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 Post subject: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:31 pm 
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A while back there was a thread that talked about how JS was initially dead set against trading for Harvin, mainly over the price, specifically the contract extension part.

Reflecting back on that fact just now, it donned on me: If John Schneider reacted so negatively to the idea of trading for Harvin initially, then it's very likely that the trade for Harvin was not his idea in the first place. And if it wasn't JS's idea, who's was it? Does Darrell Bevell have that kind of pull? I really doubt it. That just leaves Carroll, and of course PC had called Harvin "the best football player in America coming out of high school" in an interview from October of last year. Carroll had fought hard to recruit Harvin but just missed.

I can't prove it, but the evidence strongly suggests that the driver behind the Harvin trade was Carroll, not Schneider. In fact, it sounds like it might have been a source of friction for a short time given how emphatic Schneider's disinterest in handing out a (feared) Megatron type contract was. More on this in a moment.

The more we learned about the Whitehurst trade, the more it appeared to be a John Schneider move that Pete Carroll signed off on. John Schneider had a powerful memory of scouting Whitehurst going back to his time in Green Bay. The more we learned about the Russell Wilson pick, the more it appeared to be a John Schneider move that Pete Carroll signed off on. John Schneider was going to Wilson games in person and then raving about him to Pete.

Pete's had his victories too. I'm sure Mike Williams was his idea, as was Richard Sherman and, most likely, Brandon Browner. And now, in my opinion, you can probably add Percy Harvin to that list.

Point being, you have to really marvel at the working relationship these two guys have. Pete handpicked John Schneider and wouldn't be outside his rights to throw his weight around, but he doesn't. I get the impression that when they disagree, they listen to each other and leave the door open for persuasion, and often actually become persuaded. In the case of Harvin, the difference between a 1st, 3rd, 7th and $11 million a year isn't much different from a 1st, 3rd, 7th, and $13/$14 million a year, but it was enough to get John on board, probably because he saw the enthusiasm in Pete's eyes.

In the previous administration, we saw the team flush talents down the drain because Tim Ruskell and Mike Holmgren had a terrible working relationship. Other than a fishy rumor about Pete yelling at John over a fullback a few years ago, these guys never seem to clash over anything. And I don't care how similar two people are, they will always have a disagreement here and there. The way that they are able to come to a mutual understanding is very impressive. I have little doubt it's this ability to listen and compromise is one of the biggest reasons for their success.


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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Great post.

It kind of gets made fun of from time to time, but pete really has a strong personal philosophy that he seems to take seriously and lives by it. He's really not driven by ego as far as I can tell. Stands to reason he would play well with others as long as they buy into the program. That's my take on it anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:55 pm 
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As we watch Darryl Bevell handle Percy Harvin, we may well see yet another revelation in the value of Darrell Bevell.

Darrell has clearly taken on ownership of the Harvin addition. And recall that Darrell was considered for head coaching jobs elsewhere. Without Bevell's endorsement, the Harvin outcome likely could have been different. IMO The man that has "bought in" big time and underwrote all this is Coach Pete Carroll.


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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:51 am 
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Jville wrote:
Darrell has clearly taken on ownership of the Harvin addition. And recall that Darrell was considered for head coaching jobs elsewhere. Without Bevell's endorsement, the Harvin outcome likely could have been different. IMO The man that has "bought in" big time and underwrote all this is Coach Pete Carroll.


In Sando's recent Harvin article Carroll talked about how Bevell's rave review of Harvin helped "cement" Pete's view.

Quote:
"Darrell had a great relationship with Percy that I found out, after talking with Percy, was reciprocated," Carroll said. "They worked together really well. He raved about his competitiveness, raved about his work ethic, raved about his talent. It was just total positive, supportive perspective from Darrell on him. The best perspective that we could have called on was what Darrell told me. That cemented the idea, 'Let’s go for it.'"


I'm pretty sure Pete was the engineer behind all this, but if anything it sounds like Bevell put the wind at his back.

I've also heard Pete talk about how acquiring Harvin meant "adding space" for our receivers. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a line he heard from Bevell during their Harvin discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:38 am 
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I appreciate your perspective, but Schneider was on board for the most part IMO. He just wanted the extra sales pitch boost that Pete provided, and Pete was able to do that after receiving the extra wind in his sails from Bevell. Just my opinion though

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Last edited by The Yugoslavian on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:47 am 
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Regardless of who was the prime mover behind the trade, I'm happy that:

1. Our pro scouts were heads-up and and quickly alerted PC and JS.

2. PC and JS proceded with due diligence before making a move

3. They were diligent, but still weren't 'late to the party,' so to speak

We really have a well-oiled personnel machine :th2thumbs:


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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:08 am 
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The deal couldn't have happened any other way....

The GM isn't supposed to (nor would they have the time given the impending draft) to concoct crazy/innovative new offensive lineups and plays. To a GM, Percy Harvin is a 5'11" receiver that runs good routes and can return kicks. To Bevell and Carroll, Harvin fits the article someone recently linked about both stretching the field and creating space on the wide side of the field. Of course Harvin in motion would create a scenario where DBs have to backpeddle, of course a direct snap creates defensive fits, of course having Harvin and Lynch in the backfield gives exponentially more options... but it wouldn't make the trade a + until Bevell, Carroll and Schneider sit down and say "This is another way we can use him and it brings value to these other offensive weapons." So once JS sees that the addition of PH actually adds significant value (read: raises production) to other players, it makes financial sense. If I were JS, I'd want to know, statistically, how we expect to line him up, how many times, and how often we'd expect those plays to "work". Then it's pretty easy to judge whether the addition ,as a whole, is worth the cost. It's not for just another WR, even if he's a really good receiver. JS told us that was his initial reaction. It, apparently, was once the payoff for Lynch, Tate, Rice, Wilson, Miller... are all accounted for.


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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:13 am 
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This is hugely speculative, but so what? It's fun to think and wonder about. Would be a real pleasure to one day see a tell-all book published detailing how this dynasty was constructed.

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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:50 am 
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I was under the impression that the Vikings were calling teams asking if they would be interested in Harvin. JS initially said no because of the type of contract Harvin would require in addition to the draft picks.

Once he saw that the price would come down, he was very interested and happy about the trade.

I don't know that it was a matter of Pete wanted him but Schneider didn't.

I think they both wanted him from the beginning. JS is just the guy that is in charge of the realities of what a player will cost, so it turned him off when the Vikings came calling initially. But JS and Pete have always been pretty much on the same page when it comes to player evaluation.

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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:19 am 
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Funny if it was actually Paul Allen sittin at home and picked up his phone " Hey J & P I want this guy! Make it happen!" lol Awesome these guys all trust each other and are like one big family...... Go Hawks!


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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:23 am 
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bestfightstory wrote:
Would be a real pleasure to one day see a tell-all book published detailing how this dynasty was constructed.


I like the way you think. After 5 championships in the next decade a book like that would be a best seller. Not just by Hawk fans either.

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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:29 am 
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My understanding of how they draft is that Schneider gives Carroll a list of guys that he likes and then Carroll gets to choose from them. That seems a smart way to allow Schneider to utilize his excellent scouting skills while also giving Carroll room to choose the guys that best fit his offensive and defensive concepts and schemes.

That is another building block to explain how exactly the Schneider/Carroll working relationship is constructed.

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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:09 am 
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kearly wrote:
A while back there was a thread that talked about how JS was initially dead set against trading for Harvin, mainly over the price, specifically the contract extension part.

Reflecting back on that fact just now, it donned on me: If John Schneider reacted so negatively to the idea of trading for Harvin initially, then it's very likely that the trade for Harvin was not his idea in the first place. And if it wasn't JS's idea, who's was it? Does Darrell Bevell have that kind of pull? I really doubt it. That just leaves Carroll, and of course PC had called Harvin "the best football player in America coming out of high school" in an interview from October of last year. Carroll had fought hard to recruit Harvin but just missed.

I can't prove it, but the evidence strongly suggests that the driver behind the Harvin trade was Carroll, not Schneider. In fact, it sounds like it might have been a source of friction for a short time given how emphatic Schneider's disinterest in handing out a (feared) Megatron type contract was. More on this in a moment.

The more we learned about the Whitehurst trade, the more it appeared to be a John Schneider move that Pete Carroll signed off on. John Schneider had a powerful memory of scouting Whitehurst going back to his time in Green Bay. The more we learned about the Russell Wilson pick, the more it appeared to be a John Schneider move that Pete Carroll signed off on. John Schneider was going to Wilson games in person and then raving about him to Pete.

Pete's had his victories too. I'm sure Mike Williams was his idea, as was Richard Sherman and, most likely, Brandon Browner. And now, in my opinion, you can probably add Percy Harvin to that list.

Point being, you have to really marvel at the working relationship these two guys have. Pete handpicked John Schneider and wouldn't be outside his rights to throw his weight around, but he doesn't. I get the impression that when they disagree, they listen to each other and leave the door open for persuasion, and often actually become persuaded. In the case of Harvin, the difference between a 1st, 3rd, 7th and $11 million a year isn't much different from a 1st, 3rd, 7th, and $13/$14 million a year, but it was enough to get John on board, probably because he saw the enthusiasm in Pete's eyes.

In the previous administration, we saw the team flush talents down the drain because Tim Ruskell and Mike Holmgren had a terrible working relationship. Other than a fishy rumor about Pete yelling at John over a fullback a few years ago, these guys never seem to clash over anything. And I don't care how similar two people are, they will always have a disagreement here and there. The way that they are able to come to a mutual understanding is very impressive. I have little doubt it's this ability to listen and compromise is one of the biggest reasons for their success.

That means that Pete's mantra of "Always Compete", would include even himself?, OH HELL YEAH!!


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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:11 pm 
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As many of my neighbors and colleagues down here would say, "excelente oferta, Senor Early". I tend to agree with you assertions.

BTW: your new avatar doesn't do pushups, he pushes the earth down, and only after making sure Russell Wilson is not currently engaged in one-on-one passing drills...

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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:56 pm 
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If this duo (trio with Bevell) remains our front office for the next several years, I'll be interested to see how they work together on contract extensions in light of Harvin's signing. If they can keep the team highly competitive, retain key players, and maintain a winning record without a front office divorce, it will speak volumes about their competitiveness, yet humility and willingness to listen to one another's opposing views.

A timely ancient proverb sums up my view: "Where there is no guidance the people fall, But in abundance of counselors there is victory."

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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:33 pm 
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The cool thing about Carroll is that even though he is ultra-competitive and has very strong philosophical approaches towards football and managing a team, he's pretty flexible and open-minded. He's willing to hear other people out and put himself in their shoes, even if it's initially against his own biases or personal interests.

FA and the draft have multiple examples of him not just "having things his own way" but rather compromising.

What also stuck out to me was PC being very supportive of Bevell, Idzik, Bradley, etc. during their interviews for other positions on other teams. Many coaches and FOs (understandably) guard their coaching, talent, and assets very aggressively and jealously. But Pete didn't try to hold any of them back from advancing their own careers even though it would have made his job a little harder. As a matter of fact, when asked about these candidates, he went out of his way to be their PR representative and spoke glowingly about their ability and his confidence in them to succeed.

Also, allowing Leon Washington to fulfill his wishes to test FA and have the flexibility to choose where he wanted to play and more control over his contract rather than trade him to Tampa Bay for additional draft picks.

This is clearly a man who, although competitive, is not totally driven or motivated by what benefits him or "what he can get."

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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:32 pm 
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Carroll soaked up all the Bill Walsh he could get during his time around him. Walsh was a guy who advocated for his subordinates to get their own head gigs. I see pros and cons, but overall, talented people are more likely to come to such a situation. I say it's better to have someone good for a couple years, and then find a new talent, than to have someone mediocre for 5 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Percy Harvin illustrates PC/JS working relationship
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:31 pm 
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olyfan63 wrote:
Carroll soaked up all the Bill Walsh he could get during his time around him. Walsh was a guy who advocated for his subordinates to get their own head gigs. I see pros and cons, but overall, talented people are more likely to come to such a situation. I say it's better to have someone good for a couple years, and then find a new talent, than to have someone mediocre for 5 years.



Continuity is important but so is freshness and new eyes ideas. Look at the Walsh tree and how successful all those coaches have been. Gosh Harbaugh is a douche.


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