Ok.. so.. after hearing people talking about these books and tv shows.. I borrowed the books last week and decided to get further behind in my work and read them.

The story is good..but..is it just me but is the writer not all that good? he seems better in the idea than the execution.. and his editor sucks. I cant count how many times Ive read "should of" for "should have".. in a professionally published book!

All the "bad" guys talk the same.. and all the "good" guys talk the same so far..

Im entertained..but .. the books could be so much better..

Vetamur wrote:Ok.. so.. after hearing people talking about these books and tv shows.. I borrowed the books last week and decided to get further behind in my work and read them.

The story is good..but..is it just me but is the writer not all that good? he seems better in the idea than the execution.. and his editor sucks. I cant count how many times Ive read "should of" for "should have".. in a professionally published book!

All the "bad" guys talk the same.. and all the "good" guys talk the same so far..

Im entertained..but .. the books could be so much better..

I agree about the editor. Martin's writing is decent, but he spends too much time telling you what everyone is wearing all the time. the story is a good one so far, but I'm concerned that he's letting the story get away from him by shooting off on too many tangents. I hope I'm wrong, but I just anticipate a lot of characters' plotlines being abruptly ended by a senseless death over the course of the next two books.

I am half way through the second book and dont want to write spoilers though most everyone obviously is ahead of me..but man.. in the first book one huge story line just seemed pointless after one persons death.. if it was all done for back ground it could have been done in 20 pages instead of 10 sets of 20 pages.. Anyway..I am enjoying it..but feel pangs of disappointment for what COULD have been. The book seems almost better as a set up for an old fashioned role playing game sometimes..

Vetamur wrote:Ok.. so.. after hearing people talking about these books and tv shows.. I borrowed the books last week and decided to get further behind in my work and read them.

The story is good..but..is it just me but is the writer not all that good? he seems better in the idea than the execution.. and his editor sucks. I cant count how many times Ive read "should of" for "should have".. in a professionally published book!

All the "bad" guys talk the same.. and all the "good" guys talk the same so far..

Im entertained..but .. the books could be so much better..

Yeah, I'm with you on this. I'm really enjoying the story, but then these turns of phrase or glitches in grammar appear and take me out of it a little bit. I'm probably at about the same point you are, and I'll say that Martin's concept is super entertaining (at least to me), but the execution is a little lacking.

The worst thing are his sexual descriptions. Saying that they were written with a 13 year old's sensibilities is generous. The story is great, but if most of it's pilfered from the War of the Roses, isn't it?

You guys are too smart for your own good.

VETAMUR, THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS POST.

Yes, all caps was warranted. I was trying not to fall asleep reading the first book of the series when I tried it years ago. He's NOT a good writer, in my opinion. That doesn't mean he might not have a great story to tell, but he's definitely a weak writer at best, in my opinion.

I got flayed when I mentioned this in a Game of Thrones TV show thread like a year ago. It's still to this day the only book I've ever stopped reading and didn't finish. In my whole life. I got 2/3rds of the way through or so and just gave it up.

I only started reading really about 2 and a half years ago, and I've read fantasy & sci-fi almost exclusively. I looked up some "best of" lists and just started going down the line (trying to complete series and throwing in some Star Wars here and there). I've read some great stories and some stinkers. To me, Ice & Fire was by far the most gripping story of them all. I've noticed editing/grammatical errors in a lot of these books here and there, Ice & Fire didn't seem to stand out to me but I could easily just not have noticed it.

Only book I gave up on was Steve Erickson's Gardens of The Moon. Couldn't stand it, and it was toward the top of a lot of these lists.

Its entertaining and a great story. i'm in the process of reading the series for the 2nd time (currently on the 3rd book) and none of those things bother me at all. I prefer just to enjoy adn not overanalyze.

Its my favorite book series. Followed closely by the Dark Tower.

Sarlacc83 wrote:The worst thing are his sexual descriptions. Saying that they were written with a 13 year old's sensibilities is generous. The story is great, but if most of it's pilfered from the War of the Roses, isn't it?

Yeah, this. Completely unnecessary sexual imagery. Gratuitous and not essential to the overall feel of the story, either. I'm not necessarily offended by the vulgarity, but just don't see the need for it. I felt the same way with some of King's works, too. It's like these writers just can't wait to slip some graphic sexuality into their books.

I am a huge fan of the books, and I think he's a fantastic writer, but that doesn't really matter.
I call bullshit on the "should of" bit. I have the book in PDF and never once are the words "should" and "of" printed in sequence. Maybe you were just trying to think of an example and came up with a bad one, but I don't know. I guess it's possible you have an older edit of the book than my PDF as well...who knows.
And Roland...seriously...a Stephen King fan saying Martin is a bad writer? Yikes...That's like a 49ers fan saying the Seahawks quarterback is a douche.

Call bullshit all you want, I ran across it again last night. I will take a pic next time I come across it.

Damn it, damn it, damn it! Just when I was about to start reading that series you have to go off and ruin it for me by saying it's full of some of my worst literary and grammatical pet peeves.

Read it.

I read it. Yeah, he never says in 5 words what he can say in 100. I found myself skimming, and would have to put it down until I could pay more attention.

"He never says in 5 words what he can say in 100." - that is another thing I have little time for. I am by nature a rather wordy author, and cut back severely in edits. I actually love editing more than writing, which is weird. To me, there's nothing cooler than a whole picture painted in just a few words. The authors who can do this successfully are truly great authors.

I'm afraid I'd spend the entire time reading mentally editing out all the superfluous wordage.

Sometimes I forget that other people disliking something I like changes nothing in my life. Nevermind. Don't read it.

I've read about 40 fantasy/sci-fi novels over the last couple years and many of them probably longer than they needed to be. I did not find this to be the case with Martin. They're long but they move well imo.

I'm disappointed reading this thread. Game of Thrones was literally (or figuratively) next on my "read then watch" list. I have a very hard time with any fiction as it is, so, I kind of need it to be stellar.

I'll be monitoring this situation closely.

I am trying the audiobook version of the newest one and its not working for me......I just cannot pay enough attention while driving and the old guy doing the womens voices bugs me. I will wait for it to come out on paperback I suppose

pehawk wrote:I'm disappointed reading this thread. Game of Thrones was literally (or figuratively) next on my "read then watch" list. I have a very hard time with any fiction as it is, so, I kind of need it to be stellar.

I'll be monitoring this situation closely.

It is stellar. I think a lot of people are just going in with such high expectations that it's impossible to live up to them. If you can avoid that and can get into this type of a story then I think you'll love them.

m0ng0 wrote:I am trying the audiobook version of the newest one and its not working for me......I just cannot pay enough attention while driving and the old guy doing the womens voices bugs me. I will wait for it to come out on paperback I suppose

Audiobook? I don't think there's a book in existence that could keep my attention being read to me. I need to see the words.

Great books. Was never once bored. Never noticed any "bad writing". Amazing story.

Don't analyze. Enjoy.

Zebulon Dak wrote:

m0ng0 wrote:I am trying the audiobook version of the newest one and its not working for me......I just cannot pay enough attention while driving and the old guy doing the womens voices bugs me. I will wait for it to come out on paperback I suppose

Audiobook? I don't think there's a book in existence that could keep my attention being read to me. I need to see the words.

yeah ya gotta love the wife and good intentions ripping stuff from the library and she went to the trouble of burning all 20 or so discs

It sounds on par with a graphic novel; i.e. you can let yourself drift a bit when reading it? If that's the case, cool. Great for days like today; read while half paying attention to sports on TV.

pehawk wrote:It sounds on par with a graphic novel; i.e. you can let yourself drift a bit when reading it? If that's the case, cool. Great for days like today; read while half paying attention to sports on TV.

I dunno. Maybe. For me it was a series I didn't want to put down and could lose myself in it. And I didn't want it to end. I tried to read other books in between so I could drag the series out as long as possible, but I just couldn't do it. I smashed through faster than any other 5 books I've read.

Also, anybody who thinks he's long winded or uses too many words is probably not much of a fantasy fan because as those go he's not even close to the worst offender I've run across.

Aight, I'm gonna download it. It'll start it on the nightstand rotation, if it drifts, it moves to coffee table land.

Zebulon Dak wrote:Also, anybody who thinks he's long winded or uses too many words is probably not much of a fantasy fan because as those go he's not even close to the worst offender I've run across.

That's a sore point with me. Science fiction and fantasy are known for running longer than average because of the world building involved with the genres. There simply needs to be a bit extra to explain the fantastical worlds portrayed in those genres to allow the story to develop in the remaining allotment of words. Novels (very generally) run 70,000 to 90,000 words. Science fiction and fantasy typically run 80,000 to 120,000 words, and in some cases quite a bit longer. And while folks like Stephen King and GRRM himself tend to run toward the long-winded side of things, there's a limit on it. There's a boundary where long-winded becomes too damn long. And that's where the reader loses interest, no matter the accolades of the writer.

So how does GoT compaire to the WoT. Please only those who have read both, reply.

Side story, I went through the first 4 books of the WoT in 4 days while living in Hong Kong, no joke. Loved the story and all, hence my long time screen name.

I have only ever watchd the TV show of GoT. That being said, if its as good, or better then I will for sure pick up the books.

Also I got bored with the WoT while reading Winters Heart, but I hear it gets better from there on.

I've read both. I read books 1-9 of WoT and needed something else to read while I waited for book 10 to come out. I read online that if you like WoT, you'll love ASOIAF...well, truer words were never spoken, as far as I am concerned.
A lot of Wheel of Time was boring and some of the writing was eye-rollingly bad, but there were some great concepts in there.
Ice and Fire is quite different. Much less fantastical, in that there are no wandering wizards shooting fireballs and the like. Magic exists, to an extent, but it is not overt. The vast majority of the populace lives their whole life without seeing or even believing in any sort of magic, beyond religion.
Anyway, I could go on for days about the Martin books, but I won't. I will simply say that if you like the show, I can't imagine you not liking the books far far more.

Ice & Fire is >>>>>>> than WoT. I honestly think Robert Jordan was a better writer than GRRM. His words were more poetic. He tended to be pretty long winded, but his words were just fun to read. But as far as content, storytelling, character building, Ice & Fire is by far the better tale. Everything else LargentFan said is pretty spot on.

pehawk wrote:Aight, I'm gonna download it. It'll start it on the nightstand rotation, if it drifts, it moves to coffee table land.

Pe, it's a good read, don't take my complaint as dislike. The lack of moral compass in almost all the characters is interesting, it's just that the author's style is a cross between Quentin Tarantino and Charles Dickens.

I have a cross of Tarintino and Dickens in my pants.

Seahawk Sailor wrote:And while folks like Stephen King and GRRM himself tend to run toward the long-winded side of things, there's a limit on it. There's a boundary where long-winded becomes too damn long.

Can't say I've ever noticed that limit in anything from King except Lisey's Story and The Tommyknockers, but King freely admitted he was coked out of his gourd and drunk to boot while writing The Tommyknockers, so it's like, whatever. Martin, however, waited WAY too long before progressing with the first Game of Thrones book, IMO. I'm not trying to avoid blaming King, or anything; doesn't matter if a writer's all jacked up on something or not, if he puts out a steaming pile of something, it's a steaming pile regardless. I may have to give Game of Thrones a try again, but it remains the only book I've ever started that I didn't finish.

RolandDeschain wrote:

Seahawk Sailor wrote:And while folks like Stephen King and GRRM himself tend to run toward the long-winded side of things, there's a limit on it. There's a boundary where long-winded becomes too damn long.

Can't say I've ever noticed that limit in anything from King except Lisey's Story and The Tommyknockers, but King freely admitted he was coked out of his gourd and drunk to boot while writing The Tommyknockers, so it's like, whatever. Martin, however, waited WAY too long before progressing with the first Game of Thrones book, IMO. I'm not trying to avoid blaming King, or anything; doesn't matter if a writer's all jacked up on something or not, if he puts out a steaming pile of something, it's a steaming pile regardless. I may have to give Game of Thrones a try again, but it remains the only book I've ever started that I didn't finish.

The one book you didn't finish is one of the best books I've ever read. Give it another chance.

Zebulon Dak wrote:Ice & Fire is >>>>>>> than WoT. I honestly think Robert Jordan was a better writer than GRRM. His words were more poetic. He tended to be pretty long winded, but his words were just fun to read. But as far as content, storytelling, character building, Ice & Fire is by far the better tale. Everything else LargentFan said is pretty spot on.

Well shit. You keep popping holes in my ambitions to read GRRM. I've seen Robert Jordan criticized plenty for cardboard characters (especially his female charaters), and taking way, way to long at saying what he could have said far more succinctly. And I've heard the last book (written after his death) improved the series tremendously.

Seahawk Sailor wrote:

Zebulon Dak wrote:Ice & Fire is >>>>>>> than WoT. I honestly think Robert Jordan was a better writer than GRRM. His words were more poetic. He tended to be pretty long winded, but his words were just fun to read. But as far as content, storytelling, character building, Ice & Fire is by far the better tale. Everything else LargentFan said is pretty spot on.

Well shit. You keep popping holes in my ambitions to read GRRM. I've seen Robert Jordan criticized plenty for cardboard characters (especially his female charaters), and taking way, way to long at saying what he could have said far more succinctly. And I've heard the last book (written after his death) improved the series tremendously.

???

Zebulon Dak wrote:Ice & Fire is >>>>>>> than WoT ... as far as content, storytelling, character building, Ice & Fire is by far the better tale.

There's reasons I stopped reading WoT after book 5 and there's reasons I'd use a cryogenic sleeper until the next Ice & Fire book if it wasn't for the Seahawks.

Zebulon Dak wrote:???

The reason is because you said Jordan was much better than GRRM, and I've heard Jordan's stuff criticized for exactly what I don't like in literature. Ergo, GRRM may be worse than what I already don't like.

I sound like a lit snob here, which isn't my intention at all. Just would rather find a story I can't put down, and haven't found that in a while.

A song of ice and fire is my favorite series. I'm reading it right now for the second time, in the third book. I've not noticed those errors, but maybe its because english is not my first language (and I prefer reading it in english than in the spanish version).

I''ve never read a book in that POV style, and I found it very entertaining. Each main character has his/her personality well defined, and I've found myself caring for my favorite ones, like Tyrion, Davos, Dany and some others.

The first and second books are the "weakest" in the opinion of the majority of the fans, compared to the rest. The third one (A storm of swords) is the best one.

And is precisely the twists in the story that keep me hooked, there's a lot of "what the hell" moments that I love. And in this second time I find telling myself "Oohhhh that's why that happened ..."


My favorite fiction saga used to be Dune... sorry Frank, now your saga is a close second.

Seahawk Sailor wrote:

Zebulon Dak wrote:???

The reason is because you said Jordan was much better than GRRM, and I've heard Jordan's stuff criticized for exactly what I don't like in literature. Ergo, GRRM may be worse than what I already don't like.

I sound like a lit snob here, which isn't my intention at all. Just would rather find a story I can't put down, and haven't found that in a while.

I didn't say much better, just better. I think he was better with words, in the poetic sense. But he was very long winded and GRRM is not. GRRM built better characters & told a far more believable, gripping story.

I think this series has been talked up so much that, like a lot of people, you're looking for reasons to not like it, and if you go into it with that mindset then you're probably going to find reasons not to like it. If you can put all the expectations aside I'd be willing to bet you'll enjoy it quite a bit.

I always look for reasons to like something, rather than reasons not to like something. And I'll have to check out both series. They have been on my list. I just get skeptical too quickly, I suppose.

Zebulon Dak wrote:Ice & Fire is >>>>>>> than WoT. I honestly think Robert Jordan was a better writer than GRRM. His words were more poetic. He tended to be pretty long winded, but his words were just fun to read. But as far as content, storytelling, character building, Ice & Fire is by far the better tale. Everything else LargentFan said is pretty spot on.

Agree with this entirely. Jordan was technically a better writer. Martin's a better storyteller, and his story is far better than WoT.

I guess I don't really understand what makes someone a better writer.
Martin's story is better, his characters are better, he tells the story more concisely, his story is deeper and more realistic. His world is more authentic. There are tons of important and interesting subplots.
Robert Jordan is good at making you feel the passage of time. If a trip takes a month, he makes it feel like it took a month to read that trip. His story is extremely predictable and his characters are sometimes laughably bad. Basically every woman in his books is the same as every other woman. A bitch who treats everyone around her like crap and acts like her doodoo smells like roses yet none of the men around her will dig a hole and throw her in it like she deserves. I am fairly certain that Jordan(Rigney) wrote half of his book with his pants around his ankles. There is no sex in the books really, but I lost count of all of the times where a woman just had to be naked in front of a bunch of strangers and she was so embarrassed and ashamed. Hey, it's tradition to whip out our tits to prove we're women, let's do it! Hey, we don't have a lot of water, so let's all get naked and hang out in a tent together, no big deal. Hey, I have to go to this city in the desert to prove I'm smart and strong, I'll walk there naked! There are also several veiled BDSM bits that get quite tedious.
Martin has plenty of sex in his series, but for the most part, it actually serves as an important part of the story. There are a few exceptions, but no one is perfect.
Ugh, I get fired up about these books. I am coming off a bit too harsh on the Wheel of Time series, but it does have some really terrible moments. Overall, it's a solid story, though it is predictable.
I look at Martin's work with a little bit of a rose-colored glasses complex, and I acknowledge that, but I can't think of a single moment in the books where I rolled my eyes at the lameness. Mostly, it just captivates me. There are so many mysteries and subplots to think about. The story is far less predictable than anything else I have ever read. Many of the surprises have been spoiled, seeing as the books have been out for years, but it's still an amazing story.
If you want a quick and easy taste of his style and the world his stories take place in, check out the short story called The Hedge Knight. It takes place in the same world, but roughly 100 years earlier. Much simpler story as well, seeing as there are only two characters really.

How many times did I read "she folded her arms beneath her breasts"? I lost count.

I'm in no position to claim anybody is better at writing than anybody else. I'm an idiot. I don't know nothin about nothin.

WoT was a moderately challenging read for me. Partly because it's so slow, but also because I felt like I needed to really focus. He's wordy and very descriptive. Ice & Fire was an easy read for me. There's a lot of characters and it made it a little difficult to remember everything that was going on after the fact, but I felt like I could just breeze through it and never felt like I was missing anything.

I appreciate Jordan as a wordsmith. I think he had a better command over the English language. But I think Martin's a better story teller and had a better story to tell. So I don't know which one that makes the better writer, that's just how I feel about the 2 series.

Perceptions sure to vary from person to person..interesting.

Like I said originally, for me the IDEA is wonderful and Im really enjoying the overall story arc. I enjoy the method even.. shifting character to character. I just think, a la George Lucas, the writer is better at the idea side of the story than the actual telling of the story. And if he reminds me one more time that the Stark house uses the direwolf as its symbol I will choke him on it. Yes, yes..I get it.. Lannisters gold..lions.. Stark..direwolf.. you dont need to remind me EVERY time. After the 400th page of the SECOND book, I can in fact remember that on my own. Oh.. and yes, I get it.. the comet is red. Still. Why dont we just assume its still red, and if it changes..THEN you tell me about it? Deal? No? Thought not.

Some things are quite clever, and I dig this magical but not magical setting.

Vetamur wrote:Perceptions sure to vary from person to person..interesting.

Like I said originally, for me the IDEA is wonderful and Im really enjoying the overall story arc. I enjoy the method even.. shifting character to character. I just think, a la George Lucas, the writer is better at the idea side of the story than the actual telling of the story. And if he reminds me one more time that the Stark house uses the direwolf as its symbol I will choke him on it. Yes, yes..I get it.. Lannisters gold..lions.. Stark..direwolf.. you dont need to remind me EVERY time. After the 400th page of the SECOND book, I can in fact remember that on my own. Oh.. and yes, I get it.. the comet is red. Still. Why dont we just assume its still red, and if it changes..THEN you tell me about it? Deal? No? Thought not.

Some things are quite clever, and I dig this magical but not magical setting.

That's another thing. Seems like the comet was supposed to mean something, but after a while, people just forget about it and it's not mentioned again. No explanation is given and what seemed like an important plot point just sort of fades into obscurity. And get used to the endless heraldry descriptions. probably my least favorite thing about the series, along with the endless descriptions of how everyone is dressed, and the gratuitous sexual descriptions.

Thanks, LargentFan. That was right along the lines of what I've heard regarding those books. And as far as what it takes to be a "better" writer, well that's the $64,000 question. For me, the task is simple: can the author tell the story in such a way that the reader completely tunes him out of mind and sees only the story? Can the writer become so invisible that all that's left is pure story? If so, they've done their job. The second I get jerked back out of a story because I'm suddenly aware of the author's overuse of certain words, or cardboard characters, or Mary Sues, or unbelievable plot twists, or deus ex machina, or whatever, that's the second the writer loses a bit of luster.

Seahawk Sailor wrote:Thanks, LargentFan. That was right along the lines of what I've heard regarding those books. And as far as what it takes to be a "better" writer, well that's the $64,000 question. For me, the task is simple: can the author tell the story in such a way that the reader completely tunes him out of mind and sees only the story? Can the writer become so invisible that all that's left is pure story? If so, they've done their job. The second I get jerked back out of a story because I'm suddenly aware of the author's overuse of certain words, or cardboard characters, or Mary Sues, or unbelievable plot twists, or deus ex machina, or whatever, that's the second the writer loses a bit of luster.

Based off of my experience with both authors, Martin is more guilty of using some trite phrasing or overuse of words. That's why I said he was technically worse than Jordan... his skill with the language itself isn't up to Jordan's standard. But in all of those other examples you mention, Jordan's more guilty.

I like Martin's concept and story FAR better than Jordan's. I like Jordan's skill with language FAR better than Martin's (though he had his irritating moments, too... I mean, how many damn times do I need to read "Nyneave tugged on her braid..."??).

And who tugs on a braid anyway? I kept trying to picture it. Nothin doin.

Zebulon Dak wrote:
Also, anybody who thinks he's long winded or uses too many words is probably not much of a fantasy fan because as those go he's not even close to the worst offender I've run across.

I disagree. You can enjoy fantasy or any genre and be able to spot poor writing. Just because fantasy happens to be
more of a niche or specialty genre doesn't mean it can't be held up to the same standards
as any other work. Martin is not the worst offender ever, for sure, but he is presently the most notable and he is
the one being discussed here and in the thread about the Game of Thrones tv series.

I've been reading fantasy, sci-fi, horror, and on and on since I was a teeny tiny fellow and I can spot 'good' from 'bad'.
Ice and Fire is a very good tale, stretched thin and near the breaking point by its creator.

Someone needs to stand behind him as he writes with this thing: