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 Post subject: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:15 pm 
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after this season unless he has a terrific year? I notice that we can't really cut him this year as his cap hit would be 10.6 million this year. If we cut him after this year his cap hit would only be 3 million next season vs the 8.5 million if he was there at the start of the season. Am I wrong in any of this math? If I am I see almost no way Big Red is back for 2014 unless he take a major pay cut. I wonder if the plan is to give Bennett a shot at both 5T and 3T some and if he pans out as well as stays healthy to sign him to a longer term contract in place of Red. I would really really like to see a more versatile player at LDE. The way Bennett was rated the last last couple of years he could be an upgrade at both run and pass defense. Plus Bennett offers the ability to slide inside on passing downs and be an above average pass rusher from DT.

I would feel very comfortable if Bennett and Scruggs were our 2 LDE's who can slide to 3T for 2014-2015.

I wonder if a similar situation will happen with Clemons as well after this year? His cap hit in 2014 would be 8.166 million if he is on the team or 2.166 if cut. I think we could be set for 2014 and the next couple of years with Irvin and Avril as our LEO options. With both Red and Clemons cut after this season the team would save 11.5 million in cap room in 2014 allowing them to lock down Sherm and ET long term.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:20 pm 
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New defensive coordinator.

New defensive line coach.

Lots of "show me" short term contracts.

Room to experiment and realign the defensive line.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:20 pm 
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High expectations for high $$$ players. Both Clem and Bryant need to produce to stay on the team or at least, stay at that $$$ amount.

I don't think it would be a significant loss to release one or both. I would love it if we had a more versatile big man to take red's spot. Run D, check. Everything else? Not so much right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:24 pm 
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No way. He's a leader on the team. He stays.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Hell No, Red is a huge part of this team.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Yea I think Big Red and Clemons both have absolutely has been put on notice that they need to perform this year considering how much they get paid. If Michael Bennett gets double digit sacks you can bet the front office will want him back, especially if Big Red doesn't get any or if Clemons doesn't return to form.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:30 pm 
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SoulfishHawk wrote:
Hell No, Red is a huge part of this team.


Literally, or figuratively?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:34 pm 
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Red get cut......

Spare me

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:39 pm 
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If Red dominates and has his best year (2011) yet, he buys himself another year under his existing contract.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:58 pm 
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Team leader or not he has to perform, especially at the level of pay he is receiving. The other thing that makes him very expendable is he is basically good at one thing(and he wasn't even good at that last year.) and that is stopping the run from the 5T on obvious run downs. HE is making way, way too much money to be a 1 or 2 down player that can't move inside, can't provide any pass rush, etc... Even if he was a top 25 LDE against the run I don't think he is worth more than a couple million a year. If we are going to have a player that is only good at stuffing the run I would much rather have that come from the 3T position(McDaniel) at a couple mil a year.

My hope is that Scruggs and Bennett look good enough as 3 down players that are good against the run and pass that we don't need Red. I am thinking our future Dline could consist of a 6 man rotation that can play 90% of the snaps. That line would consist of Avril and Bruce as pure DE's/LEO's, Mebane and a big run stuffing 3T as pure DTs with Scruggs and Bennett being guys who can play LDE or DT depending on the situation.

One thing I think the consistantly good teams do is keep the core guys who really make the team go but are willing to cut/let walk/trade other pieces(especially when they are getting older) even if they are fan favorites. You have to know when to say good bye even if fans think it is too early.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Every player who's due a lot of money is in danger of being cut/restructured if they don't have a terrific season. This is how it works in the NFL. The sky is also blue.

You can apply this to Clem, Rice, Miller, Avril, Red... basically anyone with a big contract. Don't see any point in discussing this now. It's entirely dependent on Red's 2013 performance. He was slowed by injury in 2012, but still effective. We'll see how it goes.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:15 pm 
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DavidSeven wrote:
Every player who's due a lot of money is in danger of being cut/restructured if they don't have a terrific season. This is how it works in the NFL. The sky is also blue.

You can apply this to Clem, Rice, Miller, Avril, Red... basically anyone with a big contract. Don't see any point in discussing this now. It's entirely dependent on Red's 2013 performance. He was slowed by injury in 2012, but still effective. We'll see how it goes.


You are probably correct but this is a discussion board for fans and I think people are somewhat concerned on how guys like KJ, ET and Sherm get resigned long term. Now this is just my opinion but even if Red has a good season there is still no way in hell he isn't at least made to restructure his contract. Him getting cut is a huge, huge possibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:22 pm 
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I think it's WAY to early to be wondering if a player may or may not be cut due to salary NEXT off season. Red isn't going anywhere this off season for certain due to how his contract is structured. We have 16 games + Playoffs to determine Red's worth for the next season. He had a little bit of a down year this year due to injury. If that heals up and he gets back to the same player he was before the injury, then he stays and gets his bonus and full contract, if not, they may decide to talk to him about restructuring. This is really a "show me" year for Red. I love the guy, and believe that without the injury he's definitely worth every penny, but still will have to wait and see how that injury plays out and hope it doesn't linger on through this season as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:22 pm 
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There will definitely be tough decisions to make, and I certainly think that restructuring Red might be one option next year. But we also have flexibility with Avril and Bennett after 2013. I think the FO has left themselves a lot of options depending on who steps up in 2013. I'm interested to see how Red does with an off-season to get his foot right and with Quinn back in the mix.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Jville wrote:
New defensive coordinator.

New defensive line coach.

Lots of "show me" short term contracts.

Room to experiment and realign the defensive line.


Good way to look at it.

2013: Year of competition

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:25 pm 
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The contract that Red got baffles me. Was it like 7 mill a year wow.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Honestly I feel like as far as the team and fans go, he is probably the most overrated player on the hawks. He is a situational player who makes our run D better when they run to his side WHEN he is healthy. And as the league transitions more and more into a passing league Big Red's impact with the team continues to decrease. You can say he's an important emotional player on the team, but is that worth the expensive contract we are paying for him on a team full of underpaid stars who will need to be paid eventually?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:44 pm 
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Jville wrote:
New defensive coordinator.

New defensive line coach.

Lots of "show me" short term contracts.

Room to experiment and realign the defensive line.

That "new" defensive coordinator is the same guy that moved Red to the 5tech. I'm sure he knows what he has in Red.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Atradees wrote:
The contract that Red got baffles me. Was it like 7 mill a year wow.

All we did was match the Patriots offer to him

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:46 pm 
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Atradees wrote:
The contract that Red got baffles me. Was it like 7 mill a year wow.

Didn't bother me at the time because there was real interest in Red Bryant after his dominate year in 2011. They didn't want to lose him so they signed him to a big contract that reflected an expectation that he would be even better in 2012 ..... with specific improvement in his pass rush. Injury derailed his goals for 2012. Red's contract was a two year guarantee followed by three option years. I expect all parties to revisit his contract after the conclusion of the 2013 season.

New defensive coordinator.

New defensive line coach.

Lots of "show me" short term contracts.

Time to experiment and realign the defensive line.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:00 pm 
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If recent history is anything to consider the simple reality of being given a big contract doesn't insure a player a place on the team if he fails to compete or becomes too expensive for his production. That said I believe the FO believes Red to be a a part of the core group on the team and wishes to keep him. As others have said he is a team leader and a huge part of the physical presence of the run D. I think he had a down year last season with the foot injury and will need to bounce back so his name isn't one for consideration of trimming to reduce the team's cap exposure.

Another thought is the D is quite a bit behind the O in terms of $ allocated to the defensive side of the ball and he will need to really under perform to be a cut candidate. strnger things have happened though as Obo and BMW were cut after being given big contracts they were unable to play up to earning.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:36 pm 
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polarbill1999 wrote:
after this season unless he has a terrific year? I notice that we can't really cut him this year as his cap hit would be 10.6 million this year. If we cut him after this year his cap hit would only be 3 million next season vs the 8.5 million if he was there at the start of the season. Am I wrong in any of this math? If I am I see almost no way Big Red is back for 2014 unless he take a major pay cut. I wonder if the plan is to give Bennett a shot at both 5T and 3T some and if he pans out as well as stays healthy to sign him to a longer term contract in place of Red. I would really really like to see a more versatile player at LDE. The way Bennett was rated the last last couple of years he could be an upgrade at both run and pass defense. Plus Bennett offers the ability to slide inside on passing downs and be an above average pass rusher from DT.

I would feel very comfortable if Bennett and Scruggs were our 2 LDE's who can slide to 3T for 2014-2015.

I wonder if a similar situation will happen with Clemons as well after this year? His cap hit in 2014 would be 8.166 million if he is on the team or 2.166 if cut. I think we could be set for 2014 and the next couple of years with Irvin and Avril as our LEO options. With both Red and Clemons cut after this season the team would save 11.5 million in cap room in 2014 allowing them to lock down Sherm and ET long term.


Great post! I agree with everything you said. Hopefully Red can rebound after a subpar season.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:00 pm 
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Obviously they wouldn't cut him now. If they don't cut him he's $6.6 million against the cap, if they do cut him he's $10.6 million, meaning that we actually save $4 million this year by keeping him.

As far as next year, roster bonuses be avoided if you cut that player before the specified date. That means Seattle could release Bryant next season and only be on the hook for the $3 million remaining from his signing bonus and that would be it. If that's true, releasing him next year would save $1.5 million and get the team out of his huge 2015 and 2016 numbers.

Whenever you see a roster bonus put into a contract, it's basically a checkpoint. If the player has proven his worth by then, you keep him. If he hasn't, the roster bonus creates incentive to move in a different direction instead. So far Bryant hasn't made Seattle feel great about that contract, but next season could change that. Remember how we once thought that Zach Miller had no chance of seeing all that money this year? A good performance next season can change priorities.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:30 pm 
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Come on people!! Wake up! There is much more to wins and losses than stats.

The past two days I've had to read threads about how expendable Browner and Chancellor are. Now this.

Question...what makes our defense so feared? Could it be the big bad-arsed MF's that have to be dealt with?

We have the biggest, hardest hitting safety on this planet.
We have the biggest, most physical corner on this planet.
We have the biggest, best run-stopping 4-3 DE on this planet.

And these guys are the three most expendable?

These three have more to do with our defensive identity than anybody else, including Sherman and Thomas. If you don't think the psychological effect these guys have on opposing players and coaches influences wins and losses, I can't help you.

Red is going to have to re-work his number. I'm sure even he knows that. But Pete and John know how important he is to our success, and there aren't any other 4-3 teams that would pay him to play DE. The big man isn't going anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Yeah, it's probably close to 100% that Red either restructures (for a significant lower salary) or gets cut next year. The way his contract was structured, it was essentially a 2-year, $15.25 million deal with high-priced, non-guaranteed 2014-16 figures he was unlikely to ever see. His 2012 and 2013 base salaries were fully guaranteed, but there is no guaranteed money in the contract after 2013. His 2014 cap number is $9.125 million or he can be cut with a cap hit of $3 million (the pro-rated amount of his signing bonus), meaning the team would save $6.125 million against the cap by cutting him next year. Red is a fine role player, but run stopping D-lineman just aren't worth that kind of money in the NFL.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:34 pm 
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I don't see him being cut, but if he does not play at a higher level this year, come next offseason I could see the FO wanting to restructure his deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:49 pm 
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pehawk wrote:
No way. He's a leader on the team. He stays.


Agree with you but I'm so glad the team is being run with business in mind, not just sentiments. Yeah we'd love to see all these guys stay here until they are 35 and retire with 5 rings but that's not realistic. Some guys will give way to cheaper players, new leaders will arise and develop. New fan favorites as well. You keep guys who are the top 3 of their position, a guy like Earl Thomas or Richard Sherman. Anyone else, you keep them IF it works for the team and the player.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Tical21 wrote:
Come on people!! Wake up! There is much more to wins and losses than stats.

The past two days I've had to read threads about how expendable Browner and Chancellor are. Now this.

Question...what makes our defense so feared? Could it be the big bad-arsed MF's that have to be dealt with?

We have the biggest, hardest hitting safety on this planet.
We have the biggest, most physical corner on this planet.
We have the biggest, best run-stopping 4-3 DE on this planet.

And these guys are the three most expendable?

These three have more to do with our defensive identity than anybody else, including Sherman and Thomas. If you don't think the psychological effect these guys have on opposing players and coaches influences wins and losses, I can't help you.

Red is going to have to re-work his number. I'm sure even he knows that. But Pete and John know how important he is to our success, and there aren't any other 4-3 teams that would pay him to play DE. The big man isn't going anywhere.


Sherman and Thomas make up for alot of what our D does they cannot be lost in the secondary everyone else is replacable. Red is good but Bennett could be better in both the run and pass. Red is a good run defender but can't generate a good pass rush from the left side on 1st n 2nd down and that is what seattle needs to maximize its D. Red is kinda one dimensional and teams can game plan around that.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:24 am 
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Red was having a very good September with pushing the pocket on passing downs and controlling his gap on runs, but the injury took hold. For the people who said that we couldn't since he is one of the leaders on the team, so was Leon Washington. We got a younger better version of Leon and we let him go. I will quote Pete, "I would replace Earl Thomas if I could find a better player." We will always look to upgrade over anyone with this front office. That is the way a franchise should be run. There are a lot of posters who are talking about our draft choices having no chance to make the team, but I will tell you right now that as soon as they are drafted they are going to be expected to take the incumbents roster spot. If they can't they won't make the team, but they will be given the opportunity.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Red most likely going to be cut
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:26 am 
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Missing_Clink wrote:
Yea I think Big Red and Clemons both have absolutely has been put on notice that they need to perform this year considering how much they get paid. If Michael Bennett gets double digit sacks you can bet the front office will want him back, especially if Big Red doesn't get any or if Clemons doesn't return to form.


yep!

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