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 Post subject: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:31 am 
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Found this article which speaks about NFL teams asking their scouts to look deeper into any intangibles they can for the upcoming class of QBs to see if there are any Russell Wilson's in their evaluations

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NFL teams aren’t looking for the next great short quarterback. But they are looking for a quarterback with intangibles so powerful that he can overcome whatever he may lack physically, ala the quarterback of the Seattle Seahawks.

In that regard, Wilson is having an impact on how teams are evaluating quarterbacks. Front office men from two teams told me they have been asked to be more in tune to a quarterback’s intangibles this year. "Our front office wants to know who the Russell Wilson is in this group," one high ranking scout said. "Intangibles have become more important because they can overcome everything else."
- See more at: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFP ... Mo0MS.dpuf

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:38 am 
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Good luck, Wilson might just be one of a kind.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:45 am 
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"But really, there is no Russell Wilson in this class of QBs. His intangibles make most quarterbacks look like something is missing."

:th2thumbs:

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:50 am 
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Having watched Wilson play many teams, experts, scouts, gurus are having to do a double take on what they look at in a QB again, Brees and Wilson now both successful currently and having made everyone wipe egg off their face.

I think Pete and John used the same philosophy that Walsh used when getting Joe Montana, who somehow lasted to the 3rd round as well. They seen what he brought during games, the IT factor and the ability to win, coupled with a study habit and intelligence along with a nobody outworks them and the natural leadership.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:05 am 
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Yeah, I think the whole height thing can be finally laid to rest. 40 years too late for Sonny Sixkiller. IMO, racism is what started the whole Myth of Height thing in the first place. I remember thinking that nobody had the IT factor more than Sonny Sixkiller. Be he was a native american and those were different times back then. So there had to be some "excuse" why he couldn't be a starting QB in the whites only QB job of the NFL. From that time forward, height was a factor in evaluating QB's. Then came Warren Moon and they couldn't have a black QB. So the great Warren Moon ended up in the CFL where he lit it up until finally someone was willing to give him a shot in the NFL because the color barrier had finally been broken.

QB Height is a legacy of those times.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:14 am 
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SalishHawkFan wrote:
Yeah, I think the whole height thing can be finally laid to rest. 40 years too late for Sonny Sixkiller.


Sonny was amazing. Some of the most entertaining college football I've ever seen in person. I do believe HE was too short for the pros though. As athletic as he was...especially in tight spots... I don't remember him being all that fast. He made some incredible passes while in the arms of a tackler... I don't know if he could have pulled off his magic in the arms of NFL DE's and linebackers.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:18 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:18 am 
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SalishHawkFan wrote:
Yeah, I think the whole height thing can be finally laid to rest. 40 years too late for Sonny Sixkiller. IMO, racism is what started the whole Myth of Height thing in the first place. I remember thinking that nobody had the IT factor more than Sonny Sixkiller. Be he was a native american and those were different times back then. So there had to be some "excuse" why he couldn't be a starting QB in the whites only QB job of the NFL. From that time forward, height was a factor in evaluating QB's. Then came Warren Moon and they couldn't have a black QB. So the great Warren Moon ended up in the CFL where he lit it up until finally someone was willing to give him a shot in the NFL because the color barrier had finally been broken.

QB Height is a legacy of those times.


Yeah, if he would have went to a team that passed in that era he had all those qualitys also. Rams was all about the run.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:19 am 
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HUGGY wrote:
SalishHawkFan wrote:
Yeah, I think the whole height thing can be finally laid to rest. 40 years too late for Sonny Sixkiller.


Sonny was amazing. Some of the most entertaining college football I've ever seen in person. I do believe HE was too short for the pros though. .


5'11"

That would be taller than RW.

He took over a 1-9 Husky team and turned them into winners, 6-4, 8-3, 8-3. Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann and Archie Manning were playing college ball and it was Sonny Sixkiller who appeared on Sports Illustrated cover and led the nation in passing yards.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:34 am 
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He would have been in the same ball park as Tarkenton as well, Knox I think was coaching then and we saw how he handled a QB situation here. Sonny was a magnetic personality and a sort of Farve type player as well. Not a Knox kinda guy. That year they also had Hadl as a QB and drafted Jaworski in the second round. Sonny was not drafted but came in as a UDFA. He also happened to play in a time when you had Manning,Plunkett, and Thiesman getting a lot of attention.

Here's something that should make Husky fans smile.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:44 am 
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I hope the other teams are concentrating too much on 'intangibles'. Because as much as an incredible attitude and work rate have aided Wilson, it's not what makes him truly effective. He makes up for a lack of size with a fantastic release point, superb poise in and out of the pocket. He's got great arm talent and big hands. He's incredibly elusive and an underrated runner in the open field. He carries the ball like a running back and knows when to get out of a play by dipping out of bounds or sliding. He still overthrows at times but he also has great touch and feel for the football. We could list more things. Wilson gets the fact he needs to find throwing lanes, exploit opportunities.

So by all means look for intangibles, NFL. But the reason Wilson succeeds is because he's pretty damn exceptional in every way apart from height. That includes work rate and preparation, sure. But he's also immense in terms of physical talent and natural skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:04 pm 
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theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
I hope the other teams are concentrating too much on 'intangibles'. Because as much as an incredible attitude and work rate have aided Wilson, it's not what makes him truly effective. He makes up for a lack of size with a fantastic release point, superb poise in and out of the pocket. He's got great arm talent and big hands. He's incredibly elusive and an underrated runner in the open field. He carries the ball like a running back and knows when to get out of a play by dipping out of bounds or sliding. He still overthrows at times but he also has great touch and feel for the football. We could list more things. Wilson gets the fact he needs to find throwing lanes, exploit opportunities.

So by all means look for intangibles, NFL. But the reason Wilson succeeds is because he's pretty damn exceptional in every way apart from height. That includes work rate and preparation, sure. But he's also immense in terms of physical talent and natural skill.


Agreed. Wilson is not just an "intangibles" QB, they are just so refined it's getting all the attention now.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:09 pm 
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Just even more proof that John Schneider is ahead of the rest of the pack.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:16 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:40 pm 
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The article does say you need physical gifts, but that the intangibles on a gifted athlete lacking elite arm strength or speed lets say should not disqualify them. Where the overall physical freak not having them can be complete failures at the NFL level.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:45 pm 
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SalishHawkFan wrote:
HUGGY wrote:
SalishHawkFan wrote:
Yeah, I think the whole height thing can be finally laid to rest. 40 years too late for Sonny Sixkiller.


Sonny was amazing. Some of the most entertaining college football I've ever seen in person. I do believe HE was too short for the pros though. .


5'11"

That would be taller than RW.

He took over a 1-9 Husky team and turned them into winners, 6-4, 8-3, 8-3. Jim Plunkett, Joe Theismann and Archie Manning were playing college ball and it was Sonny Sixkiller who appeared on Sports Illustrated cover and led the nation in passing yards.


Sixkiller is certainly not 5' 11". I've stood next to him on several occasions. He's 5' 9" tops.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:14 pm 
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FlyingGreg wrote:
"But really, there is no Russell Wilson in this class of QBs. His intangibles make most quarterbacks look like something is missing."

:th2thumbs:


And boom goes the dynamite! :thirishdrinkers:

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:20 pm 
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SalishHawkFan wrote:
Yeah, I think the whole height thing can be finally laid to rest. 40 years too late for Sonny Sixkiller. IMO, racism is what started the whole Myth of Height thing in the first place. I remember thinking that nobody had the IT factor more than Sonny Sixkiller. Be he was a native american and those were different times back then. So there had to be some "excuse" why he couldn't be a starting QB in the whites only QB job of the NFL. From that time forward, height was a factor in evaluating QB's. Then came Warren Moon and they couldn't have a black QB. So the great Warren Moon ended up in the CFL where he lit it up until finally someone was willing to give him a shot in the NFL because the color barrier had finally been broken.

QB Height is a legacy of those times.


What could racism possibly have to do with the height thing. Fran Tarkenton was six feet and he's in the Hall of Fame. And, the shortest guy to have any success as a QB lately has been another white guy - Flutie. No, it's not racism. It's history. The reason NFL scouts are hesitant to back shorter QB's is because very few of them excel in the NFL. Here's a quote from a Fox Sports story questioning the decision to go with Wilson before last season:

"Since 1952, only two quarterbacks as short or shorter than Wilson have excelled in the NFL: Eddie LeBaron, a 5-7 quarterback who played in Washington and Dallas from 1952-63; and Doug Flutie, the 5-9 3/4-inch sparkplug who played for four NFL teams between 1986 and 2005."

This is part of what makes Russell Wilson so amazing and I think it's why the sports media is so into him and he's such a popular figure. America loves to see someone overcome the odds.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:23 pm 
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I hate to break it to the NFL, but there is only one Russell Wilson and Seattle has him. Eat your hear out!

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Maybe teams should use the Lewin forecast for future reference. Russell Wilson scored higher than any QB by their measures. Little did they know that their "projection model" would prove to be correct. Russell Wilson's "absurdly high" forecast will only be dwarfed by Russell Wilson's actual career. They put an asterisk by him only because he was too short and not expected to be drafted in the first three rounds of the draft.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/nfl-dr ... ecast-2012


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:17 pm 
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The fact that Russell Wilson is hanging out with guys like Matt Hasselbeck, and Golden Tate in his leisure time, tells me that he's a junkie for anything and everything related to football.
It's like he has an insatible appetite for finding and locking down information to better understand the intricacies of what makes other quarterbacks succeed, or fail, as well as to what bad habits to avoid like, locking onto a Receiver with his eyes, not working on his footwork Etc.
I believe that his best is yet to come, and with continuety as the leader, he's going to astonish even people that are his most ardent detractors.
When he says that he wants to be "The Best", it's not just a phrase that he's just throwing out there, this kid really means it.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
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Russell Wislon is so special you won't find a guy like him for a long long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:49 pm 
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I am starting to wonder if I am smarter than most NFL GMs, and truthfully I am not that smart. Good for them for not overlooking intangibles, but intangibles aren't the reason Wilson proved his height didn't matter. Wilson has short QB skills. So if you want a short QB that can play, check to see if he has those short QB skills or not. Can he navigate passing lanes? Does he have a high release point? Did he succeed behind a tall offensive line? Did he avoid injury despite his stature?

Really NFL GMs, it's not that hard to figure this stuff out.

Of course, there isn't a Russell Wilson out there this year. How many years passed between Tom Brady and Russell Wilson being drafted? A lot. I think you are looking at a situation that might occur once a decade, at most.

But the next time there truly is another Russell Wilson, I'll tell you right now how it is that you find him. Look for the QB that is obviously great but is being completely disregarded for just one reason, then thoroughly investigate that reason to see if it holds up. Small-mindedness and a fear of breaking with conventional wisdom by evaluators is what made Wilson and Brady late round steals. So always be looking for that guy that deserves more credit than he deserves, and you'll eventually find him. You might have to wait awhile, though.


Last edited by kearly on Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:52 pm 
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I have to say though, it is pretty badass how our coach/GM/QB have already had such a profound impact on the league. Everyone in the know is in awe of the Seahawks right now. Everyone not in the know, too.


Last edited by kearly on Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
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kearly wrote:
I have to say though, it is pretty badass how our coach/GM/QB have already had such a profound impact on the league. Everyone in the know is in awe of the Seahawks right now.


Nobody wants Egypt to best the rest of the league, the coach who couldn't win at the Professional level has raised the bar with a new defensive approach, has taken a QB that others were looking at as a career back up and gave him a chance and is a budding Superstar, taken cast offs such as Lynch and Clemons and Brock Branch and Jones and turned them into leaders or impact players.

We have shaken the foundations of the NFL powers by beating N.E., G.B, Dallas. They don't want Blue and Green being the team that sets a precedence or that others have to play catch up to.

We have been recognised and our front office and coaches hired in promenent positions hoping to replicate what we done.

The one thing that they can't do is motivate and have the vision and ability to see something in players that John and Pete do together.

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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:22 pm 
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Honestly, I think a lot of the media bias against us is really just a biproduct of having never won a Superbowl. I think outside of just a few special seasons, we've always been in the same category as the Cardinals, Browns, Lions, etc. In terms of national perception.

If Seattle wins a couple of championships and establishes a legacy, I think the treatment in the media will be a lot different. The reason that the Packers, Steelers, Cowboys, and 49ers are all so beloved is because in the past they were among the biggest winners in the history of the sport. If Wilson gets us 3-4 championships, I think we become part of that club. Maybe the president of that club, considering how much of a darling the team is at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:15 am 
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kearly wrote:
I am starting to wonder if I am smarter than most NFL GMs, and truthfully I am not that smart. Good for them for not overlooking intangibles, but intangibles aren't the reason Wilson proved his height didn't matter. Wilson has short QB skills. So if you want a short QB that can play, check to see if he has those short QB skills or not. Can he navigate passing lanes? Does he have a high release point? Did he succeed behind a tall offensive line? Did he avoid injury despite his stature?

Really NFL GMs, it's not that hard to figure this stuff out.

Of course, there isn't a Russell Wilson out there this year. How many years passed between Tom Brady and Russell Wilson being drafted? A lot. I think you are looking at a situation that might occur once a decade, at most.

But the next time there truly is another Russell Wilson, I'll tell you right now how it is that you find him. Look for the QB that is obviously great but is being completely disregarded for just one reason, then thoroughly investigate that reason to see if it holds up. Small-mindedness and a fear of breaking with conventional wisdom by evaluators is what made Wilson and Brady late round steals. So always be looking for that guy that deserves more credit than he deserves, and you'll eventually find him. You might have to wait awhile, though.


Interesting that it is impossible to find any video on Tom Brady's rookie season.

5.2 40 in combine. Impressive! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqpx2SVx0vA


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:46 am 
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Well, don't think there will even be a Tannehill caliber in this draft actually.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:00 am 
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I get what you're saying English, but I think the point of the post is that intangibles can overcome *some* physical defeciencies. The only physical issue with Wilson was his height.

I've been saying it for years, but I think intangibles are the most important single attribute for QBs. Look at all the physical specimens that have washed out (guys like Jamarcus Russell, Vince Young, etc.). Off the charts athleticism and good production in college, but no work ethic. Michael Vick admitted he had a terrible work ethic earlier in his career...probably why he never broke 55% completion percentage for so long.

Now look at all the guys that had, say, weak arms. We had one here in Hasselbeck. Montana was another big one. Guys didn't have a cannon, and weren't physical specimens (Montana was also short) but they had work ethic, leadership, intelligence and a will to win. If you're off the charts on your intangibles you know how to work around a weak arm. Or slow feet (Fouts, Marino, Peyton Manning, Brady etc). Or being short (Brees, Wilson and to an extent Flutie). A guy is humble enough to know his flaws, smart enough to address them, and will grind it out until it gets done. Along the way they find other ways to improve their game to shore up their flaws.

I like what I read about PC and JS. People get hypercritical at this time of year about prospects; everyone wants the perfect guy with the least downside and a high floor that won't bust, so we pick them apart. One recent draft analysis of PC and JS was that they look for what guys CAN do, in their system...instead of what they CAN'T do according to prevalent wisdom. I think in a round about way, that's what this article is saying.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:03 am 
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kearly wrote:
Honestly, I think a lot of the media bias against us is really just a biproduct of having never won a Superbowl. I think outside of just a few special seasons, we've always been in the same category as the Cardinals, Browns, Lions, etc. In terms of national perception.

If Seattle wins a couple of championships and establishes a legacy, I think the treatment in the media will be a lot different. The reason that the Packers, Steelers, Cowboys, and 49ers are all so beloved is because in the past they were among the biggest winners in the history of the sport. If Wilson gets us 3-4 championships, I think we become part of that club. Maybe the president of that club, considering how much of a darling the team is at the moment.

Yeah, much like the Stealers getting ALL benefit of the doubt in XL, wink, wink. :16:


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:43 am 
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Hawks46: "Montana was also short"

Sorry, but Joe Montana is 6'2" and on numerous occasions, it was reported that he could dunk a basketball from a standing start under the basket. He was also a basketball player and was a much better athlete than a lot of people realize.

But, having pointed that out, I totally agree with your basic point. It is the intangibles that usually make a QB great. Montana wasn't great primarily because of his athleticism. He was a player. It was his brain. And Wilson's greatest asset, IMO, is his brain.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:53 am 
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I would love for inept FO's to massively overcorrect after Russell Wilson shook the foundations of conventional thought. Let them start taking bigger risks at QB and perhaps defying conventional wisdom for the sake of defying conventional wisdom, it'll blow up in their faces more often than not. Wilson is a great example of why you shouldn't allow conventional wisdom to be absolute, not why you should abandon conventional thinking. Wilson is just far too special for 'looking for the next' version of him to be a reliable practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:07 pm 
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pinksheets wrote:
I would love for inept FO's to massively overcorrect after Russell Wilson shook the foundations of conventional thought. Let them start taking bigger risks at QB and perhaps defying conventional wisdom for the sake of defying conventional wisdom, it'll blow up in their faces more often than not. Wilson is a great example of why you shouldn't allow conventional wisdom to be absolute, not why you should abandon conventional thinking. Wilson is just far too special for 'looking for the next' version of him to be a reliable practice.


Next thing ya know Russell Wilson look-alikes will start showing up on American Idol... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:32 pm 
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rideaducati wrote:
Maybe teams should use the Lewin forecast for future reference. Russell Wilson scored higher than any QB by their measures. Little did they know that their "projection model" would prove to be correct. Russell Wilson's "absurdly high" forecast will only be dwarfed by Russell Wilson's actual career. They put an asterisk by him only because he was too short and not expected to be drafted in the first three rounds of the draft.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/nfl-dr ... ecast-2012


It is actually kind of funny when you misrepresent the article that you are linking too :)

The first and foremost reason for the article was that Russell changed teams. He changed from one offense to a different offense and that led to the huge jump between his junior and senior year which is the basis for their rankings. It was a valid concern based on this.

Then he also had the asterik because he wasn't exepcted to be drafted in the first three rounds because of his height.


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 Post subject: Re: Article: Wilson affecting QB evaluations
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:37 pm 
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