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 Post subject: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 5:19 am 
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Biggest reach: Bears, Kyle Long. A pure bloodlines pick, he simply has very little experience.

Biggest steal: Niners, Quinton Patton. He makes up for the blown first rounder last year, I think his upside is like Greg Jennings. He blocks, has great hands, and is plenty quick. Forget Lattimore, who I don't think will ever be what he once was, this is the pick I like. Also, give Baalke credit for a great UDFA haul, how he got those guys to sign to that loaded roster IDK. Marquadt? Really? if he makes the team as a swing tackle, they just got a lot deeper.

Most guaranteed bust: One week of sniveling has convinced me Nolan Nawrocki had Geno Smith pegged accurately. Firing your agents because you are embarrassed reeks of lack of accountability. He has a lot of entourage/hangers on who blow smoke up his ass. I think this a disaster pick for the Jets. Idzik, this one is going to haunt you. I know, calling second rounders bust is not nice, but this guy said he was going top 5 just hours before the draft. I think this dude is going to make Cam Newton look like team first guy.

Most over rated draft: Jeff Ireland. He is the new Tim Ruskell. He checks off the boxes on his needs list except one, but between free agency and his draft it all just feels hollow. Letting Jake Long get away, (and make no mistake, the Dolphins did not want Jake, who was Parcells choice, not Ireskells) is going to haunt the Dolphins and Tannehill. Getting rid of Bess? Why? Bess was a QBs best friend kind of slot receiver.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 5:35 am 
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Alright, I'll give it a whirl Bear in mind that my opinions are not based in any real fact or research, or even a minimal knowledge of draft prospects and other team needs. Purely emotional responses.

Biggest Reach: Has to be the Cowboys reaching for that Center, doesn't it? NO-ONE had him anywhere near the first three rounds. Just about everything I read about this pick said the guy had a 4th round grade, and may have fallen even further. I remember when they called Irvin a reach for us last year, but then come to find out several other clubs wanted him in the first, the Jets not the least of these.

Biggest Steal: Arthur Brown, Ravens. Fills a need for them and I think he's going to be a monster in this league.

Most guaranteed bust: I would be inclined to agree on Smith. Barkevious Mingo is another one I think will probably bust. Never really like what I saw from him at LSU, and think he'll struggle against NFL tackles.

Most over-rated Draft: Vikings. Don't know the name of their GM. Don't really care. They seem to be getting 'A' grades across the board from the pundits, and I just don't think they deserve it.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:14 am 
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peachesenregalia wrote:
Most over-rated Draft: Vikings. Don't know the name of their GM. Don't really care. They seem to be getting 'A' grades across the board from the pundits, and I just don't think they deserve it.


No kidding. Trading a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 7th for Cordarelle Patterson? That's kinda psycho.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:13 am 
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Biggest reach: Bills with EJ Manuel. Sorry, but I don't see him as a starting QB last year given his lackluster carreer at FSU. Talented as heck, but talent alone shouldn't get you drafted as the first QB in the draft. I see much more production and potential from Geno Smith. I don't care how pouty he is, he got it done in college in every game, he just didn't have a defense at all to back him up. He'll be better with the Jets D behind him.

Biggest steal: Seahawks, Jesse Williams in the 5th round. I just thought it was crazy that he lasted this long and he has starter-skills from the tape I've seen.

Most guaranteed bust: This could also be the "biggest reach": Ziggy Ansah will not live up to his #5 overall pick. Like I said before, he couldn't make the BYU basketball team for two years as a back-up center on a team with a bunch of white Mormon 2-star recruits. He didn't have any sacks in college and most tackles were on special teams. This guy screams bust to me.

Most over rated draft: I'll go with the Vikings as well. They gave up an awful lot for Cordell Patterson, when they should have waited for a similar player in Round 2. They could have used some O-line help and only drafted two guards late.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:54 am 
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Biggest Reach: Even though I dont believe he'll be a bust, I think Ziggy's the biggest reach. Just a pure need pick. Horrible.

Biggest Steal : Yup, I'm going to back up my mouth and go with Manuel. I've been on his jock for months. He's got Wilson type intangible potential, with an ideal skill set. Desmond Trufant for runner up.

Most Guaranteed Bust: Dion Jordan. I dont get it, but dont get drafting passrushers with no production. Who knows? I felt this strongly on Mario Williams, another combine hero with no production, and he turned out just fine.

Most Overrated Draft : Yup, the Vikes.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 10:39 am 
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aawolf wrote:
Biggest reach: Bills with EJ Manuel. Sorry, but I don't see him as a starting QB last year given his lackluster carreer at FSU. Talented as heck, but talent alone shouldn't get you drafted as the first QB in the draft. I see much more production and potential from Geno Smith. I don't care how pouty he is, he got it done in college in every game, he just didn't have a defense at all to back him up. He'll be better with the Jets D behind him.
.


Did you hear what won the Bills over? Manuel threw the ball exceptionally well in bad weather according to them. Considering the amount of bad weather they play in that made the deal.........

Going to be very interesting I am sure Manuel will follow the footsteps of other great FSU quarterbacks you know like Weinke and Ponder......


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:17 am 
*Scott of Smacksville*
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Best cloak and dagger job of the draft: Bills. First, they loved EJ and it never got out. Geno, Barkley, and Nassib were names they floated like crazy. Then the dagger. They trade spots with STL because the full of leaks front office of the Jets could not keep their lust for Tavon Austin under wraps. That same leaky front office could not hide their love of Bruce Irvin hidden the year before.

Get your guy and screw a division rival? Good stuff, Buddy Nix.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:20 pm 
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I think it's interesting that Seattle drafted Harper with Patton still on the board. Not only do I wonder if that was a sound decision, but they also gave Patton a small amount of bulletin board material. I realize they do different things, but that could be a pick that haunts John Schneider.

I don't know if the Dolphins had the most over-rated draft, but they definitely had the most over-rated offseason. Miami's offseason was Dan Snyder-esque.

Minor correction regarding Idzik: the Jets had a different front office in 2012, and the info about Irvin was leaked post draft by Rex Ryan. Maybe Seattle knew anyway. In all seriousness John Schneider appears to have an intelligence network of some kind and it's working very well.

Anyway, my turn:

Biggest Steal:

John Simon, Baltimore Ravens. He ran essentially the same pro-day time as Khaseem Greene, and you already know he's a badass pass rusher. I think it was the worst kept secret in the NFL that Simon would be a Raven or a Steeler. He's probably not as fast as his forty but he's at least as fast as the player he's replacing, and speed isn't considered a big deal for Baltimore's 3-4 OLB spot. Getting a player of his caliber and intangibles in the 4th round amazes me. I'd nominate Ryan Swope but let's see if he's another Jahvid Best first. I loved Best, too.

Most guaranteed bust:

(Assuming 1st round? Because the easiest answer is Zac Dysert.)

Ezekiel Ansah, Detroit Lions. Solid athlete with no ability to disrupt. Like Margus Hunt, he's a bit like Jordan Kent the DE- he's very new to football and it shows in every way. He has some core strength and as a Michael Bennett styled 5-tech I think he could be okay, but I'm guessing he gets used as a pure pass rusher and I think he'll struggle. Ansah measured with long arms, but he plays like he has short arms. His tape reminded me a little of Melvin Ingram, who I hated as a prospect and who was held to just one sack in his rookie season. Ingram at least looked interesting as an interior rusher, and Ansah struggles inside even more than outside.

Most over rated draft:

Wait for it...

Seattle's. Bet you weren't expecting that one.

Okay, maybe it's not the most over-rated, but I think it's on the short list. I really liked some of the picks Seattle made, but let's be honest, there is a very real chance that Seattle's 2013 draft could produce zero rookie starts next season, and get the same kind of backhanded dismissal that the 49ers 2012 draft received. This draft was all about drafting depth and role players, with Michael and Simon being the only picks I'm confident we'll (eventually) see great things from, and both carry big risk (injuries; character). It's a lot like the 2011 draft in that it's completely banking on one of their high risk picks to be a grand slam, or else it's going to look pretty bad in retrospect. Richard Sherman saved that draft, and Sherman almost never got his chance.

The upside of this draft is pretty good, but the downside looks an awful lot like the Steelers draft of 2008. Both drafts led off with an "upside" running back and selected an "upside" receiver soon after. Both the 2008 Steelers and the 2013 Seahawks were applauded as being among the best drafts the day of, not because the drafts themselves were all that great, but because of the sterling reputation of the respective front offices who ran them.

Today, the Steelers 2008 draft class is consider by many Steelers fans to be the worst in recent memory. I don't think it's going to that bleak for Seattle most likely, but at the same time I feel like all the good grades we've gotten in the media are not because of the picks themselves, but because of the man who made them. As the 2008 Steelers showed, that can prove to be a mistake. Right now everyone is afraid to bash a Seahawks draft, no matter how puzzling it looks, and some have even listed the Seahawks draft as being one of the best in the league. That strikes me as overhyping things.

Timeout. I hope you don't think my negative tone here means I think Seattle had a lousy draft. I can already see the posts saying that I'm hating on the draft because they didn't draft players I wanted, which is wrong on both fronts. Seattle did a solid job. I loved several of their picks (particularly Michael) and it's a draft with excellent upside. It's also as murky a draft class as you'll find. I loved when Hawkblogger called Russell Wilson Seattle's "powerball" pick last year. The 2013 draft is loaded with powerball picks. We'll see how that works out, as powerball isn't something you expect to win.

So why over-rated? Considering that everyone is mindlessly praising our picks while being afraid to criticize, I think it makes Seattle fair game for the "most over-rated" label this year. I don't think Seattle's draft was better than any of our division rivals this year (I think all four are pretty close). I think if we are lucky, this draft is another 2011 with one of our picks being a Sherman type success, but the national sports writers have basically been shocked into submission to the point where every Seahawks draft might as well be the 2012 group.

It all sets up for a fairly obvious 2014 backlash when almost none of our draft picks play significant snaps next season. It's all so obvious, but it will catch 99% of people off guard. You just watch.

The 2008 Steelers draft reminded us that even smart picks can bust, and even good front offices can still have bad drafts. Luck is a major factor. That draft didn't do much to help the team, but guess what? The Steelers still won the Superbowl the very next season.


Last edited by kearly on Sun May 05, 2013 10:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Biggest reach: Mingo. Only because I can't believe he went as high as he did. Seems to me like a lot of pre-draft hype. could have put Ansah here as well as both are "reaches" to me. Great athletic ability, but overwhelming bust potential on both.

Biggest steal: Quinton Patton. I'm probably a homer but I have no idea how he lasted to the last pick (not counting compensatory selections) of the 4th. Gonna be an interesting situation at WR for the 49ers. Could be amazing or could leave a lot to be desired. Crabtree is the only guarantee of that core. Boldin is new, Williams and Manningham are coming off big injuries and Jenkins didn't contribute last year but has worked hard/bulked up. Wide open for Patton to contribute.

Most guaranteed bust: Dion Jordan. If nothing else because he went to the Dolphins. I don't like what they're doing, don't like their owner, and Ireland knows he has to produce or he's canned. I'm predicting them to be in complete firesale/rebuilding mode in maybe 2 or so year a la McKenzie and the Raiders. Jordan I think will actually be a nice player, just not a top 3 pick and hence my "bust" selection. Could have used my "reach" picks here as well.

Most over rated draft: popular choice here but Vikings take it for me. Yes they were really cute with their 3 first round picks, but those picks are too "high risk" for me. I love Patterson as a prospect, but a team that couldn't keep Harvin in check certainly isn't going to coach this guy up, even with his raw talents, imo. I don't like Floyd either, I think he will bust out. He's never done anything that makes you go "wow" on the field. His Sapp comparisons are way off base.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:35 pm 
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volsunghawk wrote:
peachesenregalia wrote:
Most over-rated Draft: Vikings. Don't know the name of their GM. Don't really care. They seem to be getting 'A' grades across the board from the pundits, and I just don't think they deserve it.


No kidding. Trading a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 7th for Cordarelle Patterson? That's kinda psycho.


Rams' fans are still debating whether or not Rams should have refused this offer and taken Ogletree.

Vikes are going to the biggest bust this season, draft included. AP will be the insufferable love child of the media, but he will not get his coveted prize.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:38 pm 
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Ireskell? lol. I like the creativity, but it's got no ring to it. Bit of a stretch. Ruskeland, maybe? IDK


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:42 am 
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kearly wrote:
Most over rated draft:

Wait for it...

Seattle's. Bet you weren't expecting that one.

Okay, maybe it's not the most over-rated, but I think it's on the short list. I really liked some of the picks Seattle made, but let's be honest, there is a very real chance that Seattle's 2013 draft could produce zero rookie starts next season, and get the same kind of backhanded dismissal that the 49ers 2012 draft received. This draft was all about drafting depth and role players, with Michael and Simon being the only picks I'm confident we'll (eventually) see great things from, and both carry big risk (injuries; character). It's a lot like the 2011 draft in that it's completely banking on one of their high risk picks to be a grand slam, or else it's going to look pretty bad in retrospect. Richard Sherman saved that draft, and Sherman almost never got his chance.

The upside of this draft is pretty good, but the downside looks an awful lot like the Steelers draft of 2008. Both drafts led off with an "upside" running back and selected an "upside" receiver soon after. Both the 2008 Steelers and the 2013 Seahawks were applauded as being among the best drafts the day of, not because the drafts themselves were all that great, but because of the sterling reputation of the respective front offices who ran them.


The problem isn't that the 49ers 2012 draft produced no starters, it's that it produced no PLAYERS.
James is the only player that saw the field for meaningful snaps (i think they had one latter pick play a handful special teams snaps across the entire season).
Even if you wipe out the fact that we drafted 2 16-game starters last year in Wilson and Wagner and an often-on-the-field specialist in Bruce Irvin, we also had Lane, Scruggs, Sweezy and Turbin start just 6 games between them (3 by Sweezy, 3 by Lane), which doesn't sound terrific, but when you consider that all 4 actually PLAYED in 10+ games each (53 between them - not including postseason) it looks far better value from mid/late round picks.

I guarantee if we have 4-5 players this year play meaningful snaps in 10+ games it'll be considered a successful draft (particularly considering the loaded talent already on the roster), and far more productive than San Francisco's 2012 picks.

Also, I'm beginning to think you really have something against KJ Wright, as you mentioned in your other thread that you are hoping to see him replaced and now you've basically flat-out dismissed him by saying that Sherman saved the draft - maybe that is so in the fact that he's probably the best cornerback in the league and we picked him in the 5th, but KJ Wright is a really really good player, playing a position and role where it's difficult for stats to really make him stand out (though I am hoping that the addition of Quinn as DC will give him some more opportunities).


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:53 am 
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Kip, Idzik or no, and I don't think Idzik has that much power anyway, the Jets front office remains leaky with the press. All spring, between Tebow, Revis, and draft picks, Everything they plan has been leaked to the media. That is something that has bedeviled them for some time now. Frankly, I thinkt Woody courts the press to the extreme, and employees just follow that lead.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 11:11 am 
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kearly wrote:
It's a lot like the 2011 draft in that it's completely banking on one of their high risk picks to be a grand slam, or else it's going to look pretty bad in retrospect. Richard Sherman saved that draft, and Sherman almost never got his chance.


Richard Sherman, K.J. Wright, Malcom Smith and Byron Maxwell taken after the third round and Doug Baldwin signed as a UDFA. The only two picks before that were Carpenter and Moffitt. Carpenter still has the potential to live up to his late 1st round status. Moffitt isn't a world beater, but I'd hardly call him a bust as a 3rd round selection.

Sherman would have gotten his opportunity eventually. To say he never would have had a shot is absurd. This would be a good draft, even if Sherman ended up as a top 100 player instead of a top 20 player. Wright is excellent. Baldwin broke the rookie record for receptions/receiving yards for a UDFA. Smith and Maxwell have played above their draft status (7th and 6th round, respectively). Moffitt could be better, but is far from a bust, and the jury is still out on Carp.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:10 pm 
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themunn wrote:
Also, I'm beginning to think you really have something against KJ Wright, as you mentioned in your other thread that you are hoping to see him replaced and now you've basically flat-out dismissed him by saying that Sherman saved the draft - maybe that is so in the fact that he's probably the best cornerback in the league and we picked him in the 5th, but KJ Wright is a really really good player, playing a position and role where it's difficult for stats to really make him stand out (though I am hoping that the addition of Quinn as DC will give him some more opportunities).


I was actually hyping up KJ Wright big time in the 2012 preseason. Obviously, RW was the 2012 preseason MVP for us, but Wright would have been my 2nd choice and Jeron Johnson probably would have been 3rd.

Then the regular season started and he was more of a mixed bag again. Super strong at the LOS against the run, but average to below average in most other respects. He's a big liability in coverage against fast tight ends and offers little as a blitzer. I don't think it's a coincidence that his role is being reduced next season. Given how tight our team's budget is about to get, I'd be a little surprised if Seattle retained him beyond 2014.

That's not to say he's a bad player, in fact he's a pretty good 4th round pick. It's just that if you are pointing to essentially a situational LB in the 4th round as your best pick in a draft, you probably didn't do well. That's why I think Sherman saved it.

DavidSeven wrote:
Sherman would have gotten his opportunity eventually. To say he never would have had a shot is absurd. This would be a good draft, even if Sherman ended up as a top 100 player instead of a top 20 player. Wright is excellent. Baldwin broke the rookie record for receptions/receiving yards for a UDFA. Smith and Maxwell have played above their draft status (7th and 6th round, respectively). Moffitt could be better, but is far from a bust, and the jury is still out on Carp.


You don't know that. If Seattle knew how good Sherman was they wouldn't have waited for half the secondary to get injured before starting him. Great players languish on the bench all the time in the NFL and in the other sports too. Sometimes players just hit a new level when they become starters too. My favorite recent example being James Harden, though honestly I always thought Harden was a boss during his days at ASU.

Quote:
Richard Sherman, K.J. Wright, Malcom Smith and Byron Maxwell taken after the third round and Doug Baldwin signed as a UDFA. The only two picks before that were Carpenter and Moffitt. Carpenter still has the potential to live up to his late 1st round status. Moffitt isn't a world beater, but I'd hardly call him a bust as a 3rd round selection.


UDFA's don't count as part of a draft class. 2011 did have a very good UDFA class (Jeron Johnson, Mike Morgan and Josh Portis, too). I guess it helps when you sign 19 of them, lol.

Carpenter isn't a bust yet, but Moffitt, Wright, Smith, Maxwell and possibly even Doug Baldwin strike me as players that will probably leave when they hit UFA. They have been contributors, but not foundational pieces. Wright and Baldwin were the two best non-Sherman additions and both will see their reps reduced significantly next season and strike me as likely departures in UFA. Sherman is the only no-doubter foundational player. He turns a so-so draft into a pretty good one all by himself.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk Non Seahawks draft.
 Post Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 9:10 pm 
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I heard that Buffalo leaked that they coveted Tavo Austin because they knew St Louis did too. E.J. Manuel is twice the QB that Ponder ever was. He had squat for receivers yet has a career 66% completion and over 7 yap iirc.

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