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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Here is a conversation between Sando and Carroll about the new rule...

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/94838/pete-carroll-helmet-rule-good-for-game

If I understand this correctly, leading with the forehead area is legal, but leading with the top of the head is not. If this is the case, I don't see this being too impactful on the game.


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:32 pm 
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Scottemojo wrote:
It is reported that this would have been called 5 times last year.

I will bet money it gets called more than 5 times this year. The refs will error on this one.



NOT 5 times last year. 5 times in week 17 alone. So that would be roughly 85 calls in a single year.


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:55 pm 
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Fuzzman55 wrote:
HawkAroundTheClock wrote:
For people who keep saying this is "ruining the game" I have to wonder, were my high school coaches ruining the game also when they taught us to never initiate contact with the top of our helmet on either side of the ball?

The way I see it, upset fans seem to have 2 different angles for their rage:

1. The reduction of violent collisions (which includes the 'two-hand touch' and 'pussification' crowds)
2. The in-game officials having too much subjective power

I can see the 2nd, but anyone upset by #1 must also think that youngsters have been taught the wrong way to play football – as it pertains to the crown of the helmet – since at least the 1990s.


They are talking about abandoning kickoffs. They've already almost made return specialists irrelevant by moving up the kickoff spot. How is that not changing the game? What about laying WRs out across the middle? A staple of players like Sam Huff, Ronnie Lott, and Tatum. That's gone. Now the RB, a position that up until this point has been sacrosanct because he's carrying the ball, is being meddled with. Walter Payton would laugh at the absurdity. They are indeed trying to change the game and the way it's played. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you.

Rog is a lawyer and he's administering the league like a lawyer, with the approval of the owners. I have little patience anymore with their ridiculous fake crusade. It's probably why I get so irritated by the continuous stream of rules they insist on pushing through.


Kickoffs have nothing to do with this thread. I never mentioned kickoffs.

And I did not say "change" the game. I was trying to find out the specific reason(s) why some people use the word "ruin" to describe what the crown rule is doing.

When I played in high school I was taught that no contact should be initiated with the crown of the helmet. So if this rule is "ruining" the game because it eliminates the battering effect of the crown of the helmet, then I guess my HS coaches were ruining football right from the get-go for me.

The game has seen many, many changes. This rule, by itself, is so minor as compared to so many other changes in the game's history (plastic helmets, facemasks, goal posts moved off the field, etc.). It's going to be in the application of it, i.e., how often it is called and how accurately it is called, that will determine how much it changes – or even ruins – the game.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:02 pm 
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JSeahawks wrote:
My guess is that we won't even know this rule exists in 90% of games and it will not have any impact and we won't notice a different. Freaking out about nothing.


How many little things cost us the division and a bye week last season? I don't think I'll soon get over that delay of game in the 49ers-Rams game. I wouldn't make the argument above. Little things can make a huge difference in hyper competitive situations.

As far as the rule, it would be a better rule if it was reviewable. Human error is what worries me, and I think the argument that this might increase injuries has some traction.

It didn't result in a penalty, but remember all the hand wringing over the Golden Tate block in the Dallas game last year? If nothing else, I'd like to tamper down that mindless debate, not exacerbate it. This isn't a good direction for the league to head in, IMO.

I'd support a system where plays are reviewed after games and fines/suspensions might be a consideration (1 game suspensions for flagrant/multiple offenders). That way you are incentivising safe play without inviting blown calls.


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:14 pm 
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I already posted earlier, but this league is starting to become a joke to me. If you can get past the 120-180min of commercials and stoppages and actually get to the 60mins of game time then you are a pro in your own right. It's just getting to point of unwatchable and all the pussy rules and over advertising is starting to make me sick. Unreal.


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Fuzzman55 wrote:

They are talking about abandoning kickoffs. They've already almost made return specialists irrelevant by moving up the kickoff spot. How is that not changing the game? What about laying WRs out across the middle? A staple of players like Sam Huff, Ronnie Lott, and Tatum. That's gone. Now the RB, a position that up until this point has been sacrosanct because he's carrying the ball, is being meddled with. Walter Payton would laugh at the absurdity. They are indeed trying to change the game and the way it's played. If you can't see that I don't know what to tell you.

Rog is a lawyer and he's administering the league like a lawyer, with the approval of the owners. I have little patience anymore with their ridiculous fake crusade. It's probably why I get so irritated by the continuous stream of rules they insist on pushing through.



You are 100% correrct!! Dead on!!


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:22 pm 
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JSeahawks wrote:
My guess is that we won't even know this rule exists in 90% of games and it will not have any impact and we won't notice a different. Freaking out about nothing.

This.

Much ado about nothing, imo. The people most upset probable have no idea about this rule and think "physical play" isn't allowed anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:24 pm 
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el capitan wrote:
All this player safety BS is really starting to piss me off. Nobody forces the players to play, they all choose to because it beats pumping gas or working a checkout at Walmart.
There are so many far more dangerous jobs done by hard working people who never come close to seeing a million dollars in their whole lifetime never mind the tens of millions that some of these nancy boys make.
Another rule change or two similar to this one and it won't be long before teams are regularly racking up more penalty yards than passing yards.

None of this explains to me why you shouldn't care about their health. Nobody deserves to be paralyzed or become demented for your amusement. I worry about the subjectivity of this rule, and I'm not convinced it's going to work in practice, but as a philosophy I'm glad the league is trying to prolong players' careers and lives.


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:42 pm 
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McG wrote:
I already posted earlier, but this league is starting to become a joke to me. If you can get past the 120-180min of commercials and stoppages and actually get to the 60mins of game time then you are a pro in your own right. It's just getting to point of unwatchable and all the pussy rules and over advertising is starting to make me sick. Unreal.


Feel free to stop watching

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Steve Mariucci comments

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/0ap2000000152448/Steve-Mariucci-addresses-new-helmet-hit-rule

And Charles Woodson

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/0ap2000000152158/Woodson-on-new-rules-free-agency?continuous=true

Edit: Mayock doesn't like it:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/0ap2000000152140/Mayock-on-new-rule-We-ve-crossed-a-line

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:39 pm 
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You know what's really stupid? "The NFL went back and looked at week 17 games say they only would have called the penalty 5 or 6 times." Uh...wtf? They were reviewing film, a referee has to call it in real-time and decide "intent."

Once this starts screwing teams over and deciding games, it will be changed, but it will be too late then.

This should be reviewable because the play by MikeRob would have been called a penalty and would have been wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:41 pm 
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lukerguy wrote:
Also, on the Lynch hit vs. Goldson he hits his shoulder & head into him. I would be shocked if that is an illegal hit based upon what I've read and how to interpret it.

As the hit shown in your avatar, Tate gets a fine from the League for leading with the SIDE of his helmet, and we don't have a thing to fuss over?, no Referee mistake there?
That was a bullshit call, going all the way to the top, and NOT being corrected, okay, I trust that the Refs won't make that same mistake again, and again, and again, and again.
Kam's hit on V.D. and again, and again,,,OH, that's right!, he didn't get fined for that, but the 15 yard +++ penalty was still upheld without a review to overturn because it was the Ref that made a MISTAKE ,and NOT Kam.


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:59 pm 
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lukerguy wrote:
Also, on the Lynch hit vs. Goldson he hits his shoulder & head into him. I would be shocked if that is an illegal hit based upon what I've read and how to interpret it.

Like your avatar which was a clean hit it matters how its seen by the zebras in real time. Just like Kam's hit on #85, it was legal but drew 3 flags, tha means 3 refs blew that call on the same play! Instead of making more rules, they need to streamline the rules and simplify the rule book so there is less gray area. Good gawd how I hate Rog Goodell!

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:04 pm 
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So the new rule is essentially taking spearing, which has been illegal for years on the defensive side of the ball, and extending that over to the offense?

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:08 pm 
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Trrrroy wrote:
So the new rule is essentially taking spearing, which has been illegal for years on the defensive side of the ball, and extending that over to the offense?


Yes. But only if its in the open field.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:24 pm 
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JSeahawks wrote:
Trrrroy wrote:
So the new rule is essentially taking spearing, which has been illegal for years on the defensive side of the ball, and extending that over to the offense?


Yes. But only if its in the open field.


HOW UNREASONABLE!!! :sarcasm_off:

Seriously, this rule change is miniscule.

6 pages of posts is 5.5 pages too many.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Trrrroy wrote:
JSeahawks wrote:
Trrrroy wrote:
So the new rule is essentially taking spearing, which has been illegal for years on the defensive side of the ball, and extending that over to the offense?


Yes. But only if its in the open field.


HOW UNREASONABLE!!! :sarcasm_off:

Seriously, this rule change is miniscule.

6 pages of posts is 5.5 pages too many.


Exactly. I guess everything is going so well for the Seahawks this offseason people need something to bitch about.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:42 pm 
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Mike Rob and Marshawn Lynch disgusted by the rule..

Rob said Marshawn even said "I dont wanna play anymore"

Live on Total access right now. Wow.


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Pstark3 wrote:
Mike Rob and Marshawn Lynch disgusted by the rule..

Rob said Marshawn even said "I dont wanna play anymore"

Live on Total access right now. Wow.


I dont think i've ever seen Marshawn lead with the crown of his helmet. I'd be surprised if he drew a single flag next season. In hte open field he usually just uses his stiff arm or runs thru arm tackles.

He did plant his facemask about 8 inches into Goldston's chest though.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:46 pm 
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JSeahawks wrote:
Pstark3 wrote:
Mike Rob and Marshawn Lynch disgusted by the rule..

Rob said Marshawn even said "I dont wanna play anymore"

Live on Total access right now. Wow.


I dont think i've ever seen Marshawn lead with the crown of his helmet. I'd be surprised if he drew a single flag next season.

He did plant his facemask about 8 inches into Goldston's chest though.


Mike Rob said that he was taught his whole life to deliver the blow, and not to accept it, and looking at this new rule, in real time, is gonna be extremely tough for power backs to deliver the blow when the defender is getting low


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Pstark3 wrote:
JSeahawks wrote:
Pstark3 wrote:
Mike Rob and Marshawn Lynch disgusted by the rule..

Rob said Marshawn even said "I dont wanna play anymore"

Live on Total access right now. Wow.


I dont think i've ever seen Marshawn lead with the crown of his helmet. I'd be surprised if he drew a single flag next season.

He did plant his facemask about 8 inches into Goldston's chest though.


Mike Rob said that he was taught his whole life to deliver the blow, and not to accept it, and looking at this new rule, in real time, is gonna be extremely tough for power backs to deliver the blow when the defender is getting low


I bet he was never taught to do it with his head down and lead with the top of his head.

He can deliver the blow and run exactly how he has his whole career. There's nothing saying they can't lower their head to take on contact. Or even lower their head to initiate contact. Just do it with your head up like all football players are taught since middle school.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:55 pm 
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JSeahawks wrote:
Pstark3 wrote:
JSeahawks wrote:


I dont think i've ever seen Marshawn lead with the crown of his helmet. I'd be surprised if he drew a single flag next season.

He did plant his facemask about 8 inches into Goldston's chest though.


Mike Rob said that he was taught his whole life to deliver the blow, and not to accept it, and looking at this new rule, in real time, is gonna be extremely tough for power backs to deliver the blow when the defender is getting low


I bet he was never taught to do it with his head down and lead with the top of his head.

He can deliver the blow and run exactly how he has his whole career. There's nothing saying they can't lower their head to take on contact. Or even lower their head to initiate contact. Just do it with your head up like all football players are taught since middle school.

I understand that, but the problem comes from making these calls in real time. games can be decided way to easily by refs now IMHO


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Pstark3 wrote:
I understand that, but the problem comes from making these calls in real time. games can be decided way to easily by refs now IMHO


I can see that side of the argument, but then we should be complaining about the officials, not about the rule. Its just part of the human part of sports and will always be there.

IMO this rule will be a lot easier to see and call then holding or pass interference. I mean, a guy either leads with the top of his helmet in the open field or he doesnt. Its pretty cut and dry. There are ton of missed or botched holding calls everygame. There are tons of incorrectly called/or not called interference penalties. All in all, i think the impact of this rule will be very, very small on the game and be less then the impact of holding or PI.

As for Marshaun saying he doesnt want to play anymore. I"m guessing once he thinks about his pay checks, and takes the time to understand the rule, he'll get over it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:12 pm 
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This is just the league covering their ass, this will hardly ever get called. Like someone else said, it would have only been called 30 times all year. The only reason it's getting passed is so the league can say "we have rules against that!" if/when someone gets hurt while leading with the crown. It won't be an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:55 am 
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Would the hit Mike Rob delivered to Tim Jennings last year have been penalized? Rob put the crown of his helmet into Jennings shoulder in the open field, trucked that little guy, and broke his shoulder in a great open field play.

We might have lost that game with this rule. Think about that.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:16 am 
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Was he spearing with the helmet?

If so then now days it will be called.

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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:24 am 
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Scottemojo wrote:
Would the hit Mike Rob delivered to Tim Jennings last year have been penalized? Rob put the crown of his helmet into Jennings shoulder in the open field, trucked that little guy, and broke his shoulder in a great open field play.

We might have lost that game with this rule. Think about that.


Yes, that play was there prime highlight on espn.


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:23 am 
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JSeahawks wrote:
I can see that side of the argument, but then we should be complaining about the officials, not about the rule. Its just part of the human part of sports and will always be there.


And because of that, the league should not be passing rules that make even more of the game subject to judgement calls by officials, but that is exactly what they are doing.

I hate to quote Jerome Bettis but I think he hit the nail on the head this morning:

“We’re creating so many plays that are subjective for the referee, that before you know it the referee controls the outcome of the game because these calls can go either way, and then the referees start taking too prominent of a role in deciding the outcome of the game."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/21/jerome-bettis-says-nfls-new-helmet-rule-makes-no-sense/


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 Post subject: Re: well they pass the new rule leading with crown...
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:18 am 
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Just using the "helmet as a weapon" will be called outside of the tackles. It doesn't have to be a helmet to helmet thing, just the RB using his helmet to lower the boom on a guy. Can't wait for the first RB to keep his head up and take a helmet to the jaw.


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