My "average guy" take on the Seahawks PED issue

The Essential Online Seahawks Fan Forum Community. There simply is NO substitute. RATING: PG-13
  • As I watch the national media spin this PED issue into a frothed frenzy and read articles with fans making comments about the Seadderal Seahawks, I realized that this is just like any other celebrity is treated by our media. For some reason, when our TV watching society smells "blood in the water" there is a finger -pointing rush to judge someone based on a lot of hearsay and assumptions that have never been validated. They have become "assumed facts" because the internet just regurgitates these juicy, sensationalized stories and opinions until everyone believes their own BS. The assumptions have compounded into ridiculousness and unbiased perspective has been lost.

    How about a little real perspective...

    1) like is Pete Carroll really a "cheat"...I hardly think so. I have actually met Pete and it took about 10 seconds for me to think, this guy is awesome. I only wish I had his energy, mastermind for football and positive outlook. The players respect him and love playing for him. He has coached for many years and is among the most successful college coaches and now making a statement in the NFL. If people think he could be so successful at USC like he was without being an excellent team leader and manager, they are delusional. We don't really know what happened with the whole Reggie Bush thing, but you have to give Pete kudos for what he has accomplished. Pete haters need to just go away.

    2) Does Pete have a team that is spiraling out of control with PEDs? Lets see...over 50 players on the roster and we have had 5 PED issues in two years? It is an issue, but I am pretty sure Pete and John have had the right discussions with the team (ultimatums) and pounded their fists on this issue. You see what happened with Josh Portis today...I think they are tired of the players not taking it seriously.

    3) Are Bruce Irvin, Brandon Browner, Richard Sherman, Marshawn and the other players horrible and irresponsible people? No! I can tell you they are not. I have also been lucky enough to meet several of the guys and have spoken with Bruce and Richard and many other players. I can tell you that they are good guys that want to play hard and win for Seattle (and support fans and local charities). These guys are college grads who have worked hard at their sport and become wealthy and are still in their twenties...I can't begin to describe how out of control I would have been if I had that kind of paycheck and fame at that young age.

    4) why did they take the PEDs when they knew it was not allowed? Well I am pretty sure they all feel pressure to perform... if our jobs and paycheck depended on our physical performance, we would probably look hard at any edge we could find too. I can picture one of these young athletes hearing from some other young athlete that it might be ok to risk getting an edge by taking adderal during off-season training to help with playbook studying and making the team. Bad decision... yes criminal and bad person...no

    5) Is Richard Sherman a loud mouth? Well, ok the guy does not back down from an argument (that's for sure) but he backs up what he says and I can't say I have heard him say anything that was not true. Do other team's fans and players hate it? yes. My response...oh well, I think he is a blast to have on our team. I have seen the guy make a point of stopping and spending time with fans and kids at many events. Haters can keep hating, but the guy is a gem.

    Personally, I love this team, I love our coaches, I love the whole behind the scenes staff from John Schneider to Sandy Gregory and the others, I love and appreciate all that Paul Allen has done for this city. All the guys have heart and play damn hard. They have fun and they love and appreciate the 12th man (and we support them like no other fans). Their chip on the shoulder attitudes have given Seattle a team that is fun to watch and potentially can win for years and give us a heck of a ride (along with a satisfied feeling we have rarely had in Seattle sports).

    So what needs to happen from here...
    Pete has already started by his press interviews showing that he is not happy. They need to turn this "opportunity" into a strength and show the character I know they demand of these players. I know Bruce already owned up to it with Twitter, but it would be nice to see Bruce (and maybe Russell standing next to him) do an interview where he just said, "yeah, I made a stupid decision to take a short cut and I really blew it. I really felt the pressure to be great this year and I thought I could get away with something this off-season. But really it just doesn't pay to do this kind of thing. Russell Wilson and coach Carrol got us all together as a team and we talked about the high cost of losing a premier playmaker with this kind of PED use. The players have all made a commitment to each other and we all decided we don't want to win that way. Yeah we've made some mistakes but you will see a team united after this." and then Russell would probably step in and say "Now lets go show the NFL how a real team wins, GO HAWKS!"

    Then these guys need to live up to it and not take the stupid risk using these banned substances and go work their asses off this year all the way to the superb owl.

    As far as other fans using this PED thing as a way to spin up their hatred for our team...oh well. As far as I'm concerned, they probably still won't love us when we beat their teams this year, but they will respect us. I can't predict the games but when we show that we are a tough physical team again this year with our unexpected success of a QB and possibly win into the playoffs, I will bet there will be a lot more Seahawks fans out there. Harvin, Winfield, Avril, Bennett, Williams, Willson (the other Willson) and all the new talent are going to be a real boost. It's going to be a fun year to be a part of the 12th man, try not to take the insults from the media and internet pundits too seriously and get caught up in their BS and let's just enjoy the ride we know is coming.

    hope you don't mind my getting this off my chest.

    (borrowing a line from Russell)...GO HAWKS!
    User avatar
    bobincovington
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 227
    Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 10:37 am


  • Honestly... No one will remember this stuff in september... watch.
    User avatar
    blue 22
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 709
    Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:56 pm


  • blue 22 wrote:Honestly... No one will remember this stuff in september... watch.


    :13:
    User avatar
    kearly
    * Mr Random Thought *
     
    Posts: 11406
    Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:44 am


  • yeah, you are probably right, but I just get fired up listening to all the BS out there when I am so excited about our team and what they are accomplishing. So maybe this was just more of a therapeutic session for me. Just send me the bill for listening to my rant LOL
    User avatar
    bobincovington
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 227
    Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 10:37 am



  • bobincovington wrote:yeah, you are probably right, but I just get fired up listening to all the BS out there when I am so excited about our team and what they are accomplishing. So maybe this was just more of a therapeutic session for me. Just send me the bill for listening to my rant LOL



    I hear ya. Dont focus on what the haters say. Pretty sure pete and john don't.

    Forgot to say good post by the way! :179422:
    User avatar
    blue 22
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 709
    Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:56 pm


  • blue 22 wrote:Honestly... No one will remember this stuff in september... watch.


    Except every other teams fan base...but to heck with 'em.
    @SeahawkGreg

    Image

    "I will be thrilled with 10 wins.... If we win 14 games, I will tattoo my nuts green and blue!" --13thMan
    User avatar
    FlyingGreg
    * Master Chief *
    * Master Chief *
     
    Posts: 7540
    Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:19 am
    Location: CVN-68


  • Talent can get you to the playoffs.
    It takes character to win when you get there.

    SUPER BOWL XLVIII CHAMPIONS
    User avatar
    sutz
    USMC 1970-77
     
    Posts: 10391
    Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:41 am
    Location: Monroe, WA


  • Very well said.

    Bob in Covington is a voice of reason.

    As for the others who they think they know how to run a football team better than Pete Carroll, I have absolutely no use for them and can't stand even being around them. These back-biters, kibbitzers, finger pointers, criticizers, cowards and traitors have been waiting for something, anything as an excuse to bash Pete Carroll and the Seahawks. They should not be considered true Seahawk fans. We need to throw them out and bar them from Century Link Field.

    .
    User avatar
    bobk3333
    NET Practice Squad
     
    Posts: 57
    Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:25 pm


  • Winning cures a lot of things...Young guys on this team...The whole program is to compete.
    These kind of things happen, it's where you sift out the chafe...
    But you can bet if this teams wins a lot of games, and dare I say SB...
    The fans of less fortunate teams will be screaming Cheaters!
    Don't care...
    User avatar
    Wartooth
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1000
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:29 pm


  • Yep winning is all that matters, they can trash talk all they want about us. It doesn't matter and doesn't bother me.
    The LOLs of the many outweigh the shame of the few
    User avatar
    Msfann
    *BRONZE SUPPORTER*
    *BRONZE SUPPORTER*
     
    Posts: 1446
    Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:37 am


  • sutz wrote:It takes character to win when you get there.


    Screw that. That is so unbelievably wrong-headed and counter-productive.

    I absolutely guarantee that Bruce Irvin, Brandon Browner and Richard Sherman have the character to win the Super Bowl. They have much more character and will-to-win than those cowards who are criticizing them. You think they don't? You think we should get rid of them? Why are you even here?

    I am tired of this garbage.

    Why do you think these players took Adderall in the first place? They wanedt to win so badly that they risked their salaries and reputations so that they coukd work harder and more effectively studying film and the playbook -- in order to better themselves so the team could win. It is the same reason many of the best, brightest and most successful students who are winners, who get into the top medical and law schools take it -- in order to better themselves so that they can have more successful careers.

    I am sick and tired of these people kicking the Seahawks at the first sign of anything even remotely negative.

    .
    User avatar
    bobk3333
    NET Practice Squad
     
    Posts: 57
    Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:25 pm


  • Second everything you said. Great post. I have mentioned alot of this already as well. As much as the media sucks at this kinda stuff, I get more mad that posters here in .net that try to make something out of nothing. If your are on these forums and fans of the hawks, you need to at least give them the benefit of the doubt. I think they have earned that from you.
    hawksincebirth wrote:So Russell has leverage but marshawn doesn't ? I thought its next man up. Hey we got t jack and bj Daniels right ??
    User avatar
    Cartire
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3427
    Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:49 am


  • bobk3333 wrote:
    sutz wrote:It takes character to win when you get there.


    Screw that. That is so unbelievably wrong-headed and counter-productive.

    I absolutely guarantee that Bruce Irvin, Brandon Browner and Richard Sherman have the character to win the Super Bowl. They have much more character and will-to-win than those cowards who are criticizing them. You think they don't? You think we should get rid of them? Why are you even here?

    I am tired of this garbage.

    Why do you think these players took Adderall in the first place? They wanedt to win so badly that they risked their salaries and reputations so that they coukd work harder and more effectively studying film and the playbook -- in order to better themselves so the team could win. It is the same reason many of the best, brightest and most successful students who are winners, who get into the top medical and law schools take it -- in order to better themselves so that they can have more successful careers.

    I am sick and tired of these people kicking the Seahawks at the first sign of anything even remotely negative.

    .

    Uh, it says character, not morality. I'm not the one dissing on guys that make mistakes and screaming for their heads. In fact, how they handle these situations will show what kind of character they have.

    Get over yourself.

    :229031_shrug:
    Talent can get you to the playoffs.
    It takes character to win when you get there.

    SUPER BOWL XLVIII CHAMPIONS
    User avatar
    sutz
    USMC 1970-77
     
    Posts: 10391
    Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:41 am
    Location: Monroe, WA


  • Man, I have a friend who was a former NFL player (He was a TE for the Raiders) and a cousin who made it through the first cuts at a Cardinals (yuck) camp a few years back, and both of them say the exact same thing "Everyone in the NFL is on some sort of PED, come sunday morning, you don't want to be the guy not on something, you will get killed"

    I believe it to a point. The NFL is all about getting on edge, any way possible. Fast guys run In the NFL 4.28 40 and slow guys run a 4.5 40, and rhe difference in those 1.2 thousandths of a second could mean MILLIONS.

    This team isn't "spiraling out of control" We have just been getting caught, and probably tested more frequently because of it.
    User avatar
    Smoke
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 601
    Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:34 am
    Location: Olympia, WA


  • bobk3333 wrote:
    sutz wrote:It takes character to win when you get there.


    Screw that. That is so unbelievably wrong-headed and counter-productive.

    I absolutely guarantee that Bruce Irvin, Brandon Browner and Richard Sherman have the character to win the Super Bowl. They have much more character and will-to-win than those cowards who are criticizing them. You think they don't? You think we should get rid of them? Why are you even here?

    I am tired of this garbage.

    Why do you think these players took Adderall in the first place? They wanedt to win so badly that they risked their salaries and reputations so that they coukd work harder and more effectively studying film and the playbook -- in order to better themselves so the team could win. It is the same reason many of the best, brightest and most successful students who are winners, who get into the top medical and law schools take it -- in order to better themselves so that they can have more successful careers.

    I am sick and tired of these people kicking the Seahawks at the first sign of anything even remotely negative.

    .


    Hilarious.
    "Some people here have been groomed to accept mediocrity and lame ducks, I'm on board with the vibrato!" -SouthSoundHawk
    "BFS is kicking ass in here." -kearly (8/9/2013)
    User avatar
    bestfightstory
    * Glitter over Knives *
     
    Posts: 8511
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:13 pm


  • Great Post by O.P. As it now stands, you either hate us or love us.

    A couple of years ago, we were the NFC Worst. So it went from us being a laughingstock to the Seadderall Seahawks.
    One way or another, it would have been something, anything, for opposing teams and their fans to hate us.

    I would rather much be feared (what all this trolling amounts to) than laughed at.

    We all we got, we all we need.
    Image
    User avatar
    NJSeaHawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2251
    Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:42 am
    Location: New Joisey


  • blue 22 wrote:Honestly... No one will remember this stuff in september... watch.

    Correct. Beautiful post OP.
    43-8...it's all about that action boss....
    next man up.
    User avatar
    MizzouHawkGal
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 8039
    Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:46 pm
    Location: Kansas City, MO


  • We have no one to blame but ourselves as viewers/ fans of the media/ entertainment industry.
    Almost all of this is run through advertising dollars which relies on viewer/ listener ratings.
    What attracts more attention than bad news, especially someone else ? Bad news sells much better than good news.
    It feeds to the majorities (our opponents) hopes.
    In non-competitive "news" I guess shows what sick puppies we can be judging by what is often getting the best ratings.
    User avatar
    AVL
    NET Starter
     
    Posts: 354
    Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 4:11 am


  • blue 22 wrote:Honestly... No one will remember this stuff in september... watch.


    What stuff?
    <A>
    <IMG></A>
    User avatar
    McGruff
    * NET Staff Alumni *
    * NET Staff Alumni *
     
    Posts: 1624
    Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:14 am
    Location: Elma, WA


  • Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
    User avatar
    Tical21
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1546
    Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 pm


  • Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.


    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).
    Image

    Super Bowl XLVIII Champions
    User avatar
    volsunghawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 8329
    Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:20 am
    Location: Right outside Richard Sherman's house


  • AVL wrote:We have no one to blame but ourselves as viewers/ fans of the media/ entertainment industry.
    Almost all of this is run through advertising dollars which relies on viewer/ listener ratings.
    What attracts more attention than bad news, especially someone else ? Bad news sells much better than good news.
    It feeds to the majorities (our opponents) hopes.
    In non-competitive "news" I guess shows what sick puppies we can be judging by what is often getting the best ratings.




    Exactly. Misery Sells.
    User avatar
    blue 22
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 709
    Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:56 pm


  • sutz wrote:

    Got the bubbleheaded bleach blonde
    Comes on at five
    She can tell you 'bout the plane crash
    With a gleam in her eye
    It's interesting when people die
    Give us dirty laundry
    From the white sands
    To the canyon lands
    To the redwood stands
    To the barren lands

    ImageImage

    Proud member of the 38 club
    User avatar
    hawksfansinceday1
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 12721
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:38 am
    Location: Vancouver, WA


  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.


    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).


    On top of all that, Tical's math is stupid. There have been a lot more than 53 different Hawks players over the last three years. Ten percent. Lulz.
    SEAHAWKS.NET. We All We Got, We All We Need
    User avatar
    Scottemojo
    *Scott of Smacksville*
    *Scott of Smacksville*
     
    Posts: 11654
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:14 am


  • volsunghawk wrote:To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.


    Unfortunately, it isn't idiotic. Look at the Japanese educational systems. They use similar methods of continuous improvement and a competitive culture to successfully produce academic excellence in their students, but they also have higher instances of student suicide. We might been experiencing similar a trade-off with our methods and culture - although it is of a less extreme and more manageable nature. Nevertheless, even good methods have fall-out and increased PED use might be ours for the time being.
    BirdsCommaAngry
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 666
    Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:25 pm


  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.[/
    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).

    Good point about Shanahan. Players coach isn't the applicable trait. Maybe The more correct trait is to say a coach that emphasizes things higher than discipline, a win at all costs mantra. At any rate, to think Pete's attitude isn't playing any role is quite far fetched. There are coaches that don't tolerate these kinds of things and there are coaches that do. Pete needs to get control.
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
    User avatar
    Tical21
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1546
    Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 pm


  • Scottemojo wrote:
    volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.


    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).


    On top of all that, Tical's math is stupid. There have been a lot more than 53 different Hawks players over the last three years. Ten percent. Lulz.

    Fair enough. Take the math out. It is still 5 guys. How many would indicate a systemic problem?
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
    User avatar
    Tical21
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1546
    Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 pm


  • Tical21 wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:
    volsunghawk wrote:
    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).


    On top of all that, Tical's math is stupid. There have been a lot more than 53 different Hawks players over the last three years. Ten percent. Lulz.

    Fair enough. Take the math out. It is still 5 guys. How many would indicate a systemic problem?

    Shit if I know. I think at least half the NFL is on HGH or something else, so I think the entire NFL is systemic. Wrong guy to ask. I was just laughing at the crap math you used to support your premise. 3 years of results vs 1 year of roster=Tical supporting some supposition.
    SEAHAWKS.NET. We All We Got, We All We Need
    User avatar
    Scottemojo
    *Scott of Smacksville*
    *Scott of Smacksville*
     
    Posts: 11654
    Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:14 am


  • BirdsCommaAngry wrote:
    volsunghawk wrote:To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.


    Unfortunately, it isn't idiotic. Look at the Japanese educational systems. They use similar methods of continuous improvement and a competitive culture to successfully produce academic excellence in their students, but they also have higher instances of student suicide. We might been experiencing similar a trade-off with our methods and culture - although it is of a less extreme and more manageable nature. Nevertheless, even good methods have fall-out and increased PED use might be ours for the time being.


    It's got nothing to do with Carroll and everything to do with the fact that the NFL is a competitive league, and teams can cut players at a moment's notice. Contracts are usually laden with performance-based incentives.

    If these guys want to get paid and KEEP getting paid, they've got to outperform the next guy and win.

    There's the competitive culture. Carroll's not the first guy to peddle that, nor will he be the last.
    Image

    Super Bowl XLVIII Champions
    User avatar
    volsunghawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 8329
    Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:20 am
    Location: Right outside Richard Sherman's house


  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Haha apologist much?

    Lets not blame the coaches or players for cheating and getting suspended. Lets sympathize instead. These guys have really difficult lives and we could never expect them to do their jobs to the best of their abilities without cheating. I love my Seahawks so much. They couldn't possibly have cheated, I just love them way too much for that.

    5 out of 50 is ten percent. Ten percent of our team has been suspended for one drug. What percent would you think this would have to reach before you would classify it as a problem?

    The fact is that these are the exact types of things you worry about with a players coach. It isn't about cheating, it isn't about effort, it is about lack of discipline. Pete needed to curb this last season, and if is unable to, he needs somebody else to do it for him. There are coaches that have these kinds of problems and coaches that don't.


    I don't ever remember anyone calling Mike Shanahan a "players' coach," and the Redskins have had more violations than we have, apparently. To suggest that these suspensions are somehow tied to Carroll's style is idiotic.

    The players tagged by this were careless, and that's often an issue with younger guys. I trust everyone read Smoke's post above... PED use isn't restricted just to the guys that get caught, and it's not going away. Our guys who were caught just weren't careful enough to avoid detection. They'll be more careful in the future (even to the point of not using any sort of PED at all, perhaps).


    Yeah its really just these young guys learning how the testing goes in the NFL. In college it was prob easy for them to use PEDs and get away with it.
    Now they know they have to be more careful about the timing of the tests and they will be more successful with their drug taking like all the other players getting away with it around the league :th2thumbs:
    Image
    User avatar
    dunceface
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3470
    Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:29 am


  • Out of the last 23 players busted, 5 have been Seahawks. But it is purely a coincidence right? It is all about competition league wide? It couldn't have anything to do with the way business is handled within the franchise. It could never have anything to do with Carroll, he's just too good of a guy for that.
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
    User avatar
    Tical21
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1546
    Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 pm


  • Aren't the two leading teams in suspensions also the two youngest teams in the league? If that is correct then isn't there just a little to much coincidence to ignore?
    The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.
    RichNhansom
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3027
    Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:26 am


  • RichNhansom wrote:Aren't the two leading teams in suspensions also the two youngest teams in the league? If that is correct then isn't there just a little to much coincidence to ignore?


    I dont think anyone doubted coincidence. Everyone from the beginning that knows what their talking about knows the youth factor is huge.
    hawksincebirth wrote:So Russell has leverage but marshawn doesn't ? I thought its next man up. Hey we got t jack and bj Daniels right ??
    User avatar
    Cartire
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3427
    Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:49 am


  • Tical21 wrote:Out of the last 23 players busted, 5 have been Seahawks. But it is purely a coincidence right? It is all about competition league wide? It couldn't have anything to do with the way business is handled within the franchise. It could never have anything to do with Carroll, he's just too good of a guy for that.


    Never said anything about whether Carroll was "too good" or not. But if you think that the Seahawks players got caught because of Carroll's competition mantra, then you're desperate for a scapegoat. Do you think the other 31 teams are like, "Competition? Never heard of it"? Do you think that players on the other 31 teams just don't worry about losing their starting jobs or getting cut at all?

    Here's the deal, and it's something that Schneider alluded to when he was talking about this issue. PED use is EVERYWHERE. It's not just in Seattle. Schneider talked about it being common in college from what he's seen. Sherman indicated that it's pretty widespread, too. Smoke posted anecdotes to that effect in this very thread.

    So it's not because Carroll preaches competition or because he's a "players' coach" that Seahawks players are getting caught. It's because those players were young and careless.

    By the way, nice cherry-picking with your "out of the last 23 players busted" crap.

    Why didn't you go back from that 23rd guy (Moffitt) and include the next 2 guys who were busted 2 whole days before Moffitt? Oh, right... because those 2 guys were Fred Davis and Trent Williams from the Redskins, and that would give Washington even MORE players busted than Seattle... and then all of a sudden, the argument is about 2 franchises with coaches who have vastly different styles, and that just blows the hell out of your little crusade, doesn't it?
    Image

    Super Bowl XLVIII Champions
    User avatar
    volsunghawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 8329
    Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:20 am
    Location: Right outside Richard Sherman's house


  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:
    Why didn't you go back from that 23rd guy (Moffitt) and include the next 2 guys who were busted 2 whole days before Moffitt? Oh, right... because those 2 guys were Fred Davis and Trent Williams from the Redskins, and that would give Washington even MORE players busted than Seattle... and then all of a sudden, the argument is about 2 franchises with coaches who have vastly different styles, and that just blows the hell out of your little crusade, doesn't it?


    Ouch, facts hurt. That was almost mean the way you did that.
    The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.
    RichNhansom
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3027
    Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:26 am


  • volsunghawk wrote:It's got nothing to do with Carroll and everything to do with the fact that the NFL is a competitive league, and teams can cut players at a moment's notice. Contracts are usually laden with performance-based incentives.

    If these guys want to get paid and KEEP getting paid, they've got to outperform the next guy and win.

    There's the competitive culture. Carroll's not the first guy to peddle that, nor will he be the last.


    They still get paid unbelievably well even when they aren't out performing their competition or achieving their incentives. If they're on a roster for a season, they're rich, but I digress:

    It's not what PC peddles but the way he peddles it and the culture of our team. An established but unspectacular player on the Dallas Cowboys can make more than players here and do so while performing worse. This is because their coaching staff isn't as capable of successfully inserting newer players into the mix and JJ is much less capable at obtaining talented youngsters to push out the veterans. Sure, we share some elements with the entire league, but we're clearly not playing that part of the game the exact same way. We're better at obtaining, implementing, and succeeding with younger players, which is tumultuous to those who haven't yet established themselves.

    What I'm suggesting is maybe PC's process, the process responsible for much of our success, is like every other human process on the face of this earth and it isn't perfect or black and white or whatever other illusion we're entertaining. Maybe the warts of our system are of a variety that just might increase the likelihood of our guys using PEDs, and yes, it does have something to with PC even if it is tolerable in the grand scheme of what he's done. Why this general concept is hard to understand is something I do not know. Maybe you've mistaken me for a buffoon foolishly looking for a scapegoat instead of someone theorizing about one little facet in the ambiguity of all things human.
    BirdsCommaAngry
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 666
    Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:25 pm


  • volsunghawk wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:Out of the last 23 players busted, 5 have been Seahawks. But it is purely a coincidence right? It is all about competition league wide? It couldn't have anything to do with the way business is handled within the franchise. It could never have anything to do with Carroll, he's just too good of a guy for that.


    Never said anything about whether Carroll was "too good" or not. But if you think that the Seahawks players got caught because of Carroll's competition mantra, then you're desperate for a scapegoat. Do you think the other 31 teams are like, "Competition? Never heard of it"? Do you think that players on the other 31 teams just don't worry about losing their starting jobs or getting cut at all?

    Here's the deal, and it's something that Schneider alluded to when he was talking about this issue. PED use is EVERYWHERE. It's not just in Seattle. Schneider talked about it being common in college from what he's seen. Sherman indicated that it's pretty widespread, too. Smoke posted anecdotes to that effect in this very thread.

    So it's not because Carroll preaches competition or because he's a "players' coach" that Seahawks players are getting caught. It's because those players were young and careless.

    By the way, nice cherry-picking with your "out of the last 23 players busted" crap.

    Why didn't you go back from that 23rd guy (Moffitt) and include the next 2 guys who were busted 2 whole days before Moffitt? Oh, right... because those 2 guys were Fred Davis and Trent Williams from the Redskins, and that would give Washington even MORE players busted than Seattle... and then all of a sudden, the argument is about 2 franchises with coaches who have vastly different styles, and that just blows the hell out of your little crusade, doesn't it?

    Whatever dude. I don't give two poops about the Redskins. Who cares if they have more. So, the Seahawks have 5 of the last 25 players suspended. The Seahawks make up 3% of the NFL, yet are guilty of 20% of the most recent suspensions. Maybe the Redskins are higher. All it means is both the Redskins and Seahawks have pretty major issues.

    I didn't once, not once, say a single thing about Carroll's competitive philosophy having anything at all to do with this. You could listen to any coach, and any player, at almost any level, and you're going to hear that competition is a major theme. That is no excuse. A coach has to preach that. I place zero blame on Carroll for that. I blame Carroll, and Shanahan, for not curbing this a long time ago. Could you see a world where Belichick has so many players suspsended? Tomlin? Coughlin? Heck, Holmgren? Harbaugh? Do you think this crap would fly in any of those locker rooms? Close your eyes. Can you even come close to picturing that?

    Lets quit the song and dance and cut to the chase, shall we? In your opinion, why is it that the Seahawks and Redskins have so many problems with players being caught for PED's, and so many other teams have no problem at all?
    "So between my friends and I we have been at every home game to date this year, and we have all been plotting the offensive plays called. " ------Anthony!
    User avatar
    Tical21
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1546
    Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 pm


  • I do think this whole issue does relate back to the organization as a whole. John and Pete have shown a willingness to give guys who have made questionable decisions in the past a chance to make this team. I for one applaud them for it, but it also means you are going to have at least some of them continue to make questionable decisions. Are we really surprised when some of them screw up? I love that this is a team that gives the players every opportunity to be their best, but they are also given enough rope to hang themselves and some of them are bound to do it. What is going to be more telling is what will happen when we have a repeat offender?

    I like what happened with Josh Portis a lot. He missed curfew in Miami last year and was cut. They gave him a second chance this spring and he blew it. Now he is gone. Will Pete have the same conviction to cut a player who isn't a 3rd string QB? I don't know, but I sure hope so, because these guys HAVE to get the message that by trying to help themselves they are hurting the team and that can't be allowed.
    canfan
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 139
    Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:11 pm


  • I thought Tom Coughlin's NYG had 3 players suspended for PEDs in the same time frame so the soft players coach slant doesn't seem to pass mustard. Something is wrong with the Seahawks message to their players but I don't think it can all be put at the feet of the coach. Maybe the team is taking on more high risk players to allow them to turn around so quickly? They have taken on a few guys like this in Portis, Bowie, #Humblethug, Michaels, Irvin, McCoy and others. They have taken medical risks or injured players in Leon Washington, Walter Thurmond or Williams.

    Maybe they can restrict the risks they had to take now that they have a more talented team? Pete has his share of the blame but if one is going to moan about his style, get comfy in it because until he leaves I doubt he changes. He will leave if the team collapses and Allen shows him the door or he decides to hang it up. Or a mutual parting of ways after his contract is up. And someone has to show me how he is this image of Mr Softy with his players behind closed doors.

    I see him being pumped and jacked but I have seen some cold-blooded moves as well from him and the FO. I doubt anyone is being coddled. But this is just an opinion with no way to prove or disprove.

    FYI: Here is the link to PED suspensions done by Sando where the NYG had 4 suspensions from 2010-2013

    http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/100145/seahawks-lead-in-ped-bans-under-carroll

    2010-13 PED Suspensions

    Seattle Seahawks 5
    Denver Broncos 4
    New York Giants 4
    New England Patriots 3
    Washington Redskins 3
    Cincinnati Bengals 3
    Houston Texans 3
    St. Louis Rams 3
    Atlanta Falcons 2
    Arizona Cardinals 2
    Minnesota Vikings 2
    Tampa Bay Buccaneers 2
    Carolina Panthers 2
    Miami Dolphins 2
    San Diego Chargers 2
    Tennessee Titans 2
    Chicago Bears 1
    Green Bay Packers 1
    New Orleans Saints 1
    Baltimore Ravens 1
    Cleveland Browns 1
    Pittsburgh Steelers 1
    Buffalo Bills 0
    Detroit Lions 0
    Jacksonville Jaguars 0
    Indianapolis Colts 0
    Kansas City Chiefs 0
    New York Jets 0
    Oakland Raiders 0
    Dallas Cowboys 0
    Philadelphia Eagles 0
    San Francisco 49ers 0
    Total 50



    Notice Belicheck's Patriots are near the top with 3 while NYG has 4. Now how is this still just a Shanahan and Carroll not curbing their players issue? This is a league wide issue. Suspensions are suspensions so not going to go through them to determine which had special circumstances. Seahawks have an issue but so do other teams.
    Image
    Leon Washington 2010-2012 Red Bryant 2008-2013 Chris Clemons 2010-2013 Golden Tate 2010-2013
    Brandon Browner 2011-2013 Breno Giacomini 2011-2013 - Gone but not forgotten.
    R.I.P Les "PithyRadish" Norton 9/13/2014
    User avatar
    drdiags
    * The Doc *
    * The Doc *
     
    Posts: 9416
    Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:33 am
    Location: Covington, Washington


  • Darned if we do, darned if we don't. Pete started with a sup-par team, took chances on very young players with a lot of talent, some with a checkered past. With this talent, he basically turned the corner at the end of year 2, and gave us a championship caliber team in year 3. The team is still full of youngsters with the same personal histories; however, between them all, the worst crime we have is PED violations?? How about if Snyder and PC went about business, as Ruskell did, by identifying boy scout-like qualities as their primary focus? Where do you suppose we'd be right now. We'd have thread after thread of 'fire so and so' and cut 'so and so,' that's where. But more importantly, the blame could go squarely on the coach and GM as opposed to the hyperbole happening right now.

    I suppose there will always be a small percentage of people on any message board, whos hobby is to find the next thing to pick at, or the next person to blame. Two (2) young teams, one with a 'player's coach,' as some people like to term it, who has a competition mantra; one coach with more of an old school mentality. They are the two youngest teams in the league AND they have the highest instances of PED violations. To me, the variable is not coaching. From what we've seen so far, PED violations correlate to the average age of the players in an inverse fashion.

    But hey, let's just equate this to Japanese kids who commit suicide because of the school system they are in. Careful when you start throwing out something you've read about. My daughter is in the Japanese school system, so I might know something about it and have to disagree. Anything to bolster the someone's argument though.
    "I cannot believe this............ I am stunned right now. This is now a rebuilding year for us. Our offense is crap now"

    Blitzer88 regarding trading Percy to the Jets
    User avatar
    HawKnPeppa
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2791
    Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:01 pm


  • wow, lots of responses... I always find it funny how many people make assumptions about famous people (actors, politicians, sports figures, coaches, etc) so they can say they "know" they are "guilty" of all kinds of things all based on what they have seen on tv, read on the internet, and the cover of the latest people magazine, without ever knowing them personally. Pete Carroll must be bad because I heard on the news how he cheated at USC and read an article on Bleacher report blah blah...in reality I would venture a guess that the reality is a far cry from the reported sensationalism.

    As far as saying the Hawks have a serious problem because we have had 5 players who tested positive for PEDs when the other teams only had 3 or 4 players who did barely makes a case that Pete has no control over the team, and more than any other coach has no control. 5 out of 50 is 10%, but if it is over two years, then it becomes 5 out of 100, and if you include the sample size tested for each team it may change the statistics even further. and if you are going to count adderal users, then you might as well factor in players on teams that were caught using Steroids, HGH, or whatever advantage they could get away with. If I am a manager, yes I am concerned right now, but this is kind of like the oil light on the dash board indicating we have a problem that needs attention, we certainly don't have a blown engine.

    Any kind of opinion about a coach or players should have supporting facts, but if you don't have real information or first hand experience otherwise, you have to assume they are dealing with it like most other coaches and front offices would. Not saying they are without blame, just that in the grand scheme of things...
    User avatar
    bobincovington
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 227
    Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 10:37 am


  • bobincovington wrote:If I am a manager, yes I am concerned right now, but this is kind of like the oil light on the dash board indicating we have a problem that needs attention, we certainly don't have a blown engine.


    Best Analogy. Spot on.
    User avatar
    Cartire
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3427
    Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:49 am


  • Young team with some higher risk players probably being tested more than any other team due to recent history. Pretty much sums it up for me.

    If we were dealing with shootings, stabbings, DV or other criminal activities I would be much more worried but that this particular group of individuals with some pretty checkered pasts and all we are seeing is some PED violations. I actually think Pete and John are doing a pretty good job keeping these guys as clean as they are. It wasn't long ago when we were reading about Hill beating his lady and (lost the name) the safety getting hit with a street sign on and on and you know what we weren't getting popped for? PEDs.
    The Lion has no interest in the opinion of the sheep.
    RichNhansom
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3027
    Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:26 am




It is currently Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:17 am

Please REGISTER to become a member

Return to [ THE OFFICIAL NET NATION FAN FORUM ]




Information