Some random thoughts on Monday's combine so far

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  • (I'll probably update with more thoughts as the day goes on).

    Athleticism is about more than 40 times. So far I'm not seeing any "wow" speedsters at DE, but that's pretty much what was expected.

    The best runner by far is Dion Jordan, and regardless of how I view him (I see him as a Julian Peterson type SAM 4-3 OLB more than a traditional DE), I think he'll probably go top 10, and I'm sure Pete Carroll would shit his pants if he could get him.

    There are a lot of solid athletes out there, but the three that exceeded my expectations the most were Montari Hughes, Margus Hunt, and Corey Lemonier (pronounced "lemonwa" apparently).

    I didn't see Hughes forty time, but in drills he moved with the fluidity of a defensive end. He also looked very athletic physically, there was no gut, he's a slim 329. I haven't watched his tape yet, but in the drills he looked like a better athlete than Floyd, which is saying something. I'll definitely have to start working through his game compilations because Seattle loves athletes and Hughes could be a very real candidate not only at DT but also for the Red Bryant job.

    Margus Hunt was the most natural athlete. He looked like an Olympian compared to the rest. I know he's not a football player on tape and he's got a ton of problems, but he's killed this combine, and rekindled my interest in him. Fluid runner, really smooth and fast in change of direction, very strong upper body (38 bench press) and it showed in drills. Runs more gracefully than anyone else which is really surprising given his size. I probably wouldn't take him before the 5th or 6th still, but even if Seattle took him in the 2nd, I'd consider it an exciting pick because his potential is higher than Ansah's, IMO.

    Best LEO candidate hands down of this group was Corey Lemonier. His 4.60 forty doesn't blow you away, but he was lightning quick in drills, easily the quickest of them all. I think Seattle values quickness and change of direction skills over pure speed, and if I'm right, Lemonier could be very high on the radar. Very natural LEO.

    I also thought Armonty Bryant impressed, and it was watching him perform to no hype while guys like Ansah and Floyd got talked through the roof. If Bryant stays out of trouble, he'll be the guy they'll show in 2014 and 2015 draft hype commercials, not Floyd or Ansah.

    There's nothing out there yet on youtube, but Cornelius Washington looked physically like the best athlete out of all the LBs. Ripped, good build, looked the most explosive and performed very well in his high jump and 40 times. Plus he played for Georgia, which is absolutely stacked with good players that are great athletes. Wouldn't be shocked at all if he was on Seattle's radar.

    Update 4pm:

    Cornelius Washington is pretty ripped, but I didn't see 36 bench press reps coming. He dominated the linebacker group today and I think a lot of teams are going to re-watch and re-grade his tape after today. Washington looked pretty good in drills too. Normally you'd just say "so what, it's just the combine", but Georgia is one of those schools like Alabama that produces "Pete Carroll" type players like crazy. Lots of excellent athletes and a lot of natural football players on that team. It's not unthinkable that Washington was overlooked amidst a sea of NFL prospects. His teammate Sanders Commings is a similar story.

    Really disappointed in Sean Porter who looks fast on tape but ran two unofficial 4.78's. Maybe the best LB of them all on tape is Gerald Hodges, but he didn't look fast on tape and clocked a 4.78 today. He'll be a really nice mid-round LB for some team, but it won't be for us. Was really disappointed to see a 4.91 time from Chase Thomas. Bad ten yard split and short arms. On tape he didn't look like an NFL DE even though he was good at Stanford, and now it's possible he might not be an NFL LB as well. Shame for him because he's a natural football player. Kind of the Nick Reed of this draft.

    Also disappointed in Khaseem Greene. Truth be told, I never thought he looked fast on tape, but I assumed he was because he never seemed to be going close to 100% (reminded me of Bobby Wagner in that sense). Now we know, his speed (4.67) is basically average. Seattle might still draft him, but his combine performance probably knocked him down a round.

    Jon Bostic surprised with an unofficial 4.50, but it was later reduced to a 4.61 officially. Bostic's tape is even worse than teammate Jelani Jenkins, but Seattle hasn't been scared of bad tape in the past if the guy is fast enough.

    Zaviar Gooden was actually faster on his official time, jumping from an unofficial 4.50 to an official 4.47. Gooden has good tape too- I would expect him to be higher on Seattle's board than most other teams.

    I thought Sio Moore helped himself today. He was above average in pretty much every area.

    AJ Klein, 4.66 forty. 1.60 ten yard split. I don't think it's a stretch to call him a fast linebacker, and he's got great tape. I'm not surprised by that split number (tied for 5th out of 26 LBs), Klein can close in on a ballcarrier in a hurry. Could be a 4th or 5th round steal. Hopefully by us.

    A few "fast" LBs did not run today: Arthur Brown, Jelani Jenkins and Jarvis Jones (fast for a DE). Kiko Alonso refrained as well, which is disappointing because speed is the big question mark I have on him.
    Last edited by kearly on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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  • What was Jordan's time? I know his goal was to get into the 4.4's. For those of you that don't know, he came to Oregon as a WR, so he can definatly run.
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  • 4.53 unofficial. 4.60 official.

    Also, Mingo was an official 4.58 and Lemonier was an official 4.60. Hunt was an official 4.60. Ansah an official 4.63.

    Some guy named Ty Powell ran a very pretty forty timed at 4.64. He's from a small school and has short arms for a DE though. Might have to play LB.

    Not the best year if you want to find a Dwight Freeney. I am intrigued by Lemonier though. Cornelius Washington is too good to be true, how can he be that gifted but only get 10 sacks in four seasons?
    Last edited by kearly on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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  • kearly wrote:I also thought Armonty Bryant impressed, and it was watching him perform to no hype while guys like Ansah and Floyd got talked through the roof. If Bryant stays out of trouble, he'll be the guy they'll show in 2014 and 2015 draft hype commercials, not Floyd or Ansah.


    Exactly! There will be a lot of Seattle draft picks in the hype advertisements :th2thumbs:
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  • Lemonier is someone to watch.

    Intersting on Hughes, weeks ago it was Pat Kirwan who said about Seattle that they could skip some of the more known tackles in the first round and pick up Hughes in the third.

    With Bryant, his ten yard split was not inspiring, but in drills it is clear the kid plays with core strength. He did not look good getting out of the blocks. I still don't think he will see the end of the third round.
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  • I think Lemonier would be a good fit, i had mocked him to us in the 5th but think he might have to be taken in the 4th.

    1. Kawaan Short DT
    2. Khaseem Green OLB (Brown)
    3. Josh Reed TE (Escobar, McDonald)
    3. Aaron Dobson WR (Hunter, Rogers, Woods, Bailey) *Flynn Trade
    4. Robert Alford CB
    5. Corey Lemonier DE
    5. Jon Bostic MLB *Curry Trade
    6. Jordan Rodgers QB

    Looking at my pre combine mock I think Lemonier and Bostic have moved up a round, and Short and Green still seem like they could be had at those slots, Green didn't run fast enough to be a 1st round selection but did weigh in about 10lbs heavier than expected.
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  • Dion Jordan would be beyond perfect for this defense...oh well
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  • With Lemonier's times I find it hard to believe he'd make past the late 2nd rd.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to completely take the final step. That was done and the final step was taken.

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  • Hawkfan77 wrote:Dion Jordan would be beyond perfect for this defense...oh well



    If this draft had top level QB's and RB there might have been a way to get a guy like Jordan. To bad those guys arent there this year, and it looks like the top 10 will be a lot of DE/OL/LB types.
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  • Really slow draft for DE/LB. A lot less speed than last year. Kam Chancellor ran a 4.62. That would have been 4th place out of 26 LBs that ran today. That could factor into Seattle's options/game plan at LB.

    Time to start looking at safeties and see what's out there. I don't think Kenny Vaccaro even sniffs #25 (he'll go top 15), but if he does, he'll be the "shocking" Seahawks pick that shouldn't be shocking at all.
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  • jammerhawk wrote:With Lemonier's times I find it hard to believe he'd make past the late 2nd rd.


    I think he'll be there in the 3rd round unless 3-4 teams like him. Most 4-3 teams like their DEs to be bigger than him. Though 255 pounds, he plays smaller than that.
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  • I am more interested in Cornelius Washington than Corey Lemonier. Cornelius Washington is a little taller and heavier than Chris Clemons and is almost as fast as Bruce Irvin.
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  • Yeah, major bummer that Cornelius Washington has zero game compilations. What little I find of him he looks electric. Then I look up his stat page and he has just ten sacks and few TFLs over four years. I thought he might have played LB, but his tackles were really low too. Is this a case of him being a backup the whole time? Or did he just epically struggle to produce?

    I was watching the combine today as I ate lunch and some guy appeared on screen as he was about to do the vertical jump. He had absolutely monster arms, could maybe beat Robert Turbin in a Mr. Universe type contest. I then watched that guy post a 39" vertical, look great in drills, post a 4.55 forty (at 265 pounds), and then leave the competition in the dust with 36 reps on the bench. Sensational. Common sense says "too good to be true." That said, I'd draft him. I'm not sure where. But if there is a reason for his lack of production, I'd be okay with the risk of having to learn the hard way.
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  • Washington was a top-150 national high school prospect out of Georgia, but still redshirted his first season on campus. He played in every game of the 2009 season, starting one and making 13 tackles, five for loss and four sacks. As a sophomore, he started eight of 12 games played (missed one due to a concussion) and was credited with 24 tackles, three for loss, and a sack. It appeared he was on his way to a big season in 2011, starting three of the first five contests before being suspended two games due to an October arrest for speeding and driving under the influence (he received community service, alcohol/drug education program, probation). He finished with six starts in 12 games, with 17 tackles, six for loss and five sacks. Washington's senior season didn't match up to the preseason hype, as he only managed 22 tackles (3 for loss), and half of a sack.


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  • kearly wrote:(I'll probably update with more thoughts as the day goes on).

    Athleticism is about more than 40 times. So far I'm not seeing any "wow" speedsters at DE, but that's pretty much what was expected.

    The best runner by far is Dion Jordan, and regardless of how I view him (I see him as a Julian Peterson type SAM 4-3 OLB more than a traditional DE), I think he'll probably go top 10, and I'm sure Pete Carroll would shit his pants if he could get him.

    There are a lot of solid athletes out there, but the three that exceeded my expectations the most were Montari Hughes, Margus Hunt, and Corey Lemonier (pronounced "lemonwa" apparently).

    I didn't see Hughes forty time, but in drills he moved with the fluidity of a defensive end. He also looked very athletic physically, there was no gut, he's a slim 329. I haven't watched his tape yet, but in the drills he looked like a better athlete than Floyd, which is saying something. I'll definitely have to start working through his game compilations because Seattle loves athletes and Hughes could be a very real candidate not only at DT but also for the Red Bryant job.

    Margus Hunt was the most natural athlete. He looked like an Olympian compared to the rest. I know he's not a football player on tape and he's got a ton of problems, but he's killed this combine, and rekindled my interest in him. Fluid runner, really smooth and fast in change of direction, very strong upper body (38 bench press) and it showed in drills. Runs more gracefully than anyone else which is really surprising given his size. I probably wouldn't take him before the 5th or 6th still, but even if Seattle took him in the 2nd, I'd consider it an exciting pick because his potential is higher than Ansah's, IMO.

    Best LEO candidate hands down of this group was Corey Lemonier. His 4.60 forty doesn't blow you away, but he was lightning quick in drills, easily the quickest of them all. I think Seattle values quickness and change of direction skills over pure speed, and if I'm right, Lemonier could be very high on the radar. Very natural LEO.

    I also thought Armonty Bryant impressed, and it was watching him perform to no hype while guys like Ansah and Floyd got talked through the roof. If Bryant stays out of trouble, he'll be the guy they'll show in 2014 and 2015 draft hype commercials, not Floyd or Ansah.

    There's nothing out there yet on youtube, but Cornelius Washington looked physically like the best athlete out of all the LBs. Ripped, good build, looked the most explosive and performed very well in his high jump and 40 times. Plus he played for Georgia, which is absolutely stacked with good players that are great athletes. Wouldn't be shocked at all if he was on Seattle's radar.

    Update 4pm:

    Cornelius Washington is pretty ripped, but I didn't see 36 bench press reps coming. He dominated the linebacker group today and I think a lot of teams are going to re-watch and re-grade his tape after today. Washington looked pretty good in drills too. Normally you'd just say "so what, it's just the combine", but Georgia is one of those schools like Alabama that produces "Pete Carroll" type players like crazy. Lots of excellent athletes and a lot of natural football players on that team. It's not unthinkable that Washington was overlooked amidst a sea of NFL prospects. His teammate Sanders Commings is a similar story.

    Really disappointed in Sean Porter who looks fast on tape but ran two unofficial 4.78's. Maybe the best LB of them all on tape is Gerald Hodges, but he didn't look fast on tape and clocked a 4.78 today. He'll be a really nice mid-round LB for some team, but it won't be for us. Was really disappointed to see a 4.91 time from Chase Thomas. Bad ten yard split and short arms. On tape he didn't look like an NFL DE even though he was good at Stanford, and now it's possible he might not be an NFL LB as well. Shame for him because he's a natural football player. Kind of the Nick Reed of this draft.

    Also disappointed in Khaseem Greene. Truth be told, I never thought he looked fast on tape, but I assumed he was because he never seemed to be going close to 100% (reminded me of Bobby Wagner in that sense). Now we know, his speed (4.67) is basically average. Seattle might still draft him, but his combine performance probably knocked him down a round.

    Jon Bostic surprised with an unofficial 4.50, but it was later reduced to a 4.61 officially. Bostic's tape is even worse than teammate Jelani Jenkins, but Seattle hasn't been scared of bad tape in the past if the guy is fast enough.

    Zaviar Gooden was actually faster on his official time, jumping from an unofficial 4.50 to an official 4.47. Gooden has good tape too- I would expect him to be higher on Seattle's board than most other teams.

    I thought Sio Moore helped himself today. He was above average in pretty much every area.

    AJ Klein, 4.66 forty. 1.60 ten yard split. I don't think it's a stretch to call him a fast linebacker, and he's got great tape. I'm not surprised by that split number (tied for 5th out of 26 LBs), Klein can close in on a ballcarrier in a hurry. Could be a 4th or 5th round steal. Hopefully by us.

    A few "fast" LBs did not run today: Arthur Brown, Jelani Jenkins and Jarvis Jones (fast for a DE). Kiko Alonso refrained as well, which is disappointing because speed is the big question mark I have on him.


    Kearly, did you get a chance to watch the DT's today? I am specifically curious who may have impressed you as a 3tech that we can reasonably get, and who disappointed
    you that originally was higher on your list?
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  • kf3339 wrote:Kearly, did you get a chance to watch the DT's today? I am specifically curious who may have impressed you as a 3tech that we can reasonably get, and who disappointed you that originally was higher on your list?


    My opinions of the DTs didn't really change much today. Richardson is still #1, Short #2. Brandon Williams and Sylvester Williams push the pocket a little bit better than Short does, but I'm starting to think Short could be ideal for Dan Quinn if he's serious about being more "aggressive" this year (aka blitzing more). I'm assuming that Lotulelei is a top 15 lock. Don't think heart condition will hurt him much, newer reports suggest it's nothing to sweat about. I think Pete would jizz in his pants if Lotulelei hit #25 though, assuming the medical checked out. Seems extremely unlikely though.

    Opinions on the WR/DE/LB all changed a lot the last few days, but DT didn't move the needle at all.
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  • Sio Moore impressed me as well. I don't know about you guys but I am actually glad Hopkins and Greene didn't have blazing speed. There is an outside chance Hopkins could now be there at 57 and Greene at 89. I've always trusted the tape over times.
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  • Watching the film on these prospects just tells me this draft will be special.
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  • kearly wrote:
    kf3339 wrote:Kearly, did you get a chance to watch the DT's today? I am specifically curious who may have impressed you as a 3tech that we can reasonably get, and who disappointed you that originally was higher on your list?


    My opinions of the DTs didn't really change much today. Richardson is still #1, Short #2. Brandon Williams and Sylvester Williams push the pocket a little bit better than Short does, but I'm starting to think Short could be ideal for Dan Quinn if he's serious about being more "aggressive" this year (aka blitzing more). I'm assuming that Lotulelei is a top 15 lock. Don't think heart condition will hurt him much, newer reports suggest it's nothing to sweat about. I think Pete would jizz in his pants if Lotulelei hit #25 though, assuming the medical checked out. Seems extremely unlikely though.

    Opinions on the WR/DE/LB all changed a lot the last few days, but DT didn't move the needle at all.


    Thanks Kearly. I hope you do a recap of all the position groups after the combine is over this year. It's really an interesting decision process on what the Hawks may do this year perhaps even more than the last several years. We just have so much more depth and very few holes to really fill on this team.

    Also you may have discussed this in prior posts but how did you become so well versed on both football knowledge, and evaluating players? You are just so much more detailed and accurate than the vast majority on this board, or any other board I have ever seen!
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  • Is Jordan just a pass rush specialist? I can't imagine him being very good against the run. He's very fast, tall, and lanky. Reminds me of a taller Bruce Irvin.
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  • kf3339 wrote:Thanks Kearly. I hope you do a recap of all the position groups after the combine is over this year. It's really an interesting decision process on what the Hawks may do this year perhaps even more than the last several years. We just have so much more depth and very few holes to really fill on this team.

    Also you may have discussed this in prior posts but how did you become so well versed on both football knowledge, and evaluating players? You are just so much more detailed and accurate than the vast majority on this board, or any other board I have ever seen!


    Thanks for the compliment. I played, which helped. I spend a really ridiculous amount of time doing this stuff, it's all I do when I'm not at work. I have no life. This time of year, football is my life.

    I am reasonably sure that Scottemojo knows more about the true nature of football than anyone else- why the little things matter- etc. Snohomie and Derek Stephens have an excellent grasp on the technical side of scouting as well. English does a good job of course. I found out about guys like John Simon and DeAndre Hopkins because he mentioned them.
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  • Hawken-Dazs wrote:Is Jordan just a pass rush specialist? I can't imagine him being very good against the run. He's very fast, tall, and lanky. Reminds me of a taller Bruce Irvin.



    Not really, IMO he's nothing like Irvin. He's decent vs the run, and actually really good in pass coverage. At UO he was asked to cover TE, slot and even sometimes lined up out wide on the WR. He's not the one trick pony some have made him out to be.

    The best description I've seen on dion, is that he's a guy you that you build on Madden and set everything at 85. He's not great at any one thing, but good at it all.
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  • kearly wrote:
    kf3339 wrote:Thanks Kearly. I hope you do a recap of all the position groups after the combine is over this year. It's really an interesting decision process on what the Hawks may do this year perhaps even more than the last several years. We just have so much more depth and very few holes to really fill on this team.

    Also you may have discussed this in prior posts but how did you become so well versed on both football knowledge, and evaluating players? You are just so much more detailed and accurate than the vast majority on this board, or any other board I have ever seen!


    Thanks for the compliment. I played, which helped. I spend a really ridiculous amount of time doing this stuff, it's all I do when I'm not at work. I have no life. This time of year, football is my life.

    I am reasonably sure that Scottemojo knows more about the true nature of football than anyone else- why the little things matter- etc. Snohomie and Derek Stephens have an excellent grasp on the technical side of scouting as well. English does a good job of course. I found out about guys like John Simon and DeAndre Hopkins because he mentioned them.


    I know there are other well versed posters including those you mentioned. I'm just always impressed with you and the others ability to discuss the details of football so well. It helps more novices like me who may know some things, but don't have the time to really get that deep into the game as you guys.
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  • Here is the guy most people are now comparing D. Jordan to, and the comparison isn't far off. In fact Jordan's numbers are all better at the combine the Julian's where, JP was 6.5 231 and ran a 4.68. While DJ is 6'7 248 and ran a 4.6 flat.

    http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/ds ... genpos=OLB
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  • FWIW, I think the JP comparisons come from the role he played, not necessarily the prospect. On the field, JP was more of a freak athlete and a thousand times more fluid at getting around blockers. I think he could have a similar NFL career, although I think Jordan is more of a 3-4 OLB than a 4-3 guy. JP was the prototypical 4-3 SAM / DE hybrid. Jordan could play that role too- but I think he'd just be better off in a 3-4 defense.
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  • Arthur Brown is still my favorite prospect at WLB. He reminds me a lot of Lavonte David coming out of college. If he were to fall to our 2nd round pick that's who I'd draft.
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