More like the entire bakery.

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Member formally known as AC59

I think you need to look at a lot of surrounding circumstances, Zeb.

Also, Kid, a significant number of those countries that are higher than us have stricter gun control laws than us. There are wildly different reasons as to why there's so much gun death in much of South America as compared to the U.S.

He's always using the number of guns per capita and not the number of gun owners per capita. Two different statistics which tell different stories.

Not that I blame him, I don't know if there is a readily available statistic for international per capita gun ownership. They all seem to use the total guns and total population numbers for the equation.

Making me no different then anyone else around here.

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Member formally known as AC59

This is why I added the portion about culture and socioeconomic conditions. I really think that plays into it much more than gun ownership or gun bans ever will.

Who's "people"? I brought up suicide because I was looking at the info and found it interesting. It says something about their culture. You keep looking at my points as though they're from an anti gun-rights perspective when they're not. Take them at face value and I think you'll get a little better idea of what I'm trying to say.

Roland said "explain Switzerland" so I did a little quick research. And for God's sake re-read your own comment "The reason there are lower numbers of firearm deaths in other countries is because those countries have very strict laws in the matter." What exactly is your argument again?

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Tanzania¹²

Like what? Tell me what I'm missing.

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Tanzania¹²

you weren't the only one who has mentioned suicide rates with firearms in this forum since we started up this debate, just trying to include everyone who brings it up. I realize you aren't calling for a ban on guns zeb, and didn't mean to insinuate that you were. I just wanted to straighten out the misconception that comes with that suicide statistic.

Well I think in the case of Switzerland the suicide-by-firearm thing is very relevant. They're the 4th highest in the world, at least according to that list. That has to mean something, doesn't it?

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Tanzania¹²

4th highest? You realize a lot of these countries don't even keep a suicide stat? It's not because they don't have them. But the thing is, suicide by firearm in and of itself isn't a telling stat, because suicides are rarely an impulse decision. Those who want to do it will do it, so the firearm is really no the point there. You'd have to look into the total numbers of suicides and the reasons behind them to try and really get to the bottom of those numbers.

More information in regards to Suicide statistics. Switzerland has a rate of 3.15 per 100,000 suicide by firearm, but their overall suicide rate is 11.1 per 100,000. So basically, only 28% of their suicides are by firearm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

WRONG!

Funny thing, since Switzerland has moved to keeping their militias arms in the depot weekend suicides have dropped by 40%.

Access to guns increases gun violence and violence in general. Whether you live in a peaceful country like Switzerland, a large and rather peaceful country like the US or a shitshow like Ciudad Juarez.

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RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012

Firearm suicides by firearm are only 28% of all suicides in switzerland, but you say that just putting the guns away on weekends cause a 40% decrease? You're crazy

I apologize, I mixed up a fact with something Israel had done.

Since Israel has stopped allowing soldiers to take their guns home during the weekends, weekend suicide amongst soldiers is down 60%.

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RIP ROAD WOES 12/2/2012

Sonic, how do you know that easy access to legal weaponry isn't keeping crime down more than it would be at if regular citizens couldn't have firearms in this country?

Before you give your automatic response to this, I want you to consider something. That something is that the United States has the highest death ratio of firefighters in the industrialized world. It has basically held that top spot for decades. Do you know why? It's estimated (not proven) that it's because of the American hero complex. American firefighters tend to do things they're not supposed to to save lives more than those in other countries. A true hero complex. I propose that, due to the history of how this country has come together, regular citizens have a bit of this complex in them by and large, as well; resulting in more instances of "random citizen stops robber holding up liquor store and holds him hostage until police arrive" kind of things. This is a hunch, I don't have data to support this; but I'm asking if you can reasonably refute it, because I don't think you can.

How do you know the U.S. wouldn't be an outlier, and that removing a lot of access to firearms won't result in more gunshot deaths at a national level?

People who are suicidal and don't have access to guns may look for alternate methods to do the job. However, only 9% of all suicides are effective, whereas around 90% of suicides involving a firearm are effective. Studies have also shown that after a failed suicide attempt, the person is not likely to attempt a 2nd time.

Again its not about placing blame on the gun or the person, but really on the effectiveness of the gun as a tool for killing. That's the whole point. Less access to guns creates an environment of less effective murder and suicide.

I think most of those "not trying a second time" ones are the cries for help type that wouldn't try to use a gun in the first place, 12evanf. Regardless, however, I'm sure there is a decent percentage of people that successfully commit suicide via firearm that, had it failed to kill them and they woke up in a hospital perfectly fine in terms of not having any brain damage, they wouldn't try it again. Really, though, this is a rather poor argument for gun control.

That's a pretty general hypothesis, though, on who is and isn't using a gun in suicide. I think an equal argument could be made for the time it takes to die. Overdosing on pills, slitting wrists, asphyxiation, all take much longer when compared to a gunshot to the head and are easier to come back from. In other words, they are all less effective than using a gun; a tool created to kill effectively. Take that tool away and people are forced to use more crude, less effective tools.

I just find it funny, because in the other thread the numbers he quoted were straight off of Wikipedia. I don't have a dog in the fight one way or another, but if you are going to use statistics to back your argument, at least do some critical thinking about what your statistics really represent. It would be one thing if he didn't know the number he is quoting doesn't actually mean what he thinks it does; but it has been pointed out to him more than once, and he still continues to refer to it in the same manner.

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Y'all might want to check your Switzerland facts.

Not every male over 19 goes into the military. They are not ordered to keep their firearms after their service is up. According to Wiki, only about 30% of Swiss households have firearms.

Here's another thing for those who think if everyone could have a gun, there would be less crime. This Country used to be that way...it was called the Wild West. How'd that work out?

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If you're walking on thin ice, you might as well dance.................................................Mom