1) and 8 division titles over the same span. That also seems to be somewhat successful.

Not quite sure what your point was there Cal...

I'm kind of re-thinking my list a little. The guys I listed could still be considered "the core", but the absolutely essential retain at all costs guys - for me - would be:

Russell Wilson
Russell Okung
Max Unger
Earl Thomas
Richard Sherman

The QB makes the whole thing go and we have a great one in Russell. Russell Okung is proving to be one of the best young LT's around and considering that so much of our success will come on the shoulders of our QB, it makes sense to protect him with the best bodyguard possible. Hats off to Marshawn, but the O-line makes the running game go and Max has proven to be the glue that holds that line together. By all reports, he's outstanding at making the line calls to make our zone blocking scheme work. As long as we have a capable back to hand the ball off to and some willing garbage men to fill out the line, we'll still have a top 10 running game. Pete's defense is built around having an elite secondary and Thomas and Sherman are two elite defensive backs. As long as we have those two guys doing what they do, the other pieces should be able to be filled by our FO.

I really want to put Bobby Wagner in that group too, but I think our FO is capable of finding a suitable replacement for him should he become too expensive. We managed to put up a top 10 defense with the Heater in the middle (remember that guy?) so I think we could manage without Bobby. The one thing missing from the "essential" core for me is a D-lineman; I'd love to have that pennetrating 3-tech or a long term answer at Leo to round that group out.

I think as long as we can keep those 5 guys together, we'll at least be competitive for a very long time...
 

Attyla the Hawk

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I'd go:

Offense:

Okung
Unger
Wilson

Defense:

Thomas
Sherman

That's not to say, I don't think it's worth extending others -- or that we won't extend others. Certainly guys like Rice and Miller could resign. I'm pretty sure neither of them will command a contract the likes of which they are under now. Chancellor, while he did resign -- he did so in a pretty cap friendly way. When we say core guys, I'm thinking guys we need to pay open market value for. Those 5 guys are the only ones I would say we should match the highest at their position if it comes to that.
 

Subzero717

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CANHawk":3gyd3zst said:
CALIHAWK1":3gyd3zst said:
Tical21":3gyd3zst said:
drdiags said:
For the Colts, it was Manning, Wayne, Harrison, Edge/Adai and Clark, with Freeney/Mathis. Sanders was continually hurt, though he helped solidify the run D on their Superbowl run, or maybe I am forgetting?

For the Patriots, it was Brady, McGinest, Wilfork, Bruschi and lesser degree Brown, Branch, Milloy, Harrison etc.

The Steelers had Ben, Troy, Bettis, Harrison, Ward, several LBs I forget, couple of DBs.

You may not need a 20-man core but you also cannot expect to have 2-3 core players and a bunch of revolving players.
The Colts did plenty without Edge/Addai, Clark and Mathis being contributors, and would have done just fine with other folks in their places.

You listed 4 Pats, the rest were revolving doors.

You listed 4 Steelers, and the rest were revolving doors.

What I'm trying to say is that those teams didn't pay their 7-10 best players to big money to keep them around. For little money, sure, keep Bruschi and Dallas Clark and KJ Wright around, but being good enough at drafting to secure the next KJ Wright is better for your franchise than overpaying for him.


And the "revolving doors" you mentioned how many trophies did those teams hoist?

Well the Pats have 5 conference championships, 3 superbowls and 10 division titles since 2001. That seems to be pretty good.

The Steelers <spit> have 3 conference Championships, 2 Super Bowls (should only be be 1) and 8 division titles over the same span. That also seems to be somewhat successful.

Not quite sure what your point was there Cal...

I'm kind of re-thinking my list a little. The guys I listed could still be considered "the core", but the absolutely essential retain at all costs guys - for me - would be:

Russell Wilson
Russell Okung
Max Unger
Earl Thomas
Richard Sherman

The QB makes the whole thing go and we have a great one in Russell. Russell Okung is proving to be one of the best young LT's around and considering that so much of our success will come on the shoulders of our QB, it makes sense to protect him with the best bodyguard possible. Hats off to Marshawn, but the O-line makes the running game go and Max has proven to be the glue that holds that line together. By all reports, he's outstanding at making the line calls to make our zone blocking scheme work. As long as we have a capable back to hand the ball off to and some willing garbage men to fill out the line, we'll still have a top 10 running game. Pete's defense is built around having an elite secondary and Thomas and Sherman are two elite defensive backs. As long as we have those two guys doing what they do, the other pieces should be able to be filled by our FO.

I really want to put Bobby Wagner in that group too, but I think our FO is capable of finding a suitable replacement for him should he become too expensive. We managed to put up a top 10 defense with the Heater in the middle (remember that guy?) so I think we could manage without Bobby. The one thing missing from the "essential" core for me is a D-lineman; I'd love to have that pennetrating 3-tech or a long term answer at Leo to round that group out.

I think as long as we can keep those 5 guys together, we'll at least be competitive for a very long time...


I get they have been good my point was that since the Pats (the genius that is Belchick) dismanteled the defense thet have become one dimensional and haven't captured the prize. Seymore, Milloy to a degree, Mcginest were a huge part of their success. It also speaks to how good Brady is. While thet can fill a Pro Bowl roster with defensive players they suck.
 
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