What we do not need

I agree with the OP. a penetrating pass rushing 3-tech is priority numero uno. Whether that's achieved by bringing in a FA, trading for a vet, or drafting one early in the draft, I neither know nor care. I just know it's a priority because the entire personality of our defense changed when we lost Jason Jones. And that sucks.

The only way we need to even start thinking about getting a starting Leo is if the Clem we get back in September is significantly less than the Clem we had back in December. What we DO need though is adequate depth at Leo (or to figure out a means to better mobilize what we've got because Irvin and Scruggs are good football players). That being said though, I think Irvin will figure it out. In that Atlanta game, he looked like he was trying extra hard not to screw up. That's a recipe for mediocrity when you play DE like Bruce does. He needs to be able to play balls out with only one objective (kill the guy with the ball), and I think Gus (and his doppleganger Todd Wash) had him thinking about too many things. I think Dan Quinn is going to work wonders with Bruce Irvin, and the whole D-line.

Hey, I agree we need a pass rushing 3 tech badly. When I say we need another LEO, I am not saying a first round pick. But good pass rush 3 techs are damn rare, and if a impactful LEO player is there, grab him. In fact, I would lay odds that we are way more likely to go DE than DT in the first round.

This defense begins, and damn near ends with the ability to stop the run. And as long as Pete is here, that will be the case. Irvin might get better against the run, but any of you hanging his struggles with the run on being a rookie are basing your hopes for next year on something you can't prove, namely the fact that he will get better. Just like anybody thinking Quinn will be an improvement on Bradley is basing their hopes on something they can't prove.

Irvin has never in his life played a read and react position. Clemons was a linebacker in college. There is not a doubt in my mind that for that reason, and many more, Irvin is not, and will not be ready to simply replace Clemons adequately next year.

Not getting another LEO would be a betrayal of comPete.

Agree we need another LEO . . . But cannot fathom that we are drafting one early or signing one big.

I agree with the OP on this. The lack of pressure from anywhere else demonstrsted the need for help in the middle, something that we lacked all season long. You can't take the Atlanta game as a definition of Irvins abilities. According to Brock, Pete said Bruce hit the rookie wall, and that's to be expected after 17 games. Irvin had never before in his life been exposed to that much playing time our that kind of environment. Looking back at that game, I wonder how Bruce would have fared had the rest of the d line gotten pressure. Imaho, w need Kawaan Short, but I would be hard pressed to pass on Corey Lemonier were he available

I'm glad someone finally posted this. It was mind boggling seeing so many posts about needing to draft or bring in a big name FA for the LEO position. DO we want to always have guys coming in that could fit that role and give Irvin some competition? Yeah. But that's not something you throw a 1st or 2nd round pick out for. I agree with the others that a good 3-tech would go a long ways for this defense and it would help the other guys be more productive because the QB can't just step forward to avoid their rush on the ends every time.

It just seems people have already given up on Irvin which is hilarious. He was the best rookie pass rusher last year. He's going to get stronger and better. Clemons was known as a very poor run stopper years into his career before being coached up.

I absolutely hate the myth that Irvin is too small too. Irvin is freaking 9 pounds less than Clemons. That's it. 9 Pounds. If 9 Pounds is the difference between ideal and being too small then just give him a couple big mac meals lol. Nah but seriously, he'll gain more than 9 pounds this off-season. He's got the frame to carry plenty more weight if they want him to. So Irvin is to small to play the leo every down = Myth!

What makes people believe that Clemons will be back? He tore his knee in January, there's no way a 31 year old is coming back from that to be productive piece this year. Rarely happens.

We need to bring in whoever can relieve that pressure off from Irvin so he can continue to learn - but we still need to fix the pass rush with or without a new LEO.

tomahawk":mxmerx76 said:

What makes people believe that Clemons will be back? He tore his knee in January, there's no way a 31 year old is coming back from that to be productive piece this year. Rarely happens.

We need to bring in whoever can relieve that pressure off from Irvin so he can continue to learn - but we still need to fix the pass rush with or without a new LEO.

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Huh? There's many players that come back from ACL tears. Especially recently, doctors and medical knowledge have gotten to such that most players come back fine and usually stronger because of all the rehab.

Just a few Notable players to come back and do fine after an ACL tear:
Juliane Peterson (edit: oops sorry his was an Achilles tear)
Jamaal Charles
Adrian Peterson
Jamal Lewis
Edgerrine James
Terry Allen
Casey Hampton (3 ACL reconstructions)

As a matter of fact it's harder to find guys that can't or don't come back from ACL injuries. Clem will be fine. We might not get him back right away and if we don't, why not see what a fresh Irvin can do in a full time Leo role early in the season?

Largent80":2jw7rwns said:

I really don't want to see us draft the same position 2 years in a row with more obvious needs glaring us in the face.

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DE is the teams #1 need IMO. Lack of depth at LEO just ended our season. I think we'll go DT in round 1 though just because you almost have to take one that early this year to get a difference maker. You could probably wait til rounds 2-4 for a backup LEO and be fine. And by backup I really mean "future starter."

Seattle clearly wants at least 2 outside pass rushers (DE) full time. Even if Irvin is a LEO, you'd still need to replace Irvin when he moves over to cover Clemons' departure. So either way, we need a defensive end. Better to be proactive about finding that guy especially when our current LEO turns 32 this year and is coming off an ACL. I'd even argue that we need 3 LEOs at all times just to avoid another Atlanta situation.

McGruff":2omvpm71 said:

Agree we need another LEO . . . But cannot fathom that we are drafting one early or signing one big.

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I don't think we'll see anything in FA. As far as the draft goes, I think Seattle would have to strongly consider LEO in round one if Jarvis Jones or Bjoern Werner are there. I'd be completely fine with them going LEO in round 2 for someone like Lemonier. I know Clemons was a UDFA, but the longer you wait, the lower the odds that you'll get a difference maker. And Seattle doesn't need a career backup- they need to swing for the fences here and hope to find a long term starter in future seasons. And I'm sure they will view this situation exactly like that.

Clemons wasn't the run defender he is now early in his career either.

Atlanta is a terrible excuse to lay the blame on Irvin, it was a DL wide failure due to injury. There's little a rookie 3rd down specialist in his first start matching up against a good left tackle could do, obviously he wasn't going to turn into Michael Strahan.

He needs time to develop into a starter, that's all. You underestimate our coaching staff if you don't think they can polish BI into Clem's role. He needs some serious upgrades or the other players to step up to succeed either way.

Scottemojo":30aaq10t said:

Hey, I agree we need a pass rushing 3 tech badly. When I say we need another LEO, I am not saying a first round pick. But good pass rush 3 techs are damn rare, and if a impactful LEO player is there, grab him. In fact, I would lay odds that we are way more likely to go DE than DT in the first round.

This defense begins, and damn near ends with the ability to stop the run. And as long as Pete is here, that will be the case. Irvin might get better against the run, but any of you hanging his struggles with the run on being a rookie are basing your hopes for next year on something you can't prove, namely the fact that he will get better. Just like anybody thinking Quinn will be an improvement on Bradley is basing their hopes on something they can't prove.

Irvin has never in his life played a read and react position. Clemons was a linebacker in college. There is not a doubt in my mind that for that reason, and many more, Irvin is not, and will not be ready to simply replace Clemons adequately next year.

Not getting another LEO would be a betrayal of comPete.

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I'm not trying to argue that Irvin was not a liability against the run against Atlanta (because he clearly was) but I'm wondering if an upgrade at Will LB might help to compensate for Irvin's shortcoming in that area. If we had a real heady, athletic "Derrick Brooks type*" of Will over there taking out the trash, it would let Irvin play more of a "ballistic missile" "ears pinned back" style of head hunting DE than the read and react type they seemingly wanted him to play last year.

If a DE is the very best player available where we pick in the draft, then I won't be upset if JS pulls the trigger. He knows best and nobody has ever complained about having too many capable pass rushers in the stable. However, I'd almost rather see us trade it for a mid rounder + a high pick next year or take a slight reach on a 3-tech who could possibly address our biggest need. Outside of that DT, I don't see us in need of a big talent injection anywhere else on the roster.


*I say that like Derrick Brookses just grow on trees...

Tebow.

Largent80":1oiqm2jo said:

Tebow.

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This

FlyingGreg":1hklppxi said:

:roll: :?:

I disagree completely. Irvin is not suited for LEO, at least not yet. LEO isn't just pass rushing, it's holding the point of attack and playing the run as well - which Clemons does well. Irvin gets moved out of the play way too easily to fill that role.

He is still a situational pass rush specialist. We can't force him into the role of LEO because we need it.

We definitely need a LEO. The need for a pass rushing DT is mutually exclusive.

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I completely agree with this assessment. I certainly will not rule out the possibility that Irvin will improve, but Irvin did not look like an every down DE in that Atlanta game at all. He was terrible. However, as a pass rush specialist, he has shown that he can absolutely excel. I really would not have a problem if that is all the Irvin ever becomes, but I really think we need another starting caliber LEO for next season.

SacHawk2.0":24rp6vvj said:

Largent80":24rp6vvj said:

Tebow.

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This

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Not this. never this...

kearly":2418o7bh said:

McGruff":2418o7bh said:

Agree we need another LEO . . . But cannot fathom that we are drafting one early or signing one big.

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I don't think we'll see anything in FA. As far as the draft goes, I think Seattle would have to strongly consider LEO in round one if Jarvis Jones or Bjoern Werner are there. I'd be completely fine with them going LEO in round 2 for someone like Lemonier. I know Clemons was a UDFA, but the longer you wait, the lower the odds that you'll get a difference maker. And Seattle doesn't need a career backup- they need to swing for the fences here and hope to find a long term starter in future seasons. And I'm sure they will view this situation exactly like that.

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Pretty sure they a confident their long term starter is already on the roster . . . Irvin .

Irvin has MILES to go before he starts for a good defense. You can't sit back and diagnose a play in the NFL. If you were to time each play he played that wasn't a third-and-long from the time the ball was snapped until the time he reacted to what was happening in front of him, he would be on the short list of longest times by any DE in the NFL.

Even if you pencil him in as a productive every down player, you still have a huge need. Considering this team has very few holes that need to be addressed, their lack of consistent pass rush last year, and the insane importance of a pass rush in the modern NFL, yes, they need to spend some major resources on the position if they want to maintain their momentum defensively or possibly take a step forward.

We don't need losses. Those are bad. Especially in the playoffs. We tried that last year and it didn't work.

Largent80":28g5ftey said:

Holy shit folks, We have larger needs than a LEO.

I really don't want to see us draft the same position 2 years in a row with more obvious needs glaring us in the face.

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Saying it again doesn't make any less INCORRECT.

bestfightstory":1nhgn3e9 said:

Largent80":1nhgn3e9 said:

Holy shit folks, We have larger needs than a LEO.

I really don't want to see us draft the same position 2 years in a row with more obvious needs glaring us in the face.

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Saying it again doesn't make any less INCORRECT.

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You are just jealous that I beat you to it.