Trent Baalke preparing the way for 49er transition

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  • And if you've been paying attention to the 49ers this offseason, you know Baalke cited "philosophical" reasons for the team using a small rotation along its defensive line. Perhaps the comment was innocent. For me, it recalled Fangio's tenure as defensive coordinator for the Indianapolis Colts in the early 2000s. Back then, the Colts were going with younger, less accomplished players on defense. Fangio was known to favor veterans such as the ones San Francisco has used extensively on its defensive line. Bill Polian, then the Colts' president, fired coach Jim Mora when Mora refused to fire Fangio.



    So.... their defense is moving to more of a rotation. Gone already are the classic massive nose tackles for both San Francisco and Arizona. I think we are going see a little more in the way of similarities among defenses in the NFC West.

    So .... brace yourselves Seahawk fans. We are destined to see a rash of 49er posts about how the Seahawks are copying the 49ers defense in the near future. LOL

    Link >>> http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/101182/implications-for-eric-manginis-hiring
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  • When did they hire Mangini? Also who cares what 49er fans say? Especially if it's quit copying our defensive philosophy when the opposite is the truth.
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  • Devils advocate (I thought the name appropiate): Maybe they thought of it first but waited a few years before implementing it.
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  • oregonhawkfan wrote:Devils advocate (I thought the name appropiate): Maybe they thought of it first but waited a few years before implementing it.


    Baalke put that in an envelope two years ago.
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  • KCHawkGirl wrote:When did they hire Mangini? Also who cares what 49er fans say? Especially if it's quit copying our defensive philosophy when the opposite is the truth.

    The Mangina hiring as announced yesterday.
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  • Maybe neither of us thought of it first...
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  • KCHawkGirl wrote:When did they hire Mangini? Also who cares what 49er fans say? Especially if it's quit copying our defensive philosophy when the opposite is the truth.

    Its all there in the link. :229031_shrug: All it takes is one click.

    Speaking of which, I guess my inference about the motivation for hiring Mangini might have been off base.
    Niners hire Mangini as offensive consultant
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  • KCHawkGirl wrote:When did they hire Mangini? Also who cares what 49er fans say? Especially if it's quit copying our defensive philosophy when the opposite is the truth.


    LOL...Everyone copies everyone.

    The Niners and Seahawks tho run different defensive fronts and their defensive strengths are different (Niners front 7 and Seattle the secondary). Thats not to say Seattle doesn't have good player in the frint 7 BTW...just saying their talent is different.

    Now...are the Niners copying the current Seahawks? No. Are the 'hawks copying the current Niners? No.

    Fangio is a disciple of Dom Capers. Their "tree so to speak is rooting in the Saints of the 80's and Steelers of the early 90's. Then the Panthers. Fangio was the LB coach when the Saints had the "Dome Patrol".

    I've just seen so much about who is copying whom and so forth and its all pointless. When something works, everyone looks do do something similar...but neither of these teams are basing their defensive schemes on one another.

    On offense you can see much larger similarities, but in reality BOTH teams are copying Chris Ault at Nevada...who just signed on in KC.
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  • ...and BTW...about the Mangini hiring....

    I think it's about a couple things....

    1) The niners would like another defensive mind who will work with the OFFENSIVE coordinator in figuring out how teams will challenge them this year.
    2) Mangini just wants to get back into coaching and views the 49ers as a way to rehabilitate his career. It also gives him a chance to learn more offensive X's and O's.

    Mangini is no threat to any 49ers coaches.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:...and BTW...about the Mangini hiring....

    I think it's about a couple things....

    1) The niners would like another defensive mind who will work with the OFFENSIVE coordinator in figuring out how teams will challenge them this year.
    2) Mangini just wants to get back into coaching and views the 49ers as a way to rehabilitate his career. It also gives him a chance to learn more offensive X's and O's.

    Mangini is no threat to any 49ers coaches.


    Hey Marv,

    I wouldn't be so sure. Fangio was awesome in year one, great in year two, but towards the end of the year (injuries did play a big part), the defense showed serious holes. I think HarBaalke are looking to keep new ideas and have a good potential for a DC replacement (if needed). I wonder if Tomsula would take a DC job. He's a great Dline coach, but I don't know if his expertise stretches to the secondary.

    I think this hiring is innocuous now, but it could pay dividends down the road. Mangini wants to be a HC again, and a DC is the transition position he'd need. He identified a team with great pieces on defense and a team that has an excellent chance to win the championship (which would improve his resume).

    I believe the book on Fangio is that he has great production early, but is hesitant to play rookies and newer players, which means as his vets age, his scheme degrades.
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  • NinerBuff wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:...and BTW...about the Mangini hiring....

    I think it's about a couple things....

    1) The niners would like another defensive mind who will work with the OFFENSIVE coordinator in figuring out how teams will challenge them this year.
    2) Mangini just wants to get back into coaching and views the 49ers as a way to rehabilitate his career. It also gives him a chance to learn more offensive X's and O's.

    Mangini is no threat to any 49ers coaches.


    Hey Marv,

    I wouldn't be so sure. Fangio was awesome in year one, great in year two, but towards the end of the year (injuries did play a big part), the defense showed serious holes. I think HarBaalke are looking to keep new ideas and have a good potential for a DC replacement (if needed). I wonder if Tomsula would take a DC job. He's a great Dline coach, but I don't know if his expertise stretches to the secondary.

    I think this hiring is innocuous now, but it could pay dividends down the road. Mangini wants to be a HC again, and a DC is the transition position he'd need. He identified a team with great pieces on defense and a team that has an excellent chance to win the championship (which would improve his resume).

    I believe the book on Fangio is that he has great production early, but is hesitant to play rookies and newer players, which means as his vets age, his scheme degrades.


    Fangio isn't going anywhere unless he's hired as a HC.

    He hasn't played young players because they weren't as good as his starters. With the additions of a few new players that will likely change next year. Justin Smith rarely substituted because RJF sucks in a big way and they lost all of their depth at OLB early in the season.
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  • I remember hearing some analyst say the 49ers used the fewest D-line rotations in the NFL last year. Doesn't surprise me at all, but you wear guys out more doing that.
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  • Marvin49 wrote:Fangio isn't going anywhere unless he's hired as a HC.

    He hasn't played young players because they weren't as good as his starters. With the additions of a few new players that will likely change next year. Justin Smith rarely substituted because RJF sucks in a big way and they lost all of their depth at OLB early in the season.


    What part of the word philosophy do you not understand? The Niners are going to play more guys for philisophical reasons, not quality reasons. Your defense wore down as the season went along BECAUSE you didn't play your depth players much. Of course they are worse. Do you want your starters to be fresh later into the season or not? You have to settle for some young player issues if you want your defensive players to stay fresh. Justin Smith got hurt in what, the 15th game? Maybe he doesn't get hurt at all if Ricky Jean gets 10 more snaps a game. Seattle gave substantial snaps to Scruggs and McDonald last year, as well as playing depth at safety and linebacker. They didn't get play time because they are really good, they got play time to save wear and tear, and preserve in game freshness, for the starters.

    Seattle fans had a good coach, Holmgren, who did a poor job of developing his depth for the same reasons as Fangio. He simply could not tolerate young guys learning on the job. Well guess what? The new CBA has such a limit on practices that the game is about the only full speed real snaps your young guys are going to get. Or in the Niners case, did not get last year. But will this year, because they are changing their philosophy.
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  • Scottemojo wrote:
    Marvin49 wrote:Fangio isn't going anywhere unless he's hired as a HC.

    He hasn't played young players because they weren't as good as his starters. With the additions of a few new players that will likely change next year. Justin Smith rarely substituted because RJF sucks in a big way and they lost all of their depth at OLB early in the season.


    What part of the word philosophy do you not understand? The Niners are going to play more guys for philisophical reasons, not quality reasons. Your defense wore down as the season went along BECAUSE you didn't play your depth players much. Of course they are worse. Do you want your starters to be fresh later into the season or not? You have to settle for some young player issues if you want your defensive players to stay fresh. Justin Smith got hurt in what, the 15th game? Maybe he doesn't get hurt at all if Ricky Jean gets 10 more snaps a game. Seattle gave substantial snaps to Scruggs and McDonald last year, as well as playing depth at safety and linebacker. They didn't get play time because they are really good, they got play time to save wear and tear, and preserve in game freshness, for the starters.

    Seattle fans had a good coach, Holmgren, who did a poor job of developing his depth for the same reasons as Fangio. He simply could not tolerate young guys learning on the job. Well guess what? The new CBA has such a limit on practices that the game is about the only full speed real snaps your young guys are going to get. Or in the Niners case, did not get last year. But will this year, because they are changing their philosophy.


    OK...let me restate. Everyones backups are worse than the starters.

    My point was that they were ALOT worse. RJF was useless. Ian Williams sucks. Demarcus Dobbs and Will Tukuafu were both hurt.They lost all of their depth at OLB to injury.

    Remember that first TD in Seattle when Lynch ran right at Justin Smiths spot and there was nobody there? Yeah...that was RJF.

    I'm not expecting them to have 2 Justin Smiths, 2 Aldon Smiths and 2 Ray McDonalds. They do need tho to bridge the enormous gap that there was behind the starters. The good new tho is that Parys Haralson, Demarcus Dobbs, Will Tukuafu, and Corey Fleming will all be back and they drafted Tank Carradine and Quinton Dial.

    Its not like the Niners won't play young guys. Even tho he wasn't a syarter, Aldon Smith played enough as a rookie to get 14 sacks. Navorro Bowman was a backup before Fangio took over. So was Ray McDonald.

    I get your point about saving the wear and tear....but it was simply a HUGE dropoff to the second string guys.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:I remember hearing some analyst say the 49ers used the fewest D-line rotations in the NFL last year. Doesn't surprise me at all, but you wear guys out more doing that.


    Its true and had alot to do with a rash of injuries to backups in the front 7 and other backups who played very poorly (and are no longer on the team).
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  • It is definitely going to be interesting. Pulling your starter in the heat of battle when they are healthy and playing well is always hard to decide when is the right time to sub.

    I know Inner fans want to excuse it away to a massive drop off in talent but that will always be the case. How many games did the Niners have a large lead and still didn't sub out? I think it is more of a style thing than a quality thing. Some coaches struggle with it their entire careers. Can Jimmy change his stripes? That is the question that will be answered this year.

    Does anyone know Jimmy's track record in college for subbing?
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  • RichNhansom wrote:It is definitely going to be interesting. Pulling your starter in the heat of battle when they are healthy and playing well is always hard to decide when is the right time to sub.

    I know Inner fans want to excuse it away to a massive drop off in talent but that will always be the case. How many games did the Niners have a large lead and still didn't sub out? I think it is more of a style thing than a quality thing. Some coaches struggle with it their entire careers. Can Jimmy change his stripes? That is the question that will be answered this year.

    Does anyone know Jimmy's track record in college for subbing?


    I see your point and there may be some validity to it, but in the case of Justin Smith you can see exactly what happened whenever RJF got playing time. BAD stuff happened. There is a reason they made no attempt to resign him.

    It says something tho that the 49ers get Dobbs, Tukuafu, Haralson, and Fleming back, yet STILL drafted Carradine, Lemonier, and Dial. They are looking for depth in the front 7.

    I also don't think it's a Harbaugh thing....its Vic Fangio. Harbaugh works with the offense but largely gives Vic control of all things defense.
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  • RichNhansom wrote:It is definitely going to be interesting. Pulling your starter in the heat of battle when they are healthy and playing well is always hard to decide when is the right time to sub.

    I know Inner fans want to excuse it away to a massive drop off in talent but that will always be the case. How many games did the Niners have a large lead and still didn't sub out? I think it is more of a style thing than a quality thing. Some coaches struggle with it their entire careers. Can Jimmy change his stripes? That is the question that will be answered this year.

    Does anyone know Jimmy's track record in college for subbing?


    Jimmy made Andrew Luck wait a year before starting him at Stanford.
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