I'm trying to add up signing Avril & Bennett and I'm basically at ZERO for remaining cap space.

In other words -- someone is getting cut or restructured very soon.

Hawkstorian wrote:I'm trying to add up signing Avril & Bennett and I'm basically at ZERO for remaining cap space.

In other words -- someone is getting cut or restructured very soon.

Or they've already restructured or cut and we haven't heard about it, which wouldn't surprise me either.

Just looked at the Spotrac website, and using their figures, which don't yet include Avril, but do include Bennett, we are about $9.5 million under the cap. If they balance Avril at 2 years, that leaves us $2 million. Figuring we have RFA's to put in, which will knock a few of the 480,000 contracts off the list, I'd say we are at about zero, so we should look to see a cut of Obamanu, a trade of Flynn or a restructure somewhere to get more names. Otherwise we'll stay pretty quiet in free agency from here on out.

Cut Obomanu. That is 2+ million of wasted money and I am a staunch supporter of Obomanu after being the only dude that did not quit trying in the playoff loss against Green Bay.

With Obomanu gone -- I'm calculating cap space at under $2m. If nothing else takes place, that money would need to be used to sign the eventual draft picks. If the Seahawks are to do anything else this off-season they will need to cut or re-structure some more deals.

Hawkstorian wrote:With Obomanu gone -- I'm calculating cap space at under $2m. If nothing else takes place, that money would need to be used to sign the eventual draft picks. If the Seahawks are to do anything else this off-season they will need to cut or re-structure some more deals.

Just looking through Spotrac's list now. They still have Obo in there and don't have details yet for Avril, so this is what I see from the top 51 listed there

Top 51 contracts (not counting Avril signing or Obo cut): $125,697,830

Rolled over Cap space: $13,200,000

Leaves us: $112,497,830

Dead Money: $891,000

Total cap used: $113,388,830

If you remove Obo's salary and leave in his dead money, you subtract $2.3 million

After Obo cut: $111.088,830

Add in Avril to keep the top 51 figure it's exactly half of the money in his contract ($7,500,000)

After Avril: $118,588,830

Add in $3 million for Restricted Free Agents (best guess)

After RFA: $121,588,830

Total Cap: $123,000,000

Leaves us: $1,411,170 under the cap.

There are a slew of guys in the $480,000-$555,000 range so it should even out pretty close when we sign our rookies to contracts, because we don't have a first round pick, and compensation drops pretty fast with each round.

The $1.4 million isn't enough though to re-sign our own free agents, so we will need to make some space. I can see a few restructures coming, but not sure from where.

I have issues with Spotrac -- they don't really look at every deal, they just bring in pubished information from other sources.

That said -- you're at $1.4M and I'm more like $1.8 -- virtually the same in the big picture.

Can we re-name this thread -- "Dave and John talk about cap space" ?

Hawkstorian wrote:I have issues with Spotrac -- they don't really look at every deal, they just bring in pubished information from other sources.

That said -- you're at $1.4M and I'm more like $1.8 -- virtually the same in the big picture.

Can we re-name this thread -- "Dave and John talk about cap space" ?

I don't mind if they aren't actually using their own source for the information, as long as the information they provide is correct. I do go to places like over the cap as well, but I just like the way spotrac is formatted for doing quick analyses.

Nobody seems to have the Avril information yet. It will be interesting if they made that deal more cap friendly this year or if they split it down the middle, but as far as I can see out there, nobody has that detail yet.

And yes, that would be an appropriate title, but hopefully it helps those out who have questions and at least we can just point here instead of explaining everything over and over each time someone new asks

It helps us. Keep talking. We'll keep eavesdroing.

How in the hell are we going to sign rookies with that amount of money?

Well, I think the earlier discussion was pre-Obo release. That would boost us to around $4m, I guess. Which should be plenty, especially without Rd 1 pick.

Rookies don't really cost that much against the cap, especially since we won't have a #1 pick. Only signing bonuses reduce the cap since most rookies deals aren't in the "top 51" deals when they are signed. When you hear about 'rookie pool' it isn't the same thing as cap necessary to sign rookies.

Sutz -- when Dave and are talking $1.4 - $1.8M that's post Obo. Also, no one has reported exact terms on Avril so we don't know what his 2013 cap number is.

What Dave said earier is kind of interesting -- deals may get re-worked and we wouldn't hear about it until much later. If you hear at some point that Kam Chancellor has signed an extension, we will wonder if what else changed to allow that deal to happen.

OK, John, my bad on the Obo thing.

BTW, you guys please keep it up. We all get informed when we read this thread.

I'm glad you guys know about all this stuff. Crap, I am going to buy a new car and trying to budget for that is a nightmare.

I just want to throw in there that I have a hard time buying the line that the Seahawks are going to pay Chris Clemons $6M in 2013 after signing Bennett & Avril. At some point he'll be given a number and told to take it or leave it.

Looking at Clemon's contract, according to Rotoworld $1.5M of his 2013 is guaranteed. Given that, it would be hard to get him to to $2M, more likely $3M.... meaning the most we could save by re-working his deal is $3M.

Not just Clemons, but I was looking at Miller's contract too, but there are a lot of guarantees in there. His entire Base salary this year, plus most of his base salary next year are guaranteed, and although we all like to think that it would be great for a guy to rework their contracts, most contracts don't come with those kinds of future guarantees. If it were me, I don't think I would rework my deal If I were in his position.

I can see Clemons reworking his deal somewhat because of his injury though. He might get some type of guarantee that he gets PUP'd or something to agree to the reduction which would give him the best chance at a full recovery and still be back in time for the final 10 weeks of the season and the post season. Although that is completely speculation on my part.

Mebane's contract has possibilities though. He could rework his deal to get a new signing bonus, as he's only got $600,000 in dead money in his current deal, so we could effectively rearrange his money around and lower his current cap value if we were so inclined.

The rest of the contracts appear like they won't be saving us much, so after those two, we are looking at possibly cutting guys who could be replaced in the draft. An example there is Heath Farwell. He's due $1.5 million this year with only 333,334 in dead money, and we MAY be able to replace him in the draft, but who knows what the draft plan is, but replacing some of the top 51 with draft picks will open up some money.

Hey John, I have a question that I really don't see answered anywhere. Last year the Cowboys and the Redskins were both assessed cap penalties for abusing the non cap year in 2010. It totaled $46 million over the two years or $23 million per year. That money was to be added evenly to teams caps across the league and comes to an extra $766,666 per team. I am under the assumption that this is reflected in the total released as this years cap, but I can't find that conclusively anywhere, which leaves open the possibility that the cap number we read about is the original cap number, and each team may still have that extra 3/4 million of space. Of course without an answer it's hard do tell for sure. Have you heard anything definite on this?

Largent80 wrote:How in the hell are we going to sign rookies with that amount of money?

I don't know if this is still the case but only the top 51 contracts count, and every rookie signed bumps another low contract off the bottom. Add in the rookie wage cap, and rookie signings now take up very little cap room.

Thanks to Jazzhawk for the link (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66749&p=898508#p898508)

Looks like Avril's deal is MUCH friendlier than anticipated. His cap number for this year (assuming the numbers reported are accurate) will be only $3.75 million, which adds $3.75 million back into the cap projections we'd made.

My estimate with the new numbers - $5,161,170 under the cap.

Hawkstorian had it around $1.8 million so with the added money, that would put us around $5.5 million under the cap.

So basically we have somewhere in the $5 million+ range of space available. MUCH better shape than originally expected.

That looks about right, Dave. $5m gives us breathing room. Enough to add back Branch and maybe some other small deals, plus add rookies.

EDIT** My latest spreadsheet has us at $5,084,576 in available cap so you and I are $76,594 different!

John Clayton has the number at a very specific $6.43m as of this afternoon.

Clayton may be right, we're all relying on imperfect information. It's possible Zac Miller's roster bonus converted to a signing bonus or any number of other changes. Sights like overthecap and spotrac don't have everything right.

Hawkstorian wrote:Clayton may be right, we're all relying on imperfect information. It's possible Zac Miller's roster bonus converted to a signing bonus or any number of other changes. Sights like overthecap and spotrac don't have everything right.

When I heard Clayton's number, he was talking about it without considering Obomanu's release (which so far hasn't been made official anywhere that I've seen). I also doubt he's figured in any of the RFA contracts, as they technically haven't been signed (from what I've been able to find) and until they are signed, they aren't officially counting against the cap.

Basically the number is constantly in flex in the off season, but I don't think that Clayton's math figures in any of the flex, and only gives the official number as given to him at any given point.

Could one of you nice people explain how a incentive is deemed likely or unlikely and how they affect the cap?

A London Hawk wrote:Could one of you nice people explain how a incentive is deemed likely or unlikely and how they affect the cap?

If he did it last year, it's "Likely". If he didn't do it last year it's "Not Likely" ... unless

... there's a whole table of stuff in the CBA that are always considered likely. For example, a certain number of rushing yards is always considered "Likely".

More often we see escalators instead of incentives. An escalator says if you get a certain number of sacks (or yards or catches or go to the pro bowl) in 2012, you're base salary in 2013 increases.

kidhawk wrote:
I also doubt he's figured in any of the RFA contracts, as they technically haven't been signed (from what I've been able to find) and until they are signed, they aren't officially counting against the cap.

RFA tenders count against the cap.

Hawkstorian wrote:

kidhawk wrote:
I also doubt he's figured in any of the RFA contracts, as they technically haven't been signed (from what I've been able to find) and until they are signed, they aren't officially counting against the cap.

RFA tenders count against the cap.

They are held against the cap, in other words you have to have enough space to sign those tenders at all times by league rule, but I was under the impression that most reported cap values aren't including them because until they are signed, they can still negotiate deals that would change the values? Is this not correct?

I went back through all the deals and compared my worksheet to what's out there on the various websites. Interestingly, Michael Bennett is listed at $4.8M, so not quite the $5M reported. Without getting into all the gory details, I'm showing $5,665,576 available. This includes the three RFAs at $1,323,000 which counts against the cap, although David is right that offer could be withdrawn or a different contract signed, which would change the total.

Added Sunday:

I've been corresponding with the founder of one of the salary cap sites and apparently there was another adjustment just prior to free agency from the $13.2M figure that's been widely reported. In fact, the Seahawks got another $1M or so adjusted upward so our total cap is $137.2M.

Seahawks right now have about $6.5M in available space, even after rookies are signed they would have over $6M. Probably enough to sign another mid-level veteran and work out an extension with Chancellor if the parties are willing.

Hawkstorian wrote:I went back through all the deals and compared my worksheet to what's out there on the various websites. Interestingly, Michael Bennett is listed at $4.8M, so not quite the $5M reported. Without getting into all the gory details, I'm showing $5,665,576 available. This includes the three RFAs at $1,323,000 which counts against the cap, although David is right that offer could be withdrawn or a different contract signed, which would change the total.

Added Sunday:

I've been corresponding with the founder of one of the salary cap sites and apparently there was another adjustment just prior to free agency from the $13.2M figure that's been widely reported. In fact, the Seahawks got another $1M or so adjusted upward so our total cap is $137.2M.

Seahawks right now have about $6.5M in available space, even after rookies are signed they would have over $6M. Probably enough to sign another mid-level veteran and work out an extension with Chancellor if the parties are willing.

Thanks John, I hadn't looked at the numbers since I last did the math in this thread, was kind of waiting to see what our next move was. I was thinking that the extra money added to the cap may have been that extra allotment from the Cowboys/Redskins cap penalty. I'd wondered if that money had been originally counted, but if there was that addition that wasn't widely mentioned, that could be it.

I'm not sure if we will be going after anymore free agents that aren't our own. I would guess that Hauschka may eat up maybe a million or so of that cap and I still think Branch is a consideration out there, but they are letting him test the market and see that his price isn't as high as he may think. My guess is that we have a number in mind and if he can do better than that we let him walk, if not, we get a deal done there as well. Then with extending Kam, which I think is just a matter of time, and our draft, I think we likely aren't going to see much more "action" this offseason. Of course trying to pin down what this front office is up to is nearly an impossible task. It does seem though that we have the cash to be able to do what we need to do and still have money to do at least one extension if not more, depending on who they believe to be core to the future.

Hawkstorian wrote:I just want to throw in there that I have a hard time buying the line that the Seahawks are going to pay Chris Clemons $6M in 2013 after signing Bennett & Avril. At some point he'll be given a number and told to take it or leave it.

Looking at Clemon's contract, according to Rotoworld $1.5M of his 2013 is guaranteed. Given that, it would be hard to get him to to $2M, more likely $3M.... meaning the most we could save by re-working his deal is $3M.

Catching up on some threads

You can't just look at guaranteed money. $1.5 million 2013 is guaranteed but he got a 3 year $6million signing bonus. So $2 / year is hitting each year. You are hitting your salary cap with $5.5 million this year if you cut him. Sure zero next year but you are not going to cut a guy that costs you $5.5 million if cut

Go to spotract their number is more accurate at $5.8 million dead money. If you cut him next year all you are paying is $2million and now it would make a lot more sense if he isn't productive.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/seattle-seah ... s-clemons/

mikeak wrote:

Hawkstorian wrote:I just want to throw in there that I have a hard time buying the line that the Seahawks are going to pay Chris Clemons $6M in 2013 after signing Bennett & Avril. At some point he'll be given a number and told to take it or leave it.

Looking at Clemon's contract, according to Rotoworld $1.5M of his 2013 is guaranteed. Given that, it would be hard to get him to to $2M, more likely $3M.... meaning the most we could save by re-working his deal is $3M.

Catching up on some threads

You can't just look at guaranteed money. $1.5 million 2013 is guaranteed but he got a 3 year $6million signing bonus. So $2 / year is hitting each year. You are hitting your salary cap with $5.5 million this year if you cut him. Sure zero next year but you are not going to cut a guy that costs you $5.5 million if cut

Go to spotract their number is more accurate at $5.8 million dead money. If you cut him next year all you are paying is $2million and now it would make a lot more sense if he isn't productive.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/seattle-seah ... s-clemons/

With the extra money mentioned above, and the EXTREMELY friendly cap contracts the three big signings were, we still have over $6 million in space, so it may mean a slightly less chance of us needing to rework his contract.

PFT is reporting available cap space at about $6.8M

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... -march-26/

Which means we're pretty close in our guestimating.

Cap space before Flynn trade: $6,839,008 (per NFL.Com)

PLUS his previous cap value: $7,250,000
MINUS his new dead cap: $4,000,000
MINUS new salary in top 51: 480,000

EQUALS new Seahawks available cap: $9,534,008

Shouldn't dead cap be $4million? Looks like you used 4 when you ran the numbers but typed 2

Just a note - not to debate at all it goes elsewhere. The Flynn move also freed up $8.25 million from the roster for next year. Many people said he would have been cut well in that case it moved $4million out of next years available cap.

Freed up lots of cash - wonder what we will use the $9 million for. I suspect Kam and rolling some money over for Sherman

Fixed

We've still got rookies and the extra from going from top 51 to full 53 to come out. I'm guessing about 7mil overall for Kam and rollover?

A London Hawk wrote:We've still got rookies and the extra from going from top 51 to full 53 to come out. I'm guessing about 7mil overall for Kam and rollover?

I wouldn't really worry about the rookies too much. Without a first rounder, a lot of the rookies will have very reasonable contracts, and many will take less cap than some of the people they bump off. So since everyone on our 51 man roster is making at LEAST $480,000, you can see that after the 2nd round, the numbers are pretty negligible and can be managed to have little to no impact on our actual cap numbers.

Examples of first year cap hits from 2012 rookies

2nd Round - Wagner $783,236

3rd Round - Russell Wilson $544,800

4th Round - Robert Turnbin $504,000

4th Round - Jaye Howard $498,716

5th Round - Korey Toomer $405,000

6th Round - Jeremey Lane $421,278

6th Round - Winston Guy $320,015

7th Round - Jeremey Sweezey $403,988

7th Round - Greg Scruggs $404,273

There's still the jump from top 51 to 53 plus PUP though?

A London Hawk wrote:There's still the jump from top 51 to 53 plus PUP though?

By the time we have to worry about the regular season totals, we will likely have changed the roster and probably cut a few guys and will change enough capwise that it does no real good to try to figure that in at the moment. I'd just stick with the numbers Hawkstorian put in and figure maybe another half million to deal with the first couple of rookies in the draft. The rest will settle itself when we make our final roster cutdowns.

I've never heard of this "jump" thing? Can someone explain that please?

Stoned Cold wrote:I've never heard of this "jump" thing? Can someone explain that please?

In the offseason, rosters are expanded, but only the top 51 salaries count against the salary cap. Once the pre season ends and teams make their final cut down, then all players on the roster are counted against the cap. Currently numbers 52 and 53 count $480,000 against the cap each, so that perceived jump would be just under $1 million. In reality though, there are often a few cuts from the top 51, so when you do add the bottom extra two, it often doesn't realize much of a change in the actual cap. This is solely dependent upon what players actually make the roster and is impossible to know until cuts are made.

kidhawk wrote:

Stoned Cold wrote:I've never heard of this "jump" thing? Can someone explain that please?

In the offseason, rosters are expanded, but only the top 51 salaries count against the salary cap. Once the pre season ends and teams make their final cut down, then all players on the roster are counted against the cap. Currently numbers 52 and 53 count $480,000 against the cap each, so that perceived jump would be just under $1 million. In reality though, there are often a few cuts from the top 51, so when you do add the bottom extra two, it often doesn't realize much of a change in the actual cap. This is solely dependent upon what players actually make the roster and is impossible to know until cuts are made.

I see, thanks. Sounds like its a pretty defined number. Basically 1 million. Also, I guess if you cut a higher priced veteran like we did last year with Kellen Winslow Jr. during final cuts than its not even something to be concerned with.

Stoned Cold wrote:I see, thanks. Sounds like its a pretty defined number. Basically 1 million. Also, I guess if you cut a higher priced veteran like we did last year with Kellen Winslow Jr. during final cuts than its not even something to be concerned with.

It's not necessarily that defined, I just used the next two on the list of highest priced players on our roster currently. Those "last two" could be 7th round rookies who's total may only be minimums and between them add up to Half a million. You could feasibly have more cap room after cutting one veteran and adding 1 rookie, then the additional 2 rookies for the season size cap roster of 53 instead of 51.

Basically it's way to convoluted to even hazard a guess until we see what cuts the team decides on.

I looked to see if this was posted elsewhere. I don't think so, but if it has been, my apologies. Via Field Gulls, these are the NFLPA's unofficial numbers: https://nflplayers.com/reports/RunPubli ... port=top51

Seattle is at 9.1M under the cap according to them.

According to overthecap.com Tony McDaniel signed a vet minimum deal for $850K plus a $50K signing bonus. This contract qualified for the minimum salary reduction so his cap number is only $605K. This contract has little impact on our overall cap space.

http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Tony McDaniel&Position=DT&Team=Seahawks

Hawkstorian wrote:According to overthecap.com Tony McDaniel signed a vet minimum deal for $850K plus a $50K signing bonus. This contract qualified for the minimum salary reduction so his cap number is only $605K. This contract has little impact on our overall cap space.

http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Tony McDaniel&Position=DT&Team=Seahawks

I'm guessing that is also why Quinn's contract is only counting as $620,000 even though he signed a $780,000 deal

Looks like Winfield's contract has a lot of clauses in it to make it more of a pay for play type of deal.

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Antoine_Winfiels_contract_in_Seattle_tied_heavily_to_performance041813

This is how the deal breaks down according to the link:

$500,000 Signing Bonus (guaranteed money)

$1,000,000 Base Salary ($500,000 guaranteed)

So far this puts him at 1 million in guaranteed money if he doesn't make it out of camp.

Assuming he makes it past pre season, we'd then have to guarantee the rest of his base salary and he also has incentives as listed below:

$31,250 per game he is active, which is $500,000 if he is active for every game.

$1,000,000 in "not likely to be earned" incentives, based on interceptions and playing time.

The article doesn't go into what the interceptions and playing time incentives are, so I can't really say whether he really may make those incentives. Assuming he plays for the whole season, this deal could be as little as $2 million or as much as $3 million.

All in all, I'd say it's a pretty good deal for us. $2 million to upgrade the slot CB position, with where we are at in our cap, is a pretty good bargain, and if he were to make the incentives to push it to $3 million, we'd have to assume he played better than expected.

Looks like details for Kam's contract are out and they look pretty good.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/breaking-down-darrelle-revis-kam-chancellor-contracts-145100917--nfl.html

As reported, he received a four year extension and here's how it breaks down

2013 he gets a $5 million signing bonus and his $1,323,000.000 salary was bumped to $2,852,500.00

This is a net increase in base of $1,529,500.00 for this season

in 2014 his base salary is $4,725,000.000 which is guaranteed for injury, and becomes guaranteed fully if he's still on the roster 5 days after the Superbowl

In 2015 his base salary is $4,550,000.00 which has the same guarantees as the 2014 salary except for some reason $4,450,000.00 is all the injury guarantee is good for. The roster guarantee is still the full Base salary.


From what I can tell the final two years have no guarantees

2016 base salary is $5,100,000.00

2017 he has a base salary of $6,800,000.00 plus an active roster bonus of $20,313.00 per game in which he is active.


According to the article it leave us approximately $4,698,000.00 in current cap space, which seems fairly close to where I was thinking we were right now. Still not sure what Hauschka's deal was though.

Hauschka got 715K, unclear guaranteed cash, according to https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/sta ... 7203638272

Smelly McUgly wrote:Hauschka got 715K, unclear guaranteed cash, according to https://twitter.com/Curtis_Crabtree/sta ... 7203638272

Thanks. I didn't figure his contract would be very high nor does it change the cap by much. There's really only a few hundred thousand difference between his number and Wiggs' number and should still leave us with somewhere around $4.5 million in space. More than enough to accommodate the rookies, especially since we won't be having to shell out any 1st round money.