I would be surprised if DeAndre Hopkins ends up a Seahawk

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  • DeAndre Hopkins is one of my favorite players in the draft, but today's combine performance proved that he is the near total opposite of the kind of player John Schneider targets at WR in the draft.

    Golden Tate: Fast (4.42 forty), quick, elusive, undeveloped,
    Kris Durham: Fast for his size (4.46 forty), tall, undeveloped, low number of starts
    Doug Baldwin: Fast for a UDFA (4.49), quick, moderately low number of starts

    Schneider recently revealed that his scouting department first evaluates by athleticism before later evaluating on tape and team fit. Seattle tends to draft athletes first, trusting their coaching staff for their ability to coach up players. Tate and Durham were both undeveloped, and while Baldwin had some polish he didn't see significant reps until his final season. All of them were fast in a straight line and had quick feet that could help them change directions very well.

    Schneider learned his craft in Green Bay, and if you look at WRs they drafted you will see a similar trend- speed and YAC ability first and foremost. Randall Cobb ran a 4.39 forty. Greg Jennings a 4.42. Donald Driver a 4.45. Jordy Nelson a 4.51. James Jones a 4.54 (listed 4.59 some places).

    Hopkins is clutch, polished, and experienced. He's a really good player, but he's more of a football player than an athlete (he ran a 4.57 time today, which is about what I would have guessed he'd run). I think the world of Hopkins, but even I know that he doesn't have a ton of untapped potential. While Hopkins is really good, he's one of those "what you see is what you get" players. I think Seattle likes drafting players who's best football is still ahead of them, and that may even mean drafting players who might have an issue or two on tape but have special upside if they figure it out.

    Being raw is not a requirement, as Doug Baldwin shows. I think a more accurate statement would be that polish factors so much less than potential that it ends up being overshadowed in the evaluation. You strip away Hopkins clutchness and savvy, and you are left with a pretty average NFL WR. If you evaluated a WR with polish mattering more, you'd love Hopkins, but if you evaluated a WR from the vantage point of believing athleticism matters more, you'd merely like him.

    I am not basing this opinion on a sub-par forty time, but his combine performance has served to confirm something that I have suspected about Hopkins' athleticism. He doesn't get high in the air in football games and there is usually a decent though not ironclad connection between how high a player jumps and how explosive they are.

    I think the player that really helped himself out today in terms of boosting his chances with Seattle was Ryan Swope. When I started watching his tape more closely several days ago I noticed that he had very quick feet and was almost like a poor-man's Golden Tate after the catch. I already knew he was an excellent deep threat. I knew he was faster than people thought. I didn't know he'd be that fast though. Running a 4.34 in a 6'0" 205 pound body is pretty uncommon- you don't see that every day especially for a WR with tape as good as his. Again, hate to play the race card, but if he isn't white I think the conversation about him would have been very different from the start. Certain positions, like white WRs and black QBs will always have to battle stereotypes.

    Cordarrelle Patterson is another player I'd watch. He's more of a "moves" player after the catch than a burner, but 4.42 in a 6'2" body is still pretty damn good. Seattle loves players that can make moves after the catch anyway. He's raw but I don't think Seattle cares.

    Keenan Allen didn't run, but if he posts a good time at his pro-day I imagine he'd be high on the board as well. He's very similar to Golden Tate after the catch. You'll notice that I will refer to Tate often in this post. I think he's kind of the classic example for what this FO looks for in a WR prospect.

    Marcus Wheaton helped himself by running a 4.45. That's definitely fast enough and his good tape can only help him. Pac-12 connection.

    Keep an eye on Kenny Stills. After the catch he looks like a Golden Tate clone, and like a young Golden Tate he's very undeveloped and often frustrating. Today he ran a 4.38 while standing 6'0.5" tall. He just screams PCJS when I watch him, not because of good tape but because he fits the mold like a glove. Could be a 7th rounder for us.

    Justin Hunter might be an option too- he ran a 4.43 while standing nearly 6'4". Then again, when I watch Hunter's game tape he has extremely slow feet- he takes huge strides to produce his speed, so I think he's more of a deep ball guy than an NFL YAC guy.

    Corey Fuller (4.43) and perhaps Chris Gragg (WR/TE hybrid who ran 4.50) might have raised their stock with Seattle as well.

    My guess is that Seattle's big board at WR starts off Patterson, Allen, and Swope (edit: also, Austin is probably up there too). Maybe not in that order, but I think it starts with those three. I wouldn't overlook Swope. He checks every box Seattle needs (among them he's a great competitor), has great tape, and pretty much sealed the deal today with a 4.34 forty and a 37" vertical. I'm really curious to hear where Swope's draft stock will end up after this weekend. He NEVER should have been a 4th rounder, and that was before what he did today.
    Last edited by kearly on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Pretty sure every team's WR board starts with Patterson and unfortunately unless we're planning on moving up 15 or so spots, he's a pipe dream for the Hawks. Swope is intriguing though, that's for sure.
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  • I think you're almost certainly right about Hopkins, which is kind of a shame. But it is what it is. Also think Swope will be right up there but I wonder what round they'll grade him. He had a surprisingly middling season in 2012 despite the crazy offensive production at Texas A&M. He had four games with one or two catches and four games with less than 20 yards. If he's there in R4, which I think I doubt, then he looks very Seahawky. I want to say he's a third rounder right now. Not sure how I feel about him in that range.

    One place I disagree is Keenan Allen, because I think he'd run a 4.6 today. At best a time similar to Hopkins. And given Allen has smaller hands and reach and only one inch in height on Hopkins, I don't think he'd be a great option.

    I suspect if the Seahawks do go for a pass catcher in R1 it'll be a tight end, but I'm more convinced then ever today that they'll go defense early.
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  • IMO, the sample size is too small to know what Seattle is looking for in a receiver.

    We've seen players drafted both raw and polished, athlete and football player. And each side of the spectrum have worked out and failed.
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  • Recon_Hawk wrote:IMO, the sample size is too small to know what Seattle is looking for in a receiver.

    We've seen players drafted both raw and polished, athlete and football player. And each side of the spectrum have worked out and failed.


    Durham and Tate are the only players we've drafted, and both were raw. The one commonality across the board is speed and quickness. You look at Green Bay, it's essentially the same thing, and you know that's where he's getting the philosophy from.

    Tuinei is the only slow WR they brought in from the draft process, but he would have been very fast for a TE. There was talk they might try to convert him, so even there, speed was a potential plus.
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  • theENGLISHseahawk wrote:One place I disagree is Keenan Allen, because I think he'd run a 4.6 today.


    No way he'll be that slow. I'm guessing he'll go 4.45 to 4.55 range. His field velocity is identical to Stedman Bailey's, IMO.

    As far as Swope, he had almost 1000 yards last year catching passes from a freshman QB that had 1410 rushing yards. Manziel is awesome, but he kind of likes to tuck and run. Just a little bit I'd say.

    Subconsciously I've been looking for reasons to not grade Swope among the top WRs, but now I think I might have run out of excuses to overlook him.
    Last edited by kearly on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • kearly wrote:
    theENGLISHseahawk wrote:One place I disagree is Keenan Allen, because I think he'd run a 4.6 today.


    No way he'll be that slow. I'm guessing he'll go 4.45 to 4.55 range. His field velocity is identical to Stedman Bailey's, IMO.

    As far as Swope, he had almost 1000 yards last year catching passes from a QB that had 1410 rushing yards. Manziel is awesome, but he kind of likes to tuck and run. Just a little bit I'd say.


    Allen ran a 4.57 in high school at 190lbs. He's 206lbs now. During recruitment, a lack of great speed was often cited and it's one of the reasons Nick Saban wanted to play him at safety at Alabama.

    Of course, he could've improved upon that time. But I've not seen anything to suggest he's suddenly a 4.4 guy on tape.
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  • Maybe you've heard this term: "BIGGER FASTER STRONGER." When I played in division II, I was an offensive lineman and I even I was getting training on speed optimization techniques. That combined with many years of college level conditioning and workouts, he'll be far more of an athlete now than he was then. Speed is partially a factor of lower body quick twitch strength (how many pounds per square inch of force on the push off combined with pace), you can't teach it but it can be optimized. Maybe your legs can only move so many times per minute, but if you explode 2 more inches per leg move, it will increase your speed. It's very common for athletes to gain size AND speed compared to their pre-athlete levels.
    Last edited by kearly on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • As I said, maybe he has improved. Or maybe he's just naturally a 4.5/4.6 guy? Could easily go either way. In my view, he's still a 4.5/4.6 guy on tape. We'll never know because he decided not to work out because he's still injured (apparently). Been a long 'knee strain' this...
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  • Bailey ran a 4.51. That's about what I'm expecting. 4.40 and 4.60 would surprise me.
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  • kearly wrote:
    Recon_Hawk wrote:IMO, the sample size is too small to know what Seattle is looking for in a receiver.

    We've seen players drafted both raw and polished, athlete and football player. And each side of the spectrum have worked out and failed.


    Durham and Tate are the only players we've drafted, and both were raw. The one commonality across the board is speed and quickness. You look at Green Bay, it's essentially the same thing, and you know that's where he's getting the philosophy from.

    Tuinei is the only slow WR they brought in from the draft process, but he would have been very fast for a TE. There was talk they might try to convert him, so even there, speed was a potential plus.


    I don't disagree that they want speed and quickness, but only two picks at one position over 3 years isn't enough for me to think they automatically pass on those who don't fit that category. (they've drafted "football players" at other positions and liked both Mike Williams and Obo enough to resign them. Neither quick or fast)

    Durham was a gamble with a mid-round pick and Tate was considered a value pick in the late second (and took 3 years to develop). If we're talking receivers in the first round, who's to say they don't want polish and consistency versus another risky, development pick at receiver?
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  • kearly wrote:Bailey ran a 4.51. That's about what I'm expecting. 4.40 and 4.60 would surprise me.

    4.5 was what I see on tape, too. And how some of these receivers at the combine ran (who I didn't think as fast), it wouldn't surprise me to see him run in the late 4.4s.

    No way he runs a 4.6
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  • Recon_Hawk wrote:No way he runs a 4.6


    I've read the words "No way" a lot today on this forum.

    And I don't think on any occasion it's been justified.
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  • I was really disappointed that Aaron Dobson from Marshall did not participate in the 40 today....he has smaller hands than I had hoped, but seems to fit the "raw" athlete mold you are referring to.
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  • theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
    Recon_Hawk wrote:No way he runs a 4.6


    I've read the words "No way" a lot today on this forum.

    And I don't think on any occasion it's been justified.


    Of course it's not when you disagree with it, but we all see different things.

    I've read your work enough to see you've thrown out definitive statements equivalent to "no way" in similar instances that I would disagree with, but in your opinion, it is justified because you have total belief in what you say.

    Same with me and Allen. I've seen him play the last two seasons and have compared him to the receivers of this class and their speed. He's not as slow as you make him out to be.

    But that's cool. Allen still has his pro-day. We'll see then.
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  • theENGLISHseahawk wrote:
    Recon_Hawk wrote:No way he runs a 4.6


    I've read the words "No way" a lot today on this forum.

    And I don't think on any occasion it's been justified.


    I would personally find it surprising if he ran a 4.6. Guys that run that slow don't make people miss the way Allen does. The eyeball test isn't perfect when it comes to speed, but he looks dead exactly the same as Bailey to my eye in terms of field velocity.

    Scouts and Draftniks will fall into a hive mentality and make misjudgements from time to time. That said, I don't think there would the near unanimous agreement that Allen is a first round pick if they thought he looked "4.6" fast on tape. Granted, I agree with you that Allen is over-rated, I'd grade him mid-2nd. Maybe. But he's faster than 4.6 and he moves well. Even I'll give him that.

    I think it was a calculated move by Allen not to run today. Pro-day 40 times tend to be faster, typically .03 to .05 faster on average I would guess. He knows that his stock is tied to his athleticism, so even running a 4.50 could probably cost him money.
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  • Recon_Hawk wrote:I don't disagree that they want speed and quickness, but only two picks at one position over 3 years isn't enough for me to think they automatically pass on those who don't fit that category.


    Well if you count UDFA's like Baldwin, Bates, Kearse, and Tuinei, and add them to Tate and Durham, then you'd have five of six WR that posted good 40 times and the one who didn't might have been signed as an experiment as a fast TE.

    Green Bay's model (which influenced John Schneider) shows a conclusive process- speed matters. Quickness matters. Other points are negotiable.

    Remember how John Schneider disliked last year's WR draft class despite everyone else saying it was great (including me)? The reason was because last year was the year of the big WR, not the year of the fast/quick WR. This year is the year of the fast/quick WR, and now Schneider is showing much greater signs of interest.
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  • Spleenhawk2.0 wrote:I was really disappointed that Aaron Dobson from Marshall did not participate in the 40 today....he has smaller hands than I had hoped, but seems to fit the "raw" athlete mold you are referring to.


    Dobson is on my radar, i mocked him as our 3rd in my pre combine mock.
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  • Recon_Hawk wrote:IMO, the sample size is too small to know what Seattle is looking for in a receiver.

    We've seen players drafted both raw and polished, athlete and football player. And each side of the spectrum have worked out and failed.


    I went back an looked at all WR's drafted by GB in the last 10 years
    viewtopic.php?f=18&t=65863&p=880644#p880644

    Size didn't stick out to me, but Mike Williams, Durham, Braylon Edwards, TO, ect all makes me believe they want a 6'2 or bigger guy. Sidney is tall but not very muscular. I think Kennan Allen might be exactly what they want. Swope is a great fit too.
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  • Yeah, I think they are looking for a jump ball type weapon to help their vertical game and redzone offense. Those types tend to be tall. Tyler Eifert is hands down the best in the draft for this category, though I'm not sure Seattle would draft TE that early. Swope is 6'0" with a 37" vert and won his share of deep balls in college. Justin Hunter could make sense too, not much of a YAC guy but he's fast, tall, and has length, kind of a classic deep ball WR.
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  • kearly wrote:
    Recon_Hawk wrote:I don't disagree that they want speed and quickness, but only two picks at one position over 3 years isn't enough for me to think they automatically pass on those who don't fit that category.


    Well if you count UDFA's like Baldwin, Bates, Kearse, and Tuinei, and add them to Tate and Durham, then you'd have five of six WR that posted good 40 times and the one who didn't might have been signed as an experiment as a fast TE.

    Green Bay's model (which influenced John Schneider) shows a conclusive process- speed matters. Quickness matters. Other points are negotiable.

    Remember how John Schneider disliked last year's WR draft class despite everyone else saying it was great (including me)? The reason was because last year was the year of the big WR, not the year of the fast/quick WR. This year is the year of the fast/quick WR, and now Schneider is showing much greater signs of interest.


    All good points. A couple things:

    UDFA signings usually tend to be developmental, athletic types. The cost is low, so why not sign someone who is raw and hope they can develop the mental part of their game.

    Last years draft at WR, compared to this one, just sucked. It lacked depth throughout the draft and even the big WRs weren't that good, in hindsight, so it may have been just that instead of size vs speed.

    In all honesty, I think you're right about Hopkins not getting drafted by Seattle. I think Seattle will be looking for 1. Size 2. Speed 3. Available with our 2nd round pick or later, so none of that fits Hopkins, but I do feel Hopkins has intangibles that would excite a coach like Carroll. Just not enough to pick him the first round.
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  • Well based on what happened last year it's safe to say no one knows for sure what Pete and John will do this year. Hopkins is a player they will take a serious look at and I could easily see them taking a WR at 25.
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  • Recon_Hawk wrote:Last years draft at WR, compared to this one, just sucked. It lacked depth throughout the draft and even the big WRs weren't that good, in hindsight, so it may have been just that instead of size vs speed.


    In hindsight, it appears that way, but going in it was pretty hyped. One of the largest draft sites, Mocking The Draft, asked readers which area of the draft was the strongest and WR ran away with the vote (I voted RB, and look pretty smart for it considering how good that rookie RB class was).

    If Seattle prized size first, they would have taken a WR last year. There were a ton of them available in the first three rounds. That draft was all about big WRs, and JS went out of his way to say he didn't think it was a very good group.
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  • kearly wrote:
    Recon_Hawk wrote:Last years draft at WR, compared to this one, just sucked. It lacked depth throughout the draft and even the big WRs weren't that good, in hindsight, so it may have been just that instead of size vs speed.


    In hindsight, it appears that way, but going in it was pretty hyped. One of the largest draft sites, Mocking The Draft, asked readers which area of the draft was the strongest and WR ran away with the vote (I voted RB, and look pretty smart for it considering how good that rookie RB class was).

    If Seattle prized size first, they would have taken a WR last year. There were a ton of them available in the first three rounds. That draft was all about big WRs, and JS went out of his way to say he didn't think it was a very good group.


    Had Seattle prized receivers who are fast and athletic first, and experience and polish second, they would have just drafted Stephen Hill with their 2nd rd pick last year, instead of trading with the Jets to take him instead. He's the perfect definition of the player you're arguing they want in a receiver: fast (ran a 4.37), high upside because of his size, dominated all the other combine tests for receivers, and even fits the Green Bay model of being a 2nd rounder.

    But they didn't for the same reason they didn't draft a big, experienced receiver, either. Receiver wasn't a huge need last year and definitely not worth taking over any of our first three round picks.

    I do agree last years draft had a lot of size, but it had its share of speed guys, too, and so far, one of 2012's better rookie receiver wasn't even big or fast. It was Kendall Wright, the 5' 10" kid from Baylor who shocked everyone by running a 4.61 and was still drafted #20 as the "polished" receiver of the bunch.

    Really, last years class was just bad, not because it was all size, but because it also lacked depth and quality.
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  • The two players that helped their draft stock the most yesterday, to me, appears to be Ryan Swope and Trevon Austin...GMs probably put back in the tapes of these kids after they ran identical 40 times at 4.34 and saw they were both clutch performers and had great potential. Both will probably be gone by our pick in round 2. If they are not, and we don't take Hopkins, I'm all for taking either of them. Their stock soared IMO after yesterday.
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  • Like Kip, I don't see Hopkins as the pick, but not because of a lack of athleticism. I could see them taking him later in the draft because they like his unique skills, just not the first. I think they won't take a first round WR unless he is a can't miss freak.

    Hopkins reminds me of John Carlson. He is what he is, not much development needed. High floor, safe pick.
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  • aawolf wrote:The two players that helped their draft stock the most yesterday, to me, appears to be Ryan Swope and Trevon Austin...GMs probably put back in the tapes of these kids after they ran identical 40 times at 4.34 and saw they were both clutch performers and had great potential. Both will probably be gone by our pick in round 2. If they are not, and we don't take Hopkins, I'm all for taking either of them. Their stock soared IMO after yesterday.


    If I'm in the Hawks war room, I'm pounding the table for Swope in the 1st round because I agree with you, he won't last until our 2nd round pick at #56.

    The only other way I see us getting him is to find a trade partner for Flynn and trade up into the upper half of the 2nd round and nab him.

    The Jets at #39 would work nicely.

    In a perfect scenario, the Hawks would select DT Short at #25 and then trade Flynn to the Jets for a swap of 2nd round picks to enable the Hawks to select Swope with the 39th overall pick. :th2thumbs:
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  • Scottemojo wrote:Like Kip, I don't see Hopkins as the pick, but not because of a lack of athleticism. I could see them taking him later in the draft because they like his unique skills, just not the first. I think they won't take a first round WR unless he is a can't miss freak.

    Hopkins reminds me of John Carlson. He is what he is, not much development needed. High floor, safe pick.


    I'm sorry, but I disagree with both you and Kearly about Hopkin's value or his "ceiling". I think this dude is a flat-out playmaker and I want him more than Swope or Austin. The difference is that I saw Hopkins as the guy in Clemson's offense that you just knew was going to get the ball on third down somehow, and yet defenses just couldn't stop it. He was similar to NC State legend, Torry Holt, in this regard. You just knew he would make a play when it mattered. I'm sure Austin and Swope would be fine picks, but they didn't even get the most yards on their teams (Mike Evans at A&M got more receptions and yards than Swope and Steadman Bailey got more yards and an equal number of receptions at WVU). I'm just saying that I think Hopkins is more of a game-breaker than these two and I still feel he's worthy of our first round pick.

    I'd trade up to get any of them in the second if we can get an earlier pick though.
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  • Is there ANY chance Swope lasts until Seattle's pick in round 2? If not, I don't see him as a Hawk. As everyone has rightly pointed out, JS/PC are pretty up front about team needs and what they likely go after and they've stated pass rush, pass rush, pass rush. And after he posted that 40 time, I'd be very surprised if he got past round 1. As many have mentioned, he'd fit NE nearly perfectly and the cap savings for them by being able to wave good-bye to Welker as a result would be significant.
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  • hawksfansinceday1 wrote:Is there ANY chance Swope lasts until Seattle's pick in round 2? If not, I don't see him as a Hawk. As everyone has rightly pointed out, JS/PC are pretty up front about team needs and what they likely go after and they've stated pass rush, pass rush, pass rush. And after he posted that 40 time, I'd be very surprised if he got past round 1. As many have mentioned, he'd fit NE nearly perfectly and the cap savings for them by being able to wave good-bye to Welker as a result would be significant.


    Wow, the Ryan Swope hype grew pretty fast.

    There's absolutely every chance that Swope lasts to our 2nd rd pick. I'd be a bit surprised if he didn't. This is a deep draft at WR and a 6' slot receiver, even with speed, may not be what every team is looking for. Jmo
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  • I think you're right.

    I'm not really sure who fits the mould that you are referencing though?

    There really are no sub 4.5 guys besides Hunter that are 6'1+ and have huge YAC.. I think the player you are describing his Julio Jones, AJ Green, and Megatron.

    I think Justin Hunter is still the guy. The Tape SUCKS, he has slow feet, and isn't good after catch. However, isn't this all stuff that can be taught with a guy who runs 4.43 with a ridiculous frame? I think so.
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  • kearly wrote:
    Schneider learned his craft in Green Bay, and if you look at WRs they drafted you will see a similar trend- speed and YAC ability first and foremost. Randall Cobb ran a 4.39 forty. Greg Jennings a 4.42. Donald Driver a 4.45. Jordy Nelson a 4.51. James Jones a 4.54 (listed 4.59 some places).



    JS didn't draft Cobb (I know you're just saying that the system he learned under did), and I think it's a huge assumption to say that he had his hand in all four of those listed. I don't think you can deduct much from that to be honest.
    I don't think a lot of those WRs are as good as Arod and Favre (to some extent) has made them. You're taking about the best successor/predecessor combination since Montana/Young. I wouldn't be surprised to see Jenning move elsewhere and put up less than 700 yards in a full season.

    The only thing I think JS and PC look for is, can they tilt the field? Can they make plays? To some extent, I have still a small hope in Nuke Hopkins being a Seahawk.
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  • lukerguy wrote:I think you're right.

    I'm not really sure who fits the mould that you are referencing though?

    There really are no sub 4.5 guys besides Hunter that are 6'1+ and have huge YAC.. I think the player you are describing his Julio Jones, AJ Green, and Megatron.

    I think Justin Hunter is still the guy. The Tape SUCKS, he has slow feet, and isn't good after catch. However, isn't this all stuff that can be taught with a guy who runs 4.43 with a ridiculous frame? I think so.


    My take is based only on Swope's 2011 season, so maybe he's grown a lot and I'm wrong, but I never got the sense Swope can be an outside threat the same way even guys slower them him are. He's great on the inside because he's intelligent and has the quickness and speed to get YAC but, IMO, he works better in space then he would fighting for a jump ball along the sideline or on deep routes.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I really like Swope as a player who would probably beat out Baldwin or at least make plays in 4-receiver sets, and I mentioned this in Kip's Dream Mock, but if Im drafting a receiver in the first two rounds, I want a player who could replace Sidney on the outside if need be. I don't think Swope can be that guy. And for other teams looking for depth with their X or Z spots, they may feel the same way, thus reducing the chance he's drafted earlier than our second round pick.
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  • aawolf wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:Like Kip, I don't see Hopkins as the pick, but not because of a lack of athleticism. I could see them taking him later in the draft because they like his unique skills, just not the first. I think they won't take a first round WR unless he is a can't miss freak.

    Hopkins reminds me of John Carlson. He is what he is, not much development needed. High floor, safe pick.


    I'm sorry, but I disagree with both you and Kearly about Hopkin's value or his "ceiling". I think this dude is a flat-out playmaker and I want him more than Swope or Austin. The difference is that I saw Hopkins as the guy in Clemson's offense that you just knew was going to get the ball on third down somehow, and yet defenses just couldn't stop it. He was similar to NC State legend, Torry Holt, in this regard. You just knew he would make a play when it mattered. I'm sure Austin and Swope would be fine picks, but they didn't even get the most yards on their teams (Mike Evans at A&M got more receptions and yards than Swope and Steadman Bailey got more yards and an equal number of receptions at WVU). I'm just saying that I think Hopkins is more of a game-breaker than these two and I still feel he's worthy of our first round pick.

    I'd trade up to get any of them in the second if we can get an earlier pick though.

    I think you are taking me all wrong. I like Hopkins. I just don't think the Hawks like to use first round picks on receivers. They will, but only on a freak. Hopkins is not a freak, IMO. Also, Torry Holt was damn fast, Hopkins is not. Dismiss his lack of speed if you want, but I think that matters to Pete.

    FWIW, if I am wrong about what they prefer and they take him in the first, I will think it is a good pick.
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  • kearly wrote:Maybe you've heard this term: "BIGGER FASTER STRONGER." When I played in division II, I was an offensive lineman and I even I was getting training on speed optimization techniques. That combined with many years of college level conditioning and workouts, he'll be far more of an athlete now than he was then. Speed is partially a factor of lower body quick twitch strength (how many pounds per square inch of force on the push off combined with pace), you can't teach it but it can be optimized. Maybe your legs can only move so many times per minute, but if you explode 2 more inches per leg move, it will increase your speed. It's very common for athletes to gain size AND speed compared to their pre-athlete levels.




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  • I agree that they will probably go DL but not because of any problems thay have with Hopkins talent, size or speed. They will probably draft DL from a value standpoint and they have issues there thats a fact. However if Hopkins is there i'd love to see him on the field with Wilson Tate and Rice. That would complete our offense .
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  • I think barring a move up.. we're probably out of range for Cordarrelle Patterson (this years Julio Jones IMO) and Tavon Austin.

    Keenan Allen may go above 25 too.
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  • Also I know PC has shied away from picking up USC guys.. but Robert Woods may be in play as well.. he looked VERY impressive during drills. Caught everything, ran a good 40.. etc.
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  • Hasselbeck wrote:Also I know PC has shied away from picking up USC guys.. but Robert Woods may be in play as well.. he looked VERY impressive during drills. Caught everything, ran a good 40.. etc.


    I think he ran an ok 40- 4.51. I was shocked that he didn't run a sub 4.5.. I think I'd be much more interested if he ran a 4.40. Sidney Rice runs a 4.5
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  • Recon_Hawk wrote:Had Seattle prized receivers who are fast and athletic first, and experience and polish second, they would have just drafted Stephen Hill with their 2nd rd pick last year, instead of trading with the Jets to take him instead. He's the perfect definition of the player you're arguing they want in a receiver: fast (ran a 4.37), high upside because of his size, dominated all the other combine tests for receivers, and even fits the Green Bay model of being a 2nd rounder.


    Seattle was locked into LB in that round. Info Rob and I had combined with Pete's statements strongly inferred as much. Rob and I were mocking LBs in round 2 long before they actually took Bobby Wagner there. WR was not even listed by our inside source as a need that offseason. As you said, they probably weren't going to draft a WR no matter what in the early rounds that year.

    FWIW, I don't really think Hill truly fits the mold. Fast, big, unpolished yes, but he was more of a vertical guy than a YAC guy. Didn't have the quickest feet.

    lukerguy wrote:JS didn't draft Cobb (I know you're just saying that the system he learned under did), and I think it's a huge assumption to say that he had his hand in all four of those listed. I don't think you can deduct much from that to be honest.


    Not saying he had a hand in it, saying that Ted Thompson drafted those WRs, and Schneider learned his craft from Ted Thompson.

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    ?

    Scottemojo wrote:FWIW, if I am wrong about what they prefer and they take him in the first, I will think it is a good pick.


    I'm in this category as well. If anything, this thread was an attempt to keep my hopes from getting up.
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  • kearly wrote:
    GoHawks wrote:Jesus Montero - please pick up the white phone


    ?

    Kip - If you weren't aware, Jesus Montero (Mariners catcher) is notorious slow and would benefit from your statements that running speed can be improved.
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  • We know that Seattle breaks down their draft into "pockets." Last year for example, they had pass rush very early, RB in round 1-3 (then forced to go 4th round), QB 4-6 (forced to go 3rd round), etc.

    I suspect Seattle's "zone" table probably looks like this:

    Pass rush: 1st round, rounds 3-5. I think Seattle will draft at least 2 pass rushers, one very early and a second in the middle rounds. If Richardson or Short are there, I'd be stunned if Seattle passed.

    Red Bryant backup: rounds 3-7. A big 5-tech. Optional pick, but could happen if they really like a guy.

    Wide receiver: rounds 2-4. Seattle might draft a second WR even later. I could see Seattle going WR in round one if they don't like the pass rush options there.

    Tight end: rounds 2-6. Chris Gragg in round 5 or round 6 sounds about right.

    Quarterback: rounds 4-7. UDFA a possibility.

    Offensive tackle: rounds 3-7.

    Corner: rounds 6-7.

    Safety: rounds 6-7, barring someone like Vaccaro reaching #25.

    Linebacker: rounds 2-5.

    An example of what that draft might look like:

    1st: DT
    2nd: WR
    3rd: DE
    4th: LB
    5th: T
    5th: TE
    6th: QB
    7th: CB
    7th: S
    7th: WR #2 or DE #2 or 5-tech
    Last edited by kearly on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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  • onanygivensunday wrote:
    kearly wrote:
    GoHawks wrote:Jesus Montero - please pick up the white phone


    ?

    Kip - If you weren't aware, Jesus Montero (Mariners catcher) is notorious slow and would benefit from your statements that running speed can be improved.


    Oh I know who Montero is. My statement was about guys going from HS to NCAA, so I didn't see the relevance with Montero. Montero is screwed in the speed category. Although as a catcher/1B/DH, speed isn't really a big deal. Hopefully Montero turns into a solid hitter. That's why they traded for him.
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  • aawolf wrote:
    Scottemojo wrote:Like Kip, I don't see Hopkins as the pick, but not because of a lack of athleticism. I could see them taking him later in the draft because they like his unique skills, just not the first. I think they won't take a first round WR unless he is a can't miss freak.

    Hopkins reminds me of John Carlson. He is what he is, not much development needed. High floor, safe pick.


    I'm sorry, but I disagree with both you and Kearly about Hopkin's value or his "ceiling". I think this dude is a flat-out playmaker and I want him more than Swope or Austin. The difference is that I saw Hopkins as the guy in Clemson's offense that you just knew was going to get the ball on third down somehow, and yet defenses just couldn't stop it. He was similar to NC State legend, Torry Holt, in this regard. You just knew he would make a play when it mattered. I'm sure Austin and Swope would be fine picks, but they didn't even get the most yards on their teams (Mike Evans at A&M got more receptions and yards than Swope and Steadman Bailey got more yards and an equal number of receptions at WVU). I'm just saying that I think Hopkins is more of a game-breaker than these two and I still feel he's worthy of our first round pick.

    I'd trade up to get any of them in the second if we can get an earlier pick though.


    The Austin-Bailey yardage/receptions number is a little bit skewed because Austin spent a good portion of time at RB the back half of the season because of WVU's struggling run game. (72carry for 643yds and 3tds...although really, it should be more carries/yards and less rec/yards because of that touch pass jet sweep)

    Bailey and Hopkins are more comparable than Hopkins-Austin though. Stedman runs good routes and just flat out knows how to get open....and despite not being a freakish athlete, he's able to use his body to maintain position. Plus his hands are covered in super glue. He catches everything.

    Tavon really improved his hands this year, and has gotten a lot better in his role as a slot guy... I wouldn't call him the over the top/deep threat/home run hitter type...he's got the speed to burn guys, but he's not going to outjump a lot of people 1 on 1. Sticking with baseball terms, he's the guy that steals home. In the words of....Maroon 5...he's got them moves like Jagger. He's got a few jukes he pulls that I've never seen before.

    His value isn't in his pure slot ability though...it's in his utility. He could replace an aging Washington in the return game and handle a few carrys a game as a change of pace back after beastmode wears a defense down
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